here, temperatures about 4546 degrees, and to southern africa we go. we can still trace out remnants leftover as of storm friday once again back in the most and b channel and looks like a whites and windy day for south africa, south coast on wednesday. okay. my time's up. i'll see you in a bit. ah. coveted beyond? well, taken without hesitation, fought and died for power. defines our, well, we live here, we make the rule, not them, they find an enemy, and then they try and scribble people with the people empower, investigate, exposed it, and questions they use them to be use of power around the globe on out. is there a decade long conflict in a region rich with natural resources?

millions of people have been killed in eastern democratic republic of congo, and millions more have been displaced. can this region ever find a lasting peace? this is inside story. ah. hello there and welcome to the program. i'm laura kyle, east and democratic republic of congo has been in the state of conflict for more than 20 years. more than a 100 armed groups of fighting government and regional troops in the area. 5.6000000 civilians have been forced to flee their homes. and united nations security council team has just concluded a 3 day visit to the country. it called for a political solution to end the fighting. dozens of people were killed and the most recent attack by one main group could be allied democratic forces, which is reportedly linked to iso and fights us from another major armed group. m

$23.00 have been taking territory and inching closer to the regional capital goma. we'll get to our guests in just a moment. first, let's take a closer look at this region. resource rich democratic republic of congo is ordered by rwanda and uganda, which are both accused of backing armed groups fighting the congolese government. they, these are charges they deny. m $23.00 and the allied democratic forces are 2 of the most prominent armed groups in the area. while an 8000 people have been killed in the last 5 years. regional mediation efforts have failed to stop the conflict and some un troops. i've also been accused of killing civilians. i'll begin our discussion in just a moment. first, malcolm web reports from nairobi and 23 as continued advancing in recent weeks. and it's effectively encircled the provincial capital of goma. as it fighters move through mis cc territory, tens of thousands of people have fled before thing. the m 23 fighters have rounded

up the villages and executed them clearing out the entire community to the now joining the already 800000 people. displaced by this conflict, and 23 is widely understood to be back by neighboring wonder who they were one that denies it to the north around the city of many thousands of civilians have been killed in the last week. the allied democratic forces adf is widely blamed as it has been for killing thousands of civilians in that area over the last 10 years. now, group that originate from neighboring uganda and the 1990 gun, this army pushed it into the forest. the beast and congo, where it in bay ever since. a recent and ongoing ugandan military operation extensively the few and defeat the adf, hasn't stopped the violence against civilian regional peace efforts so far haven't worked and 23 hasn't bade regional calls for fighters to withdraw. and disarm it

has withdrawn from a couple of small towns and none of them as strategic. important. meanwhile, the east african regional forth also hasn't yet made any difference kenya and burn the have said troops other countries in the region to do to follow. but it's not clear if any of the true contribution countries have either the political will or the resources to actually fight and $23.00 or even rwanda in hong kong is due to whole presidential parliamentary elections at the end of the conflicts in the eastern provinces may prevent polling. meanwhile on goes opposition. says that there are already massive irregularities with the voter registration process. malcolm web, the inside story. ah, let's bring in august now and in the eastern connolly city of goma. reagan may vary

a conflict analyst at a blue tele, that's a company's research institute in johannesburg, stephanie walters, a senior research fellow, specializing in the great lakes region at the south african institute of international affairs. and in contrast, her angel to conway a tango the you and refugee agency ref, representative in d r. c. a very warm welcome to all of you, reagan, let's go to you 1st. you want that in go me at the latest reports, all that m 23 is advancing on that regional capital city. what's the situation? yes. didn't go out. there is the fear. i've did your trade and you joined the studio, but this has been ongoing for. busy the last. busy 4 weeks now, so yes, there is these are. 6 so there is an economy crisis because that gets to the city and street on the north side into the west side. and you know,

i've said it's off the who and then there is rhonda. ringback side, so go my looks to be, you know, i, in a place where they don't have access to a ocean city or has a atn in the situation. in that case it was very close to grandma. there is a fight. so people, 3 or 4 lives in columbia, is that the belief and goma that m 23 well overrun the city? yes, i must show that they have interest in getting in the city, but the thing they have in place, in closing all that gets. 1 are the city and the government to position that

they that we have to negotiate to same situation in the city, which is one but because city tell me what, what is it exactly that people are faring are they faring m 23 themselves? are they ferrying the fighting more generally? so i think that to but you none of us when you come to get and did you ever blame me and going to see for the suppression planning, but they did not know what it was a lot of russian by rhonda and 23 and then one of the solution to, to make sure that i need is waiting be is 5 in the new 40. some are both really accepting

was fish and dogs as well as about government has been saying that she had. and they asked for the end to depreciate both from the. busy i've been, they should have felt fine, but he's been, we've been a fairly fair beds and there is no e in in this. got me. i'm not sure that we have them. that's good to move on that or yes. so i think the still a challenge cried, we will certainly look more at these failed efforts to stop the fighting a little later in the program. just for the moment angel, i want to focus on going on this particular area. it's a city of 1000000 people were talking about a lot of people here. the gates

a close to the city. the roads have been cut off. what's your concern for the people that? yes, thank you jennifer. yes, we did. deeply coach consent by the tone of the country on hundreds of displaced persons. this conflict which had resumed for the past year. nearing the 28th of march when there was a functional quantity. there have been more than 800 how nearly displaced persons. and these are really cute. they are leaving nowhere. they lack busy needs, including bringing purple water, food, shelter, everything. and they are truly at risk of their life because some of them paying you know, by the highways whisking, they are to be killed by

a cough. but the traffic and exposed to the natural edmunds. these are made mostly by women and children who are complete, living what not, leaving a normal life. we've no dignity, nor safety at all. this is just a situation. a has been ongoing for too long. we need to seize, we really call much as we would like to continue with these persons, including just basic shereka and busy many piece of every gate. we literally actually do not have access to most of them. and that's what i want to say because we're hearing that agencies already overwhelmed by the numbers of

people who are needing a many of these agencies the operate house of dome or the regional capital. if the roads are blocks to and from goma, how can they then access any body? what precisely, what i will say we already are not able to access the few by ot, because it has literally been all right, especially if you were to zones and even we with them by air on to you, not too long when also you have any kupta was quiet act thankfully we've a little dumb bridge, but indeed that also signal and not as tech of the come, whereby do heavy cop to off the minute. i'm no longer spec, so we are, we will be attending point. where buys we court to the teachers?

the critique counsel was just yet last week to say, we need humanity to your soul for lasting peace, to be buried in my aim is termed yazzy in this region, because that is really what would be beneficial for you. mattie and stephanie, stephanie way, it seems like a dire situation is about to get very much worse. why is m 23 advancing at a time when the congress army is just been boosted by east africa and forces you've got kenyon truth specifically brought in to fight and 23 rebels seem to have made any difference. well, i think one of the things that we've seen this time around and we, it's important to remember that the last m 23 crisis was almost as bad. and that was in 2012. what we've seen this time around and what you and has also acknowledged, is that the m 23 is stronger than it's ever been before. and we had been to cato,

who's the head of the un peacekeeping mission in the d. r. c, saying that it's almost operating like a conventional army. so clearly the support that's being provided by rwanda is substantial. and i think that we, we've known for many years at the colonies army itself is a very weak army. it's facing, of course, a number of different arm groups and the new newly deployed kenyan forces are only one of the troop contributing countries. i think that it's unrealistic to expect them to push back the m 23 on their own. of course, they are working with the un and with the force intervention brigade. but one of the arguments are one of the, one of the criticisms of the, of the canyon forces and of the east african community forces, is that they are in fact creating buffer zones between the colonies. army and the m $23.00, which are effectively allowing the m $23.00 to continue to gain territory. that's very interesting. let's take a step back from this for a moment. stephanie, just to look at who the m. 23. all because as you said,

they were around in 2012. there were disarmed 10 years ago. why have a lisa office last year and we grouped and come back so strong? well, i think the real question is why has has we're wanda chosen to reactivate the m 23 and the m. 23 is a group also, of course of kang leaves fighters. they themselves will say that this is a domestic agenda that they are not back by rwanda. and then they have aspects of use agreement that were, that were, that was signed in 2013 have not been met. for example d, d r and their return to, to the eastern d r c. and that they also have concerns about the congress took the community. but the reality is that the m 23 is this strong and was reactivated at a time in late 2021 by rwanda because of a variety, a number of different regional developments. we had uganda and d r c, agreeing on a road construction project that reached down towards the rwandan border. this was considered a threat by rwanda. we also had the entry into the d r. c. shortly thereafter, in march 2022 of the earth into the east african community,

a community that rwanda has been part of for many years. and we also had the deployment to eastern congo of ugandan troops in as part of operation shooter to, to go after allied the democratic forces. so a number of regional developments that in many people's views, threatened rwanda's hedge, a monic standing in the region. and we're one has responded by, by essentially supporting the m $23.00 and re launching this at this offensive, which is now closing on to 18 months. yeah, very interesting. indeed, reagan, when we talk about this eastern democrat, eastern african force coming in. and what i need to hear about kenya as stephanie says, talk about you canden forces on golden forces, not saying they're going to come in down to dom force and perineal forces. it's an awful lot of countries coming into this region. what do you think of that? what are people in goma? think of all these other nationalities come in to join this fight?

yes, i think at the beginning there were some, i hope that the sub peer now we know that the original or you know, t up to fights and they made that clear that made that not to fight against. wow. that's one of the big government's asking full. and that the reason why you can given that so much shots are failing because there is everyone something that yes one can you call me on government asking for the regional government decide on he's he's side a guess you guess and can read beyond is not ready to do that you bond is not ready to do so that's make this initiative to be

something that will not have any results because you are here to. 2 you said the, but the buffer zone, it means that there will be, have been going to pre, that's what people all see it in gamma. so that's all you can use is a bit different, difficult to get as people for different things. and right now when we saw the negation from the un, they exactly, that's been said that the government should think about negotiating with m 23 the, the government's not ready for that. and also we know that we looked at our growth in electoral europe and the government is not ready for that. i'll be back in that position. he's a guest negotiation against dentistry we we did. busy

with india and mall done well, 70 percent of kimberly's. don't think that's a good idea to have it should cause this has been going on for so long and the m u 3 has been evolving, but all different dogs and these didn't resolve the situation and didn't prevent that current position to happen again. i mean, so many failed piece initiatives in the past to angela will tragedy here is that this is a region that is so rich in natural resources. resources that the people that should really be benefiting from. yes, indeed, a thought on parable. and for me, i say this has been going on for 2 non re almost dictates of unrest,

of memory, of healing. if you believe that between 10000000 to whatever the median person have perished in this, a long conflict and sense most violent more than i around 5.8, maybe other person please. not literally leaving a normal life for us. we call for how many more kids and more named and more displeased would that you might have to wait for before can speak in the, the, to this sense. but byron, and i would like to ask you a question. when you say humanity, you mentioned humanity a number of times. now, who are you actually referring to? when you say humanity, i to call it 1st i need to do next. i have the

security council international community as it was just a year. and besides, the role is to foresee autumn, pre into national and security, the company, you know, we know it's very complex for about the country. it's 1st the stakeholders inside the big cord of around it and the pick of the father. so that's where i call you money because i believe in for this country to both of you find a solution it takes about a little but resolution talking with the so the next best and those 5 the be including not to be the security council. ok. well, let's count so because they have just been to visit the region and they've called for a political solution. but as reagan says, most people don't believe that

a political solution is possible because no one is willing to sit down. what are your thoughts on that? well, i think there are different actors who should be involved in a political solution. for my perspective, i think what we need is a dialogue at a regional level. we need dialogue between uganda, rwanda burgundy, and the d. r. c. the for core, great lakes countries who have been part of this conflict for the last 3 decades. we've seen persistent interference by the neighbors and eastern congo variety of reasons, economic, political, to some extent security. but the, the brunt of the suffering that is happening is happening in the eastern congo civilians in eastern d, r. c, who are, who are living the consequences of these regional tensions, of these regional rivalries and of these unresolved political issues. so for me, we need to have a dialogue at a political level. we also need rwanda at some point to acknowledge that it is supporting the m $23.00. otherwise we're not going to get out of this acute crisis and the crisis might become even worse. now what we did see this weekend was the un

security council, recognizing for the 1st time as a body rwanda's role in supporting the 23. that's certainly a step in the right direction. we've seen bilateral actors do that in the past, but what we haven't seen is any kind of mention of punitive or course of efforts or measures that might deedra wanda, to actually withdraw support from the n 23, which is something that we did have in 2012 and that certainly contributed to resolving that question. so i think we have 2 different issues here. we have the acute crisis right now with the m 23, and then we have the long standing drivers of conflict in the great lakes region, which mean that for the last 30 years, eastern congo has been the scene of ongoing conflict. and the pressure winder can come from the international community at large reg, unless return to can shatter. we've got present jessica, katie, he's sitting 2000 some, 2000 plums away from the violence. the how engaged is he? how much of a priority is this? for him to sort out. yes,

we can say that's right now about the main priority. i think the how does it work out on the ground? i think 40 to got to get everyone every 40 to shenise speaking about the wall. not enough. give all but the stuff that had been put so far, i was there in the spirit of this see age, which i'm going gotten enough keeble and you need tory but it didn't room. there is also the whole parisian be to me and you don't have enough in the region i do without that. so, and the other thing is that the only don't waiting that's meant involvement of rwanda, which i'm sure,

but beyond that that we've seen that need to be done. but companies everyone should have all responsibilities that international community as we bed should have a responsibility. the region has been called out yes, without the full regional dialogue. i think in that nothing which is really boring but also the companies the men should try to resolve problems all. be the army you ok? i just want to remove from the moment because we have already have time and has an area that we haven't talked about, and that is the other 100 armed groups fighting in this region, and one that's all corresponded mountain web mentioned. the adf allied democratic forces. we also recently, it was very brutal attacks by them. stephanie, how have they become so strong and why are they operating in this region?

well, they've been there for many, many, many years. i mean, they were there even before the war that overthrew mobutu, but largely they became a threat to the population in the area around benny dutempo in the last 10 years. now, there are many different theories about why and how the adf have become so strong. we don't know as much about that movement as we need to know. we do know that they've declared allegiance with, with iso, and that i still has provided them with some, some support, but not very much. fundamentally, they are able to live off of informal taxation, network smuggling, and economic activities and areas that they control and, and certainly that, that would seem to be their objective is not necessarily conquering territory, but controlling the area that they are currently in. uganda has argued that they are a threat to the ugandan government. i think potentially that that is an exaggerated assertion, because the adf really hasn't been able to launch any kind of attack on ugandan

territory for over 10 years. we did see some bombings happening late last year. we don't know to what extent, really, the adf was operationally involved in that. but certainly, prior to that, and still to day, the adf is a greater threat to calmly citizens again than they are to ugandan citizens. and we've seen this joint operation operative today between the colonies army and ugandan army, which as reagan said, has not yet born much fruit. okay. as out of the norwegian, refugee counselors again and again, ranks d all c, as the wells most overlooked under addressed refugee crisis. would you agree with that? definitely. yes. especially in regards to internally displaced persons. but also of course we have close to 6000000 person. we're internally, des, space. yes, and we do have about a 1000000 convo lease, who have thought asylum in neck, but in counties or at all persons dream east or back to the area

of origin to act long. last, possibly a normal life. and this might only become possible once the cons may have been silence once peace, lasting peace would have prevailed. that is why we really call and then what we call on behalf of all the suffering. this is person for lacking peace, could prevent really, it is more than time that the war, the stakeholders would agree that peace is what is needed in the best interest or every one, including the suffering force out there and indeed themselves, the stick orders ended. ok, well on that note we will leave it there. many thanks to our guest reagan, my very stephanie walters and angel to conway, a tango. and thank you to very much for watching. you can see the program again any

time by visiting our website that's out there a dot com and for discussion to go to a facebook page that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. it was during the conversation on twitter handlers at ha, inside story from me, laura kyle and the whole team here in doha is 5 ah ah, al jazeera, with ah, holding the powerful to account. as we examined the u. s. is row in the world on al jazeera with

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