cloudy weather over towards the north, east. 29 celsius in karen, those temperatures will fall further. as we go through the next couple days. rain sweeping through a top temperature on tuesday of 22 aah! from the al jazeera london broker center, 2 people in thoughtful conversation with no haste and no limitation. it will lead to the path of color. it was the struggle. here it would be much easier for me to make felt that white people either part here or in the canada and thing, a songwriter, skin, carry other people's way or is that in the minute you get way? don't you thought what you're doing and make one studio be antiquated on out there? the biggest protest, yes, against benjamin netanyahu is far right government and it's plans to overhaul the judiciary. along with the iran saudi deal, he's facing mounting problems at home and abroad. but how serious is, is whales,

political crisis. this is inside story. ah, hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan. huge crowds demonstrated in israel on saturday night for the 10th week running with some estimate saying that as many as half a 1000000 people turning out against benjamin netanyahu government at its plans to reduce the power of the supreme court. the new legislation would give parliament the power to override court rulings allow politicians to appoint judges and prevent judicial review of the basic laws that serve as his whales de facto constitution. fort supporters of netanyahu, it is far right allies. the policy represents unnecessary curb on activist judges. but it's caused dismay at opposition within his whales,

political and military establishment, as well as bringing hundreds of thousands on to the streets. i missed the demo system, sound my voice against the ship, the dead stop this year. in the name of the so called law judge called reform, it's not the judge reform, it's a revolution making is read, go to full dictatorship. and i want to say a democracy for my kids, for my grandson will be here because it is a democracy country and it's my stays with if you'll give the people and then you can expect them just against boy

said uncle obviously, i mean if we were i will minutes, i and i would be very worried that someone is going to fall back in the bass and they go to rights. same as a the guys in the community. and this is the executive as a israel doesn't want to be. we are protesting because if not it's, it's like compliance and we will never agree to have democracy abolish in this country. it's really important that we raise awareness all around the world of not just in israel, but all over the world. if anyone tries to do what they're trying to do, you, people will go out and demonstrate it's really important. and the concern extends beyond the protest us on the straight stays early. other countries president attack the planned cups on the judiciary as a threat to the countries political fabric. mcclockey cast shinny don k at nevada. the entirety of the legislation that being currently discussed in the committee

needs to be taken off the table and faster. it is erroneous, it is aggressive and it undermines our democratic foundation. this hell. most of the law i o. d ali came, are you all parties of the house bear the responsibility? the choice is one or either a disaster or a solution, i'm sure, but that will begin our discussion with our guests in just a moment. but 1st im ron con reports from tel aviv. the o guys is the protest. say there are about 500000 people in various different places, places like heifer televi, which to roost level. they were out on the streets. that's out of a population of about 9500000. so it's a significant chunk of the people that were out on the streets that is putting the government under a tremendous amount of stress. now the government for weeks has referred to the protesters as anna case on saturdays demonstration in television. i saw people with pratt placards with effectively that resume on a placard saying,

i served in these really ami. i've been a teacher for 35 years. and yet they call me an anarchist. however, for all of those types of slogans were all the polar political slogans. the vast overwhelming majority of people were carrying the israeli flag. this is a nationalistic demonstration that people are worried that democracy is under threats here. the digital reform bill will give the connect at the parliament, the power to overturn some supreme court decisions. and that's what's driving these protests and they are getting bigger and bigger every week. now that's worrying the government because if the government start seeing the seep into their base, that's very concerning for them. because remember, benjamin netanyahu and his far right coalition have a very strong base at this asylum. majority of people that support this government because they think it's an incredibly strong government. now benjamin netanyahu can still pass this bill. he has a majority in parliament as

a 120 seats. he has 61 of those. so the coalition holds. he will be able to pass the bill, however, is really present. isaac hertzog is looking for a compromise. he's looking to tone down some aspects of the bill and he's reaching out to people to try and be able to do that. whether he succeeds or not. that's a matter of internal internal israeli politics, but there is more pressure on benjamin netanyahu as well. political satirist suggests the one of the reasons he spending each weekend abroad. he was in italy last weekend, and there's room as he might be going to berlin this weekend. is that that's the only way he can get some respite from the protesters and the anger. he faces out in the streets here in israel. but there's something else as well. the saudi iran resumption of diplomatic ties. he opposition or using that to attack, press our prime minister benjamin netanyahu saying this was a failure of diplomacy on his part. and that this shows that israel is isolated in

the world because the, the makeup of this current, israeli government, whatever the truth of that it is being used to attack the prime minister and his coalition. but the prime minister is a tough guy, and he has this majority, like i say, of seats in parliament. so if he wants to pass this bill, he will try every trick in the book to make sure it will pass whether it passes in the form he once that's now up for discussion. emron con, out is era. the inside story. ah, lots to discuss. let's bring in our guests for today's program from tel aviv were joined by gideon levy porter and columnist at hot it's newspaper in haifa. sally albert podcast host and member of the leadership at standing together. the largest jewish arab grassroot movement in israel, and in jerusalem is gil huffman,

executive director of honest reporting, which combats what it sees as anti israel bias and international media. gillis, a former chief, political correspondent at the jerusalem post. welcome to you all, get in that stuff with you. well known is really politicians. epiphany says that the protest, i'm not just about judicial reform, it's about identity. it's about what israel is. it's a battle for the soul of the country as a democracy, is she right? it or? it is, as we heard from one of the protest us in the set up. there netanyahu becoming a dictator. disney's right. and in the same time that the nail is not yet becoming because the states are, but then you are linked to me for a meeting there at the framework. we are dealing who's a very impressive wave of protests on t dictator, sheet pro democracy in a bothered state. let's remember this before we get into the subject. by the end of

the day, it's about democracy to the juice. owing to the jewels and the teasing, pressing the destruction it is follow for, i don't to lead a supporting, been encouraging even being excited about it. but we should know for going for a moment or this is happening when a party is still here and has no intention to go. and even not mention in this protest. now back to question. yes, it is about the identity, the identity of the lease of this country. that entity then leads of this country, the societies toner and under the cover or a legal argument. there is much more under the service, but in the same time i wouldn't say that the neo is the state. oh, he's about to be got medicaid. but he's bearing tours, which might serve you one day to become one. sorry,

i saw you nodding in agreement that you might want to comment on what get in was was saying, organizers claim that the latest protests were the biggest in israeli history. they're clearly many people opposed to the governments judicial reform plans. but are they in the majority in israeli society? is there a silent majority who are actually in favor of what the government is planning to do? i'm not sure. i disagree with the k, the own i do. i think that the current and protest the way that it was led and the reason why it's so successful. and so loud is because it's leaders are the ones who are fighting it for their and for their privileges in many ways and for their identity. and for how they see, you know, they have a very strong ownership over is read. because if we see who these people are,

they are, you know, middle class plus veterans asking ozzy of from the center. never very strong sense of ownership over over a, you know, israel as, as a jewish state. um, so i don't think i, i disagree with him. i do think that the protests as they are right now, if you know, are, are becoming wider in coalition. we're seeing more and more protests that are getting really large in the paras varies with a more diverse ed and participation. and we are seeing some very, very little at participation of, of palestinians as citizens of israel. however, it is becoming a more visible and, and obviously i do think that we have is seen some kind of shift, at least in, in some parts of the protests that are talking about the connection between a,

you know, or the dissonance. let's say between protecting and the democracy, the israeli democracy and, and, and instead of that really talking about redefining a democracy and what that means really at which is ending the occupation and redefining that democracy, that the democracy and the supreme court in a way that doesn't maintain an apartheid system and so i don't disagree with that with big deal. i do think there is a, a positive shift, not sufficient, but definitely a positive gill hoffman opposition. neither yale or pete says the government's focused only on crushing is really democracy. and why does the government insist that these reforms are necessary? perhaps you could explain it to us to quote rain in the unchecked an unbalanced powers of judges do judges in israel have too much power. are they making decisions that go against the national interest? ok, so 1st of all,

my caveat is that i'm not here to defend or justify or take the side of these really government and its policies. i can explain them and put them into context throughout the years of the supreme court of israel. there have been very few minorities represented in part because of the way the judges are chosen. they're chosen by a selection committee in which the judges and their allies in the bar association had a majority to choose their own successors. and to many of them were white, secular, left wing people, mostly men choosing more white, secular, left wing people. and one of the aims of the people who support these changes is to make the supreme court more diverse. to have the members of kinessa choose them. whether the coalition really right wing or left wing at the time and have it better reflect that the people of israel who are, are among the most diverse people in the entire world. there is no attempt to

involve whether this would help arabs or not help arabs. that's not an issue that's being discussed, unlike what my counterpart said. and they do believe that will strengthen democracy and the rule of law. if instead of having elected officials that are supreme court judges make decisions, that the people will have more of a say. and what the protests have proven is that israeli democracy is actually very strong after having 5 elections in 3 and a half years that we're about personality politics about nathan. yeah. here you have people taking to the streets because they care about the future of israeli democracy. and we'll see if compromises will be made there meetings taking place right now. and hopefully they can rain in the consensus on, on what can still be changed to satisfy all sides. gideon, how much of this have to do with, with religion is fairly right. she, she noted that this perhaps is a battle between the classes, perhaps and in israel. to what extent does your background your economic

circumstances and how religious you are decide where you stand on this issue who lives in would be the 2nd though? the so the identification before the seats will be your ethnic identification. and then they're being came up with a lead or being from the lower classes, being jewish or not jewish. and only then come religion. yes, there is a division according to religion, namely between the sexual and their religious. where, why is this sexual sees the liberal sake? you have seen that too much is in both of them in terms of religion. israelis by far the most religious country in the worse than words so many things that people come from that which i can't believe that they see from not having a public transportation on southern thing to think that i cannot marry my

years when he should girlfriend. it is right because she's not jewish things with her any secular democracy. but this is not the front of the argument right now. as i say, the main thing is now we didn't mention the agent when it's an yo, as, as, as something which motivates many of the book. this does even though they won't say, but that the neo became the most hated. and the most beloved israeli politician ever i think, and those who hate him are ready to or anything to get rid of him that's. that's in the front of the struggle and then cause they have the legal question. are those legislations are really dangerous in the eyes of the protest those and by the end of the day they won't, they are desiring not to lose their dominance. it's about the dominance of their

skin as the elite in this country. when this supreme court was almost that it asked out, falls in reach their sch, can i see then a handle it and then dominated their fight? think now not to lose the last the last outpost. the story, little netanyahu and, and his motives here. sally, he came back to power one on trial for corruption formed an alliance with an extreme ultra nationalist group who previously on the, on the fringes of politics is all of this, perhaps a calculated attempt by him to avoid the consequences of his trial. does he genuine belief, genuinely believe in what he's doing? is it right or? or is this a political back file? i believe it's the latter. it, to be honest. i don't think it even anthony yahoo! it has that. and it really wanted, you know, the plans to be exactly the way they are. i don't think that he would have

contacted them the way they are at right now and would have avoided and at the same resistance. and this opposition to strong opposition, which is, you know, from the people what we are saying that it's obviously led by the elite. but let's be honest. this is a very, very powerful, loud he. derrick opposition at anees, rarely government one that we haven't seen before. so i do think that a, you know, giving me nothing, i would have avoided that and should he had the option, i don't think it has to do with his a court as much with his trial. and i do think there would have, he would have found other ways that there are many experts that would have found other ways to add to for him to avoid a trial. it's definitely a back fire in many ways. and, and i do think that's an, it's something he is in a little bit of a pickle, i would say,

absolutely kill. would you, would you agree with that? the government, pressing ahead with the plan in spite of these, these protests can it survive. willis ultimately lead to the collapse of the coalition. how long before will be rising netanyahu's political obituaries? again, bearing in mind that it was that it was quick to do so. the last time i covered politics for 24 years for the jerusalem post. and i wrote and now was a bit wary many, many times and it was proven wrong. right now it's really his justice minister that's pushing this forward. these are ideological issues that he your rib levine as care developed for a very long time. and nathan, yeah, perhaps initially empowered him to do it and perhaps revenge against the legal establishment that was prosecuting him. was part of that motivation, but now it's taken the life of its own and it's now as himself been prevented from dealing with it by the attorney general. will see right now there's pressure on

moderate elements within the liquid party. if you have 4 or 5 members of connected inside that we could who say this has gone too far, then perhaps it wouldn't pass into law. but i still think that there's going to be a compromise that what's past so far. early preliminary readings that don't pass it into law, there is still a 3 weeks before the method leaves on its pass over recess. and this is crunch time and that's why the president has gotten into high gear in putting forth his own proposal. that presumably would be what would be passed in the kinetic gideon is israel's democracy, broken with a succession of fragile coalitions propped up by a myriad of smaller, sometimes extreme parties to israel as entire system of democracy. do you think need an overhaul? is too old to insist that the and above that state cannot be

a democracy is fe bids rulers over 5000000 people who has no rights whatsoever. no citizenship, nothing can only then define this democracy. how can we calling to democracy? i mean, really a, this semester a must companies and coding. he's run a democracy as long as know who based was temporary. you hold coding to a democracy, was a military occupation with the 55 years what the mother, 5000000 people who has no rights. they, we don't count them. we don't see them there in boston of israel, date of great into israel. and i really, really use so if any discussion about a, the democracy in israel, like i want to accept the discussion in south africa about the democratic procedures among the whites. this is really outrages having say these,

i still think that these were foreign, jewish citizens isn't democracy. there is there the cracks out there, but i'm not up to the say, a proclivity descriptions that is really turning to i'm very turn key or go for be even russia notes here. we are in this past, but not yet. okay. i'm sorry. what you agree with her serious is as political crisis for i would like to israel. yeah. please. and you know, even as a phyllis indian activists, a hearing israel or not because i disagree with the, you know, conceptually, obviously, i obviously agree with that. with gideon about said the fact that we can't call israel democracy. but there is definitely democratic practices within a, you know, the $67.00 lines and the inside of israel in many ways limited for non jewish citizens, but definitely less limited for and for jewish citizens. and i do think it's also

less limited to many other marginalized groups. if we talk about of g b t q, right? if we talk about women, i do think there is a, it's, it's a little bit dangerous to come and, and the condition a, the protests right now add to or condition their legitimacy to talking about the occupation. we are obviously doing it all. we're putting all of our efforts into impacting the messaging and impacting a, the kind of a resistance that we want to see from inside. we do think it's an opportunity to build a new political current that can really re imagine a democracy and can challenge the current and democracy. and the way is that is rally jewish israeli public perceive it perceives it. i do think it's dangerous to completely dismiss it and talk about the dangerous and the threats of the current overhauled on that yes, limited and very flawed. a democracy that's within these read

a do it on saudi arabia's. when i signed an agreement to normalize to ties on on friday, that was a hammer blow. erin, i need to respond to what they would agree or remove ok. released are pleased to go . absolutely. so. so 1st of all, you've to bring in palestinian politics into this, the past and authority that controls those millions of people has some 1000 records in the 990. they haven't had an election since january 2005 because of the weakness of their own democracy. it has nothing to do with israel. and that's what caused the boss administration to lose power in cities in the west bank where they're supposed to be doing the police thing. and because of that, or israel had no choice but to go in, in order to arrest what the terrorist it has to do with the weakness on the palestinian side and not in these railey side. israel is a democracy. it's not apartheid comparisons to apartheid or offensive to the south . african black people are endured it. they wish they could have had black on their supreme court. if we have arab judges in israel,

who convicted israeli president and prime minister, it's as far away from a part time. ok. okay. go and i know i know the both gideon and sally shaking their heads, disagree, disagreeing with you there. but we're almost out of time and that's not the issue that we're discussing here. go, how serious is this political crisis? has it as israel faced a political crisis of this magnitude before? is it the biggest threat to israel since its foundation? so we have had many crises in israel politically, in the period of the oslo accords, in the withdrawal from gaza back in the 1950s when israel received reparations from germany after the holocaust in israel managed to make it through all those. and as you point out, there are distractions, and because of the fight being internal that's led to international issues like the fight against preventing the nuclear was ation of iran falling by the wayside. and

that is definitely something that puts israel security in jeopardy in the future. same question to you than, than gideon. i mentioned this, the round saudi arabia deal to normalized diplomatic ties, which must have been a hammer blow for the prime minister. some of israel, staunchest allies don't particularly like it's current government at the moment, would prefer to keep it at arm's length with problems mounting at home and abroad. how house out just how serious is this crisis? it is serious, but they as get a say the not the 1st serious crisis. again, they didn't mention the big crisis after the 73 war when the feeling cause that we are about to college. i, as i said, i don't see in those dramatic or composing k colors,

but there is these a great challenge. it's my lean into a terrible legal and social crisis, but in my own so. so it's not the reverse of, but we should not there is to make was going, oh no, but you know, few weeks so brought this are not changing the story. they must me some more steps to be followed. and then we will see, is it really a correct in the, in the basic of is read or isn't one of those crises that seem so terrible when they had been, and then something happens and they are almost forgotten, leaving very, very few side. so it's too early to judge ok that i'm afraid we must and our discussion, we're out of time. many thanks. indeed, gideon levy, sally abbot and gill hoffman. thank you for watching. don't forget, you can see it again at the program again at any time by going to the website at al

jazeera dot com for further discussion. john is that our facebook page that's at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. and you could join the conversation on twitter or handle at a j inside story from the adrian finnegan on the team here a doha, thanks for watching. we'll see you again. i thought ah ah . ready too often, afghanistan is portrayed through the prism of war, but there were many of canister thanks to the brave individuals who risk their

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