thing though, is freddy, that still carrying the remnants of the storm now it has been downgraded. that will continue to bring heavy rain into mozambie and malawi. ah. the coveted beyond well taken without hesitation, fought and died for power defines how well we live here. we make the rule, not them, they find an enemy, and then they try and scare the people with people and power investigators exposed is and questions they used and abused of our around the globe. announce dedira. a sports casters tweet sins one of the world's most respected broadcasters. spinning into crisis. the bbc suspends, then reinstate it's best paid star, promising a review of its own guidelines amid questions, over impartiality and political influence. this is inside stored.

ah. hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much m g m a crisis at the b. b. c has been resolved for now. it's presenter dairyland occur is to return to broadcasting a former star striker and captain of england. national team linux presents the bbc's flagship football show and is one of the u. k is best known public figures. his suspension followed a tweet last week in which he called the government asylum policy. immeasurably cruel and its language reminiscent of 19 thirties, germany, fellow commentators, analysts refused to work, resulting in a weekend of carnage on the b. b. c. sports programming. the compromise solution is an inquiry into bbc guidelines at a time when broadcasters are having to grapple with the private opinions of their

staff being shared on social media. the director general of the bbc, tim davey acknowledges that the corporations current social media guidelines contain gray areas. but he says, enforcing impartiality is a difficult balancing act. i can tell you any one who knows me knows that yes, 30 years ago, some political involvement, but absolutely not affected by pressure from one party or the other. that is not how we work editorially in the b b. c. it's a convenient narrative. it's not true and the impartiality guidelines would be equally applied in terms of being people critical of the left or the right. the issue is getting involved in party political matters and we apply that independently. linux took the twitter saying, i'd like to thank him, davy, for his understanding during this difficult period. he has an almost impossible job keeping everybody happy, particularly in the area of impartiality. i'm delighted that we'll continue to

fight the good fight together. will begin our discussion with our guests in a moment. but 1st, let's hear from john a hole in london. well, there been days of intense debate now over the bbc's decision last friday to effectively suspend star sports, presented gary linux. over a tweet he posted on tuesday in it, he compared the language being used around the government's new policy towards migrants arriving by small vote to the language used in 1930 s germany, it sparked an anguished debate over b b. c. impartiality. and particularly the question of how the organization may have been influenced by right we ministers of the right wing press or a right wing chairman government appointed, but with questionable links to form a prime minister boris johnson ad droves of linen because own colleagues stepped out of their jobs over the weekend in sympathy when it's all been resolved. now, sort of linux reinstated, director general tim davy has apologized to view as saying that gray areas were

responsible in the corporation. social media guidance. he's placed an independent review looking specifically at how he defect freelancer's outside the news arena, like gary lenika. ah. alright, now let's get all our guess. all of them are in london were joined by a white founder of ethical journalism network. cassidy key, a former refugee and human rights lawyer specializing in immigration and asylum law . and stephen barnett, professor of communications at the university of westminster and a former advisor to the house of lord select committee on communications, a warm welcome to you all. and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story, aiden. let me start with you today. did the bdc expect the level of criticism it got when it came to all of this? and how damaging, has it been for the bbc? no, i mean i think the babies were completely taken by surprise. i think, i think they, they walked into this con crush and it seems to me that they,

they just weren't aware of the consequences of what they were doing. it seems to me that they didn't realize they weren't aware of the, the double standards that were clearly being employed here in recent years. we've seen many t, v presenter and journalists who have expressed themselves robustly on social media . but maintain due impartiality when they're on the very land carrie, linda cose, who is a veterans and the use of social media has always been very, very careful about his on the pronouncements and therefore it came as a big shock and surprise when he was suddenly facing attack and there was a great perception that the the baby see was being influence heavily influenced by some government sources. and i think the perception of the baby se itself was being

bullied into taking action against linux. actually led them into the crisis that they found themselves and they made a complete mess of it because they didn't realize that they were stirring up something which would cause a great deal of anger internally and externally because of one that an attack on freedom of speech which is straightforward and to it was clearly being used as a diversion by some government figures to, to divert attention from the need for a proper public debate about an important piece of government policy. which, which was making a major shift in attitude towards migration. and which appeared to be ins, straightforward contradiction to britain's international human rights obligations regarding refugees in let me just follow up with you with regards to a couple of the points you may, you talked about from your point of view this an attack on freedom of speech but you also talked about the fact that, that, you know, when it comes to social media,

there have been other presenters, other journalists who utilize social media in a way that still maintains impartiality. first, i want to ask you how thin is that line these days? because you have this convergence between traditional media and social media, and it seems that that line keeps shifting when it comes to what exactly is acceptable for journalists to be putting out there on their accounts on social media. but then also how big of an attack on freedom of speech. do you think this was? look, i think he was a big attack on freedom of speech. there is a complete difference between the opinions that you give as a journalist working as a journalist, and i think everyone news presenter and others recognize that when they're on the, when they're representing the bbc in a particular format that they have a responsibility very party entity when they're off the, when they're acting as individuals, they have the right to express themselves freely and the b, b. c, have long recognized that you have big figures,

big figures like alan sugar or andrew neal, well known in britain, in media and outside media, who been able to express themselves quite robustly on the political matters. and the moment that gary limit does it suddenly the b, b, c, is in a state of panic. it gives me a perception that it is a sort of particular point of political view that the b, b, c has allowed his cell to, to deal with. the real problem here though is the lack of consistency in the way that the b, b. c applies and has applied its rules regarding doing party ality. the bbc has a strong, admirable ethical base in the way that it works. and that's built in reputation around the world as a premier broadcaster. but it's failure to implement it's impartiality rules in a consistent manner, has called those very rules into question, which is why we've got the message that we have today. and you're right,

of course there is a difference these days between social media and, and there's a very narrow line. so everyone has to be very careful in the way that they use social media. and i think gary linux has demonstrated that he is careful. he has taken his time over the years. he has been the subject of criticism. so he's learned to use social media with discretion and with a great deal of respect to the position that he holds, the babies he has found out the hard way, but challenging someone like this. what appears to be that the has to political pressure can actually lead to quite devastating consequences. stephen, bbc, director general, tim, davy sent an email to bbc staff. he said that it was a difficult balancing act to get right where people are subject to different contracts. and on air positions and with different audience and social media profiles, he also said that he recognized that there are gray areas which have caused potential confusion. so one aspect of this story and you heard aiden sort of make mention of this is the fact that gary linux is, is a freelancer or a contractor at the bbc is not

a permanent staff member. and some have suggested that that could mean that the bbc social media guidelines don't apply to him. but is that a distinction that would be lost on the typical viewer? i don't see why should be, i mean, 1st of all, i think we should welcome what is clearly a, b, b, c retraction. that hasn't it apologize for the lack of burst polls programming, but not for what? aden? quite right. he says is a complete mess that is entirely of the bbc's and making. and i think people are pretty canny these days and i think aiden got it. absolutely right. when he says there is people have the right to express themselves in their own personal capacities on their social media accounts, obviously within certain guidelines, assuming that they are not news presented or involved in news and current affairs.

and i think most license payers, bbc viewers, listeners would recognize that it's perfectly ok for gary lenika, allen, sugar jeremy clarkson. we could list a whole raft of b, b. c, non use presented to have their own views. they're entitled to their views. they're entitled to express them what they're not entitled to do to use their bbc platform . i. e. e. don't want to see gary linux talking about political matcher the day. and nor would he do that. but i think to start trying to effectively sensor a popular bbc figures for expressing themselves is, is, is actually a recipe for b, b, c. disaster. because what it means in the end is that you will exclude a whole host of popular on the screen talent from ever wanting to work at the b, b, c. and that will be pretty catastrophic for the b, b. c. as a universally a universal broadcast that with universal appeal,

even let me follow up with you and ask you about the difference here between the issue of, of impartiality and the issue of independence. because many who criticize the bbc for suspending your linux and did that. it was due, at least partly to right wing, political pressure being applied on the broadcaster. aiden was mentioning this a few moments ago as well as far as that, being the perception these days is that suggestion going to be damaging in the long run for the b b. c. and how much concern is there about that? yeah i, i think that is very damaging. i think there are 2 issues here. one is, is very specific political pressure and there is no question. the government, i think, is in trouble on this asylum bill, and is using it as a way to distract people from the fact that what they're wanting to do is in the international law unlawful. but i think the other thing that we need to

remember in the u. k, is the very insidious influence of the right. we national press. we have a national newspapers in the u. k. particularly the daily mail and the son, which her certainly used to be the highest selling papers and they certainly read frequently online, which are pretty uncompromising in their right wing starts, particularly on his use of immigration and asylum. and there is certainly some evidence that while the lenika tweets was sort of bubbling away under the radar a little bit, it wasn't until the front page of those newspapers really pushed the narrative that this is the b, b, c being outrageously part is an that it started to take off as a big story. so i think we should underestimate the power of those newspapers to set a right wing agenda and the importance of the b,

b. c. being able to stand up at to resist and be seen to resist those pressures. i think the other issue, by the way, that mud mud is all of this is the position of the at the current, bbc chem, richard sharp. who is currently under investigation? an independent vesta geishas for having a, his part in brokering a deal savings, a loan, a loan for the price, former prime minister, forrest johnson. i'm sorry to interrupt. i do want to get back that point with you in just a minute, but i also want to ask as about something you were talking about cuz you heard steve in there talk about from his perspective, the right wing national press a in, in the u. k. is pushing a certain narrative and there are growing number of voices saying that this controversy has been a distraction from the real discussion that needs to happen about a silent plant in the u. k. from your perspective, do you think that's the case? yes, i believe that there's, there's a huge coincidence that last week, only the illegal migration bill was introduced and following that,

immediately this controversy has ensued. so i think that there's a, there's a political agenda behind all of this. and we've seen through, out throughout history that when it comes to general alexa, a general that actions that there's a hype about certain people to appeal to a certain dynamic. and what better way to cause controversy by targeting the vulnerable groups of individuals in our society, which is the asylum seekers. so i do think that there is a political agenda behind this because otherwise, why would there be a political condemnation on gary and a legal and political perspective understand why and the other guys have explained it very well. so yes, because there are analysts who say that the government asylum policies are not going to deter people from trying to get to the u. k. from your vantage point,

will these policy policies actually accomplish what the government wants? will it in any way, curb migration? well, i mean we have to look back on national importers act, which was only introduced last year was received, were in a central 28th april. and i asked myself, my t and my team, uh, a reminder that occasion, which was the, one of the main policy points that they were pushing to reduce the number of a small boat passing through the english channel. and we've seen that it hasn't had any positive effect. in fact, this had the opposite effect to what, what it was aim for intended for because in 2020 the was there were only 8000 small, but crossings across the english channel in 2021. that was over 25000 and last year was over 45000. and this year is predict is going to be around $60000.00 or more

asylum seekers. so you can see that it hasn't had the effect that they wish to have, which was a deterrent effect. and i personally don't believe that it's, it's going to going to have the effect that was intended. and because even though they introduced, have said that this is what they want to do. i mean, the home secretary on the 1st page of the bill is that she's not even sure whether she can promise that the bill is confidential with the convention of human rights. so essentially saying that she almost those, those individuals, human rights won't be breach. and which was followed up by the u. s. t r, which is the body responsible for the national record community saying that it's a care breach that humans aren't considered. and so there's so many so many great areas and shortcomings in the bill is to

a point of when it's concerning, but frankly, embarrassing. alright, let's take a step back for a moment, gary, lena, committed another statement on small boats as his return to the b. b. c was confirmed, he said, however difficult the last few days have been it's simply doesn't compare to having to flee your home from persecution or war to seek refuge in a land far away. it's heart warming to have seen the empathy towards their plight from so many of you a, let me ask you about this. this tweet from gary lyn occur. would this suggest to you that no matter what the review of the bbc's social media guidelines ultimately find, mister lennox does feel secure in continuing to tweet his opinions, at least on this matter? yeah, i mean, i think he would. i think he will. absolutely. he really feels very strongly about it and i think in this particular case on reflection, he may have actually tweeted the 2nd part of the major point he was making in a slightly different manner. well, the,

that's the learning experience. but i think this political question is massively important. here. we have a major western government about to challenge the 1951 international convention on, on refugees, which is actually very, very specific. the international convention is very clear. it says that irregular entry into a country does not disqualify someone applying for refugee status. so it's very, very clearly a severe breach of international that's, that's one thing. and i think that the, the government is ready to admit that it is, it is going to be in breach of the law. but, but secondly, there's something really potentially damaging already. some countries in europe have indicated that they will be prepared to follow the british route in dealing with migration in the future. and that could lead to a domino effect, which could be devastating for, for the hopes and expectation of people who are fleeing persecution around the world. that europe would be a friendly place for them to go,

where international rights would be protected, maintain, unfortunately, i think that what we're seeing here is a possibility that that will be set aside as a final point. i want to make it only some why it's such an important political issue or the lack of self awareness within the b, b. c. among the leaders about their, their political connections i think has contributed to the her what i would call complacency in the way that they treated this issue from the start. it's not just richard sharp who has strong tory connections. tim davy has a history of connections with the conservative party and, and so on. so we know that the leadership, the director general and the chair of the baby say, have political connections and political history. that is not without some importance in looking at in the round how the b, b. c. have responded to this debate over asylum as steve and aiden was talking there about bbc leadership or being embroiled in this controversy right now. and i want to get back to

a point that you were making earlier. one complicating factor in all this is the issue of bbc's chairman richard sharp. he's a conservative party doner. he's been linked to arranging a loan for former prime minister boars. johnson. he denies any conflict of interest, but there are prominent political voices in the u. k. calling for him to step down from his role at the b b. c. how much does all of this complicate the controversy? how much does it der, potentially damage the bbc even further? well, i think it lends weight that this is the problem. it lends weight to the sense that the b, b, c is surrendering to a right wing, a government agenda, charges it before i. i piles that question direct because come back to some of the aiden said because that, that linda could, his latest tweet, i think, was really classy because what he, i think he was doing 2 things. first of all, he was saying in this, in the scheme of things, let's not forget the people who are really suffering. that's important. but the 2nd thing, i think he was, he was making it quite clear that he's not going to stop speaking. and if this

review comes up with some kind of formula that prevents him and people like him from speaking their mind on important moral issues, i think he's effectively said i'm out of here. and i think that's, that's really important. so sorry i, i just wanted to make that point as a, as an addendum, but just coming back to what you were saying about what you're asking about the complication of see the a, b, b, c members and the chairman and, and others. as i say, it lends weight to the sense that there is a one sided agenda and what we've heard really since 2016 in the case is the bread . it referendum is this sort of drum beat of complaints coming from the right about a liberal bias, a mot metropolitan elite. and the problem with that constant drum b is that i think what you get within the b, b, c. and it's happened over decades at the over the 100 years that they look over

their shoulders and they think this is what the ruling party is saying about us. this seems to be something this, that in the air. and therefore, there is a, a tendency to overcompensate to go too far the other way. so i'm not sure there is . i think there is a problem with too much conservative with a capital c influence of the top of the b, b c. i think there's a more important cultural issue which is lucky over their shoulders and being too careful about whether they are going to somehow a put also the, the people that it in government they, they can to alienate members of the government. i think there's been a real shift in politics in this country and the bbc is actually in danger of looking really out of touch with new politics. kaz aiden was speaking earlier about and the potential impact that migration policies in the u. k. could have on other

countries throughout europe, and i wanted to ask you from your vantage point, how much concern is there about the impact that migration policies in the u. k. could have on other countries? well, from, from the, from like legal perspective, we have to understand that at the moment with the robin, the litigations, all eyes are on us to see what the outcome of that would be. so that other countries or the european countries and implemented into the legal system as well. so the all eyes are on us. so having to have that sort of pressure on us. we try to a form. and sometimes when you're trying to do that, you try to do more than you can chew, you can buy it, you buy more, they chew. so that's essentially what is happening at the moment with the migration bill where. ready they're, they're just trying to get these and,

and try to resolve this issue by making and setting a. ready sort of targets that they cannot meet and that can be quite dangerous in terms of how the political system that you have in place and sorts of people that they try to appeal and the international logic fit into your pin community. i guess let me also ask you, you mentioned the want to plan, so i want to get to that a little because last april, the u. k. government put into place a program to deport irregular asylum seekers or wanda to apply for asylum there. that plan was deemed legal by the u. k. is high court, but the european court for human rights intervened, and they prevented flights carrying migrants from taking off to rwanda. where does that stand now? is the legality of that measure, still being debated in court. that's

a good point actually. yes. so yes, we got into really last year which prevented the from taking off. we went to the high court and now next month there's a hearing for date in the quote, the appeal where the weather litigation there on that occasion will continue. so that is still pending. and going back to the point of the legal migration bill, they're saying that they can return individuals to that, to the country that they travel through. we don't have a european countries following back that we don't have access to your doc based database. and even though i wish to not did agree law last week with a 480000000 pound deal for asylum seekers, vulnerable asylum seeker must add in detention center. so we don't have those the returns agreement there around the litigation is ongoing. they kind of remove

individuals to rwanda. they cannot possibly be returned to the country where they are fitting for what they claim in tough situation. and so it just leaves them both . so that the puts a strain on the right on the and on the, under the governmental. all right, well we have run out of time to we're going to have to leave the conversation there . thanks so much to all of our guests in white cassidy key. and stephen barnett, thank you. and thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website or dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also, during the conversation on twitter handle is at a inside story from him. how much of a whole team here and go ha ah

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