disturbances which brings cloud and rate and significant change the feel the weather. that's what they're doing. so for example, almost anywhere in pakistan you could see rain even as far southwest karachi during saturday, little less or one sunday, but it's still there. i imagine is quite welcome. ah, iraq, a nation riddled with land mines and an expert dedicated to defusing them, one by one. equipped with only a knife and the pair of wire parties, the faces death every day. but does his work make him a hero or a target witness? the minor on a just 0 and on man's us drone crosses into the black sea after being pursued by russian fighter jets. it's the most serious incident

involving the 2 superpowers directly. since the thought of ukraine war, is it just a one off or a more serious escalation? this is inside story. ah. hello there and welcome to the program. i'm laura kyle. russia and the u. s. are presenting different versions of how a u. s. surveillance drone ended up in the black sea. it came down on tuesday after being pursued by russian fighter jets near the russian annex region of crimea. the us defense department has released edited video taken by the m q 9 we per drone. it shows a rush and su, 17 fighter jet, approaching, and dumping fuel. as it passes us says the unmanned drains propeller was struck,

forcing it down, and that it had been operating in international airspace. the russian defense spokesman had a different version of what happened. all them to little. so martha decor showing them. on the morning of march 14th, 2023 russian air force control systems detected in american m q. 9 drone flying over the black sea near the crimean peninsula, towards the russian state border of the unmanned aircraft was flying with its transponders, turned off, and violated temporary restrictions to air space usage set for the special military operation. on november, those restrictions were passed to all international airspace users and published in accordance with all norms. fighter jets from the on duty air defense force were scrambled to identify the intruder level as a result of sharp maneuvering at around $930.00. moscow time. the m q 9 drone went into uncontrolled flight with a loss of altitude and collided with the surface of the water. i want to underline . russian fighter jets did not use their on board weapons. did not come into

contact with the unmanned aerial vehicle off and returned safely to bay silver. oh, let me know. will close encounters between russian and u. s. military aircraft, a not uncommon. this is the 1st time it's happened. joined the ukraine wool. both sides in contact me that the off to had seemingly to avoid an escalation, but publicly that has been little sign of reconciliation. on tuesday, russian aircraft, again engaged and dangerous, and reckless and unprofessional behavior. in the international airspace over the black sea to russian jets jumped fuel on an unmanned u. s. m q 9 aircraft conducting routine operations in international airspace. and one rush and jet struck r m m q 9 aircraft, resulting in a crash. this hazardous episode is a part is part of a pattern of aggressive rish, risky and unsafe actions by russian pilots in international airspace will surely

cook the season. you have heard representatives of the pentagon and the joint chiefs of staff, so the united states will continue to fly wherever it pleases, in accordance with international law. but if you follow this logic than the space around the united states has the same status as the space over the black sea. ah, let's bring in our gas now and in moscow. pavel falcon, howard defense and military analyst in portsmouth, peter lee, author of reaper force inside britain's drone wars and n. belfast alexander t. 12 lecture in modern european history at queen's university belfast of a warm welcome to all of you. but we'll, let's start with you because the u. s. says, just in the past hour or so before recording inside story released a video of this incidence over the black sea usaa saying it proves their version of

the events. what do you make of it? o for borrow more or less? yes. if the parent who shows that one of the blades of the pro power of the american draw on them q and i and i was it, it's deformed a bit. and that more worse shows the under the russian just we're flying very close . kind of skidding of the drone. of course there's a lot of, there's a difference in speed. drones fly, much lower speed than jets on the speed that the drone flies are with its prop jet. can't fly falls out of the sky tested for i thought a far, much quicker. and that means when they encounter it kind of fly by on high speed, then that's dangerous. and apparently there was a small mistake in the pilot thing by the russian there. by then,

there was a minor collision, the american drone that didn't disintegrate the disintegrated where they hit the water, but it was a couldn't to fly home. the russian point didn't fly home. so no lies were was that's the good news. and peter, the us says it was wet class. that was unprofessional. do you all say thing? because paddle says that it was a mistake. yes, i think it was probably a deliberate act to get as close as possible to the need for growing. it's also reported that fuel was dumped on the draw that is quite quite possible as well. and perhaps the iraq and pilots thought if the flu close enough to the, to the be the backwash, the jet wash from the engine would be enough to throw the reaper into some kind of maneuver which was either dominant or at least this 3rd bit is trajectory so i

think there was probably a miscalculation in going so close that eventually the russian aircraft hit the propeller, and the propellers are very bright. charlotte, that speed the easy to damage a large berg with damage to propel it and possibly destroy it. so it does not need a great amount of contact in order to render the propeller dysfunctional alex, if, if indeed there was a minor collision that between the jet and the drone. what impact might that i've had on the jess while difficult to say mister the judge has returned to the base and there's been no crash from what i have wrapped. you know, it's all very starch in goal of fuel to beat us either way. you could have damaged itself more than just with damage itself, more than the damage the drone. so you have very high risk for both for the pilots

. and of course there was a pilot in russian and jets, unlike an american one. so yeah, was he seems to be very kind of high risk when you were probably not totally intended. but i think what we can please say is that the was intention to intercept the drawn to give a message to be going to be quite aggressive around. it's not a service or a bring it down, but certainly to me, to interfere with it's off of flight. so i guess for the russians, as long as the, their own plane is not damaged or you know that that was a bonus. that the whole thinking down and became going to quite a big event to begin rushing, you know, to stay in the, in the russians because they want to send a message. they said, when did that? yeah, they said, i think it's important to mention we haven't. so far that this, it wasn't just to slide by that we saw this was going on for between 30 to 40 minutes, according to the us. it seems like quite a deliberate action. would you agree, peter?

yes. these kind of russian actions with fast, yet another aircraft, has gone on for generations. it's a cold war actor. so right up to the present day. and if i, this last, they are so near is tonia, russia, russian forces use, use their craft to probe the air space of other countries, either violating the air space or flying down to close to the air space to see how long it will take for the response to test for reaction will happen. so this is part of an ongoing culture, the russian air force types of testing an opponents and invest cities and speed of response level responds. willingness to respond to respond. so all of the factors will come into into consideration and it is important that the reaper went down, but for the russian aircraft itself, the underside of a fast jet is actually very strong. that's where you have to have the support from

the landing gear. if you're hanging weapons underneath that has to be incredibly strong. so i would expect, structurally, there would be a little damage and perhaps a little bit of stuff is damaged to the underside of the russian aircraft. ok, above, what was the message? do you think that russia was trying to send to the us through this incident? well, what didn't previous are some encounters with nato ships and planes over the black sea russians. what kinds of harassing those who they believe are going to closing to. ready crimea in particular, and the hopes that people will turn around and go home. but she does not want them for american and they're so, so of course british and french re. com planes. oh, so pilot planes, big ones, life of poseidon,

flying in though over those waters and so they don't want them there. and they want to send a message that they could be harassed and that this would put pressure on the pilots on the command turned around and go. that's what they are trying to do. that's why for a long time they were over flying. the intercepted drone, no pressure to pressure rise, the pilot who was piloting it of course or remotely, to turn around and go home. and this mentor went a bit wrong because there was a minor collision. and that's very dangerous because a fighter plane costs much more than this, not in the rape or joe drone, which is not basically the cutting edge of the newest american drone. and of course there's a pilot on board and trading a pilot takes well, a decade, a good pilot, i mean, and they were in risk and they could have been lost and that would the the know. so

i don't believe that this was a deliberate ramming, and this was a mistake, an accident. ok, alex like if he wants to jump in that will i think, yeah, i think those you need to also be mind that the statement by the, the russian ministry of defense saying that they've drawn was flying in what he declared to be an exclusive zone specialist exclusive for these special military reasons. so basically we're trying to do so there's a national, it's very confusing and also eventually dangerous class, because of course, ross claims premiums. it's only not recognized by the united states. so technically, you know, united states go by the letter of law can fly over crimea because it's ukrainian generators because the americans are concerned. but they don't doing that. so this trying to kind of completely international waters. but at the same time ross, instead of trying to expand the exclusion zone and sending

a message tonight is united states and that, that they are going to serious about them and finding it. so i would imagine that, but from actually what happened, you know, you will really have this issue or further potential voice collation between russia, united states. this is the way it's important is because it's the 1st time there is a direct line between american, your military and the russian military, even if it wasn't mand so. so we just a reminder that this is a very precarious circumstances, and there is a potential for this collection. if both sides make a decision to, to go for it. so when i was agreeing with something that said, let me just bring them in and bring a point phone. what was not really a crash because weapon systems are not used by any side. so it's not yet

a clash. it's an accident. a show that them yes, this is a dry run. okay. we only saw can we've got the new side. so we've got that it's an accident and that it was a crash. peter was still thought. 5 this was not an issue because weapons were not used right, but weapons could be used. there could be american or british recon, plains prying in the same area with fighter escort and act actually that has already happened as we could see. a crash between fighters of both sides well doesn't indicate an issue of what again and they didn't what can happen in the future? absolutely. okay, peter. any of these confrontations? there are interests happening at multiple levels at the same time? i actually think the, the more interesting and possibly the most important part of this is not the physical contact between 2 aircraft and the dining of the patrol. i

think possibly the most interesting and relevant aspect is the clash between the way that the us is interpreting international law and the way russia is interpreting and trying to apply international law. russia is declining anerio, special military operations but, but that does not hold legal strength in the same way as the historical right to, to fly in international airspace above international water. so within 12 nautical miles of the cost of over in states. so we see russia trying to exert this right to declare an area of special interest and the united states making consecutive effort to deny that right. and to keep on existing, establish norms in international waters to fly over the waters to sail ships in the waters. and it's the same kind of work that the united states is doing in the far

east, where credit is denying china claim to 2 parts of the south china sea. so the nice space, as well as our creations and it's interesting ukraine, russia war. it also has a global interest in keeping open the waters of the world for ships for civilian ships, for military ships to use as long as the international waters, which suggest that we might see the u. f. continue to fly drones in this area thickly to make the point that it does not recognize crimea as russian. all the 2nd row keep flying drugs. and with the united states defense budget, this is a can be treated as a dispos boy. and i think for the us to be able to produce the video footage from, from the drawing itself. that is, it's a bit of our psychological and political and operational coo for the united states

. they can actually demonstrate that the, the russian aircraft was passionately flying in an unsafe, unsafe manner for the pilot. never mind the drone, and that russia was, was in the united states sides breaching international. i think that we're beaching it's a national law. but that is obviously going to be disputed by the russian leadership . ok, alex, well, i think there is obviously the dimension pretty much negation and whatnot. but, you know, with this drawn slides, of course, they are gathering intelligence which they are watching through ukrainian so they can use against russian forces. old there is a kind of by substantial, unimportant dimension. ross has been extremely annoyed and worried about the amount of firm intelligence gathered by drones like that by this after lesson. ready so forth, which is being used by ukraine to attack russia in crimea,

including and premier, and that's going to follow discussions in russian channels. and so for that, you know, every time there is a attack on the russian basis in crimea. the height and activity of civilians drawn by nato into the america britain and a novice flying around if i targets and they're looking for what the, the impacts. ready was so there is kind of quite a substantial element on top of the always general discussion of freedom negation. and it certainly is not, not a comfortable position to be that's you know, you want to keep going. ross's want to send a message, i'm not going to send a message and at some point, you know, you have to keep, it's got a thing and that's, that's, that's the of the book we seem to be on the now heading to just one point pebble. if the tables were turned and the russians, if, when they fly near the united states fly similar surveillance, drones near the united states, one expect to see a similar reaction. well,

that's impossible because russia doesn't have drones, can fly near the united states, right? so rather, but russian planes do fly, especially if they are close to alaska and down the alaskan coast towards california. but these are pilot planes. and quite often these are strategic nuclear bars that fly there sometimes with escort of fighters. they're intercepted by american fighters from alaska, and that happens. oh, so rough course, russian planes fly over the north sea regency towards britain of the but again, these are pilot that way. and so there are, there are intercepted but to the will. western fighters don't go anywhere close to have a collision. they said there was a bit of a collision of a mistake is much higher because we're talking about the nuclear power. maybe even

nuclear carrying a strategic bombers and not just the rape or drove rush drones. fly. well, business is right. okay peter, i just want to touch on the point that was raised in our discussion about this program earlier today. why are these surveillance drones used a tool when satellites can give paps just as good readings and i'll with will not be encountered by russian jets? why? why the drones particular being used? the tongues i used for a number of reasons. firstly, the cameras, the most well known is called the gorgon stair, which can be, can provide very high definition footage of, of what's happening on the ground. and they can, they can zoom in on a very particular point. they're manually controlled satellites. if a satellite is an orbit and it's moving around the ac,

you might not get the satellite exactly over the place that you want it to be looking at depending on the type of satellite. and so if you have a drawn a can, it can be used in a much more i say targeted, but very precise way to, to look at the bit of activity or bits of ground or something like that. or it may be that the satellite will be one angle looking at a particular drawing can give you a 2nd 2nd visual angle. so the combination of the 2 can give you a richer richard information. so that, that number of reasons why drones are particularly helpful in this situation. ok, alex is driving particular drones been lost at sea. we had both russia and the u. s . saying that they are now looking for it. how valuable would it be if indeed it's even found? well, it's, i think it will be going to quite a big, cool for rushing terms of getting their hands on,

on actual piece of us equipment. and i think the russians are the only ones actually able to retrieve it because american ships are not allowed to throw that doesn't that? well, the model is a doctrine, but the i just wanted to kind of mention were talking about drones and such. last, we didn't mention the balloons. and of course, if you want to look at the reaction, what the americans would feel like if the russian just like, you know, to come miles off new york. well, you know, look at the old, the, i know panic around the chinese balloon, which really, you know, just a so yeah, it's all very kind of touch. i mean it's, there's a lot of symbolism and all those things including into. ready retrieval i looting into a you know, areas of exclusion and so forth, which are this i tried to claim themselves. so, but yeah, i mean, this is for russia, it's so, so happened. it's a, it's a, it's a big because they can get their hands on the actual hardware from,

from the bottom of the see which face claim. now they have like a way sold felt for law down then it will be an extra extra bonus on leo everything else have all the equipment spokesman has said that this has cause relations between the us and russia to hit quote, the lowest point. i have quite a statement estimate in the history of, of roller coasters. i say emotions between the 2 sides. do you agree with it? will be your ration are very bad and that's not news. i mean, that was said there are many times by the media, tesco of the to jen said press spokesman. then press secretary did get the chief of his administration. so this is most of the things don't get that much worse, but they of course didn't get better. there's the macro mon answer exchanges. the good news is that there were just, there were talks

a telephone call and we defense ministers. and between been chief of general staff for renae garrison often be american chairman of joined chief. so that's the good news that there was high level contact to try to deescalate and not to kind of have such incidents in the future. and if we have to see with how effective that de escalation is going to be, so not that not, oh, bad happened. some good happened to gather the force that drunk rush. you a try, but not my sure. i think it will get some of the it's a disintegrated when hitting b. c. service. some of floating pieces of the plastic out recur cover of the drone may be floating around, something can be found, but finding it from about 2 kilometers the and that's the past we were went down more than 100 q armentaros off crimea. well,

that would need equipment that russia has, but it doesn't maybe have it in the black sea and brittany and then see from the bar and see, well, that's right now with again, with the clothes. the boss for us is a bit of a problem. me to have provoked it. do you think this incident has been made? it does seem that neither side is particularly interesting, an incident, escalating it at this stage, but now that the u. s. has released this video, do you think that changes the tone somewhat? i think it's role. i think that we part of deescalate thing because it's quite hard for the russian ministry to continue to state the position that is demonstrably wrong. you know the facts from iraq, but also i think, the, the heat and pressure of the war this on going at the moment between russia and ukraine adds to the tension. but i think it's not anywhere near the lowest point in the russia or the, or the former soviet union as it was,

had reached with the united states. and the memories are very short. but even looking back a few decades to get this done in the 1980s when, when they had been at that time were being supplied by vast numbers of american show that held aircraft massage. and they were shooting down hundreds and hundreds of, of soviet union aircraft and helicopters. so they have been intention is much more, much greater than we're seeing at the moment. it's just that the immediate problem is usually the one which people concentrate on. but actually if you go back a bit further in history and not before you even get to the nuclear tension over here, but so there are lots of examples in a pass off, i think much, much big attentions. and i think bigger risks and know, but this is, this is an a, in an age of 24 at our school, the news and much more much more footage is available. so i think

the context now is not as serious as presented. and i think it will, it will slowly quite and down over the next few days, i think both sides want to do that. and then they'll probably wrap up some activity where indeed alex the last word to you would you, would you probably agree with that? do you think we're going to see more incidents like this that i get the flare up these tensions once again? i will. first of all, i think this is quite dangerous and i think it's more dangerous. and then i get this done because the americans are providing way more advanced, heavier weapons. there is a faster than they have done before, anywhere else against directly against dawson's in the past. the was for the sending of february of concluding thanks. you know, that's going to was an imaginable in the system. and also of course, you house ability of skills, but this to be use against will processes its own territory, particular crimea, but not only so i think there is up to destination is quite

a much more serious than it's been in the house from caribbean crisis. but yeah, no, i think, i think it's, it's really is both sides are sticking claims. if not, none of the signals from sites are being kind of heated and they can reestablish unless we're trying to do now is based research this new. ready over game because the games is new one. if they both sides ignore them, then i think we could can see for the potential. but because from the secretary of defense to municipal defense and from joint chief joins of to the on the to garage to move. he's going to part the most go suggest that both sides actually a skill americans actually want to play down and not so collated further. ok. it's been a fascinating discussion. thank you very much. all of you for joining us today. probably going to peter lee and alexander pete of i'm thank you to for watching. you can see the program again anytime by visiting

a website that's al jazeera dot com. and so it's got to go to facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle. it's a inside story from me laura kyle and the whole team here. it's bye for now. the me ah. in a concert hall in baghdad, away from the conflict and tales from the war, sectarian bond of sanction,

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