sadie reb years well, it's a slighted preference in dolton city and turkey. good news here. the somalia and ethiopia, i briggs arranged, seemed quite like them in heavy, recently uganda and kenya. so the some flooding from that, and in malawi, there was still rain of the flooded area, but it's no longer freddy. when clouds meet, mountain west struggle gives birth to true passion. where faith is more than just when humanity defies. expectations with freedom is always wet, fighting both and untold stories from across asia and the pacific. one. 0, one east. on al jazeera, the international criminal court issues an arrest. one for russia,

president of allocations of war crime kremlin says it's not boys, won't, might it all mean for russia, for the war in ukraine? this is inside the door. a hello and welcome to the show. i'm sammy se than president vladimir putin has been indicted by the international criminal court. arrest warrants have been issued for him and russia's children's commissioner marielle, a volvo belle over mother, accused of the war crime of illegally deporting children from ukraine to russia. ukraine says 16000 children have been removed from the country. moscow says it's brought children to safety in russia, from more ravaged areas or places under attack from ukrainian forces. russia

doesn't recognize the cause, the kremlin says the warrants have no force. moose, somebody are new to the i, c. c, 's, pop it in the hands of the collective west, which is always willing to carry out pseudo jurisdiction based on their orders of the i. c. c was set up 21 years ago and is based in the hague. the court has tried and convicted people of war crimes, notably in africa. the former yugoslavia. it's jurisdiction is recognized by a 123 countries, but not by russia, china, the us and israel, among others. a short time ago i spoke to the i, c. c. the president asked him if he thought the warrant might ever be executed. so the issue that may know the international criminal court has not had their own enforcement mechanism. and in respect to the enforcement of the decision and judgements of the car needs to rely on the corporation of states.

so it's obviously disabled. there are arrest warrants, or, or so after the arrest forms to be issued a form haitian to all this $123.00 states parties and the states have the legal obligation to cooperate fully with the court according to their own standards, which may never happen according to unless they say was a good chance that these restaurants will never be executed. what impacts will it have if it is never executive? what would be the point in your opinion? do you think? i think it, it is a point already is now, issuing at the restaurant is the clear signal for the world that the action has consequences that there is a legal making of accountability and through the international criminal court

as an independent her and impartial institution is doing it's in its job. i obviously and it because of the state parties vacation to an execute. doris once does she see ned, den da da da warrant? is it kind of sanction? because the person under arrest warrant cannot seem to travel to all these countries and the 2 thirds of the countess of the world. do you expect more arrest warrants more indictments, indictments to be issued against russian officials as investigations and allegations continue into a number of other incidents? in my opinion, it is just a beginning of the of the, of the case. but everything is in the hands of the office of the prosecutor. why

and the sample, in your opinion, do you think we'll see more indictments of the russian president as well? it is also possible that they all should, that, that the case who the cases we already have these 2 cases will expand legally. the prosecutor is in the position to expand also for other allegations. m a and as i said is not the end of the game. it's just the beginning. how to respond to allocations, that the decision by the i c, c is politicized the decision specifically to go off to vladimir putin. now it will be probably difficult to convince you that it is not. obviously, as i said, we are an independent, judicial is diffusion. and if the prosecutor present the evidence presented material supporting his request to arrest a certain persons than judges,

simple and personally consider whether there is a ground to believe that these person are perpetrators of the christ under the statutes. and i don't see here that the space for the, for the police is ation. it is simply the judicial decision. or this is the point by critics of the decision. they say human rights groups, while they've documented violations by the ukrainian side, even the members of the un, independent, international commission of inquiry on ukraine have said as much on the 23rd of september, 2022. why haven't we seen the question? is indictments and arrest warrants for the ukrainian side it, you know, it, we are working on the base of the principle of complementarity means that the priority is obviously the national jurisdiction. the international criminal court steps in only after national investigation. prosecutor, prosecution is not

a possible death in the case is actually ukrainian one this there, cooperation between the i c. c and the office of the prosecutor with cranial territories and day together make the decision. what can and should be prosecuted by the national authorities before the international course and to what must be charged before the international criminal court. ah. all right, let's bring in our guest now we have joining us from moscow. so gay markov a former public spokesman for president vladimir putin from the hag, toby cabman, international human rights lawyer and international criminal court specialist. and from london dentist clever shiv, deputy regional director of amnesty international, eastern europe and central asia regional office could have you with us if i could start with toby. let's start with some basic facts of what we know who was taken

deported from ukraine. how many, there's been a lot of different numbers and, and claims circulating. thank you so that, so as, as we know, the existence of the arrest warrant has been made public. but the underlying details as to the numbers as to the, the identity of the children. i have not made public and is unlikely to be made public to some time. obviously there have been very different accounts of tens, hundreds, thousands of the we don't know what is the, the evidence that the prosecutor has lived on. but certainly the, the pre trial chamber, the authorized the issue and says the rest learnt and the publication of existence of the restaurant are satisfied. that there is

a strong evidential basis for though, for that learn. so we have to assume, based on the principle that the i, c, c works on those most serious cases and test a gravity. the numbers are a high again, we can't speculate. but we will know in the 1st time, and if and when we put in his arrested and faces wrong. all right, let me take that point to survey in moscow. so we should assume toby said there, that the strong evidentiary basis for this suggestion, the allegation that russia engaged in what is not allowed according to international law. why would washer engage in such an activity to remove, to me children illegally in violation of the laws of war? no, elation the lawyer all the a. so good, the base it just for the 50 cation i can use,

which is created by tools. and by goodness, they should be under the law law, say some dependency. and now i'm of the control or is always go and eat. there was some contrast with hybrid war i guess, an option you get in a cool up. what cleary, british, if you spend in russia, you not so much in good about what you said you see on the and national criminal court about more eating. there were quite close speaking because i russia, as you may know, a lot of people that live from those on the beaches. and as a shelley, what was that? you could be an army reaching the controls that you put in place. if it is you, and i'm more you would,

a few 100 adult children in john boss can be killed by. you couldn't tell it. that's why i moved and said z z children when they move a to secure zone and with the 0 to us best shall choose. but i'm certain daughters we submitted with their health conditions and they're better outside to do that. and why, amongst bid on this will ask us localized visuals to send children. and i was also notorious to that saves all toby was, was shaking his head. i take it, not in a lot of agreement. i'll give you a chance to come back in toby for a quick comment on that before we go to dennis. well, of course it's, it's, it's the kind of rhetoric,

it's the same narrative as the same response to that. we've had many times. it becomes very personalized, just based on insults. it's not, it's not a mature engagement where the process of course, but if i could jump in, if, if a power says we want to move kids away from hom, from what, what, according to the russian narrative is ukrainian shelling that is in day during children in the east to the country. that isn't a serious and mature allegation. all point the response i'm talking about the response referred to as clowns. illegitimate assess the needs to be proper engagement. of course. the, the defense that could, you know, any other russia defendant i will put on will, will be that of course they were leaving the children to protect them from shelling, protect them from beta homes. that's a defense that they,

they will put forward. the prosecution, satisfied that they have enough evidence to show that that is not right. that is not what happened. right, right. all right, let i want to bring denison you, of course, from the perspective amnesty international on the ground, what do we know, what the human rights groups know about those who are moved to russia given what so gay said about some of them. what happy to be removed, they wanted to get out of the line of fire, how, you know, how does what you documents back up with that? how much of them, or how many of them, what ethnic russians, although ukraine is ethnic russians who may genuinely not wanted their kids to continue to live in the dangers or short? well, let me 1st go to your 1st question is quite a lot of detail may not much but enough detail known in answer to what are we dealing with? if you look at the statement which are international concord prosecutor, mister can release the yesterday. he speaks that he's seen was reliant or

deputation of her, at least hundreds of russian children, or sorry, ukrainian children to russia, any speaking specifically of children who were in orphanages and children's institutions in ukraine. so when dealing with the fact that there is a considerable number of children who are in these institutions in ukraine before an occupation, some territories were liberated, this is the institutions that he's, that missed the casting was able to visit those children. and there, that's a fact there were removed was significant here, the waiting not from causeway. they were removed herman, gently and some of russia's policies, including things that mr. put in a sinus president point to a policy of their permanent renewable, including a meeting facilitating the process of quick transfer of the children to russian citizenship and then enabling their adoption,

quick adoption by russian families. now on the fax, again, this, i'd like to stress 2 things that we know precious little detail on on the lot of these children is missing. figures may be disputed, but the actual fact of forcible removal of ukrainian children by russian forces into russia is an established fact. and based on this, someone has to track face a justice and now we know which who it will be for over yas, what does it and, and we are trying to follow what's happening on the ground. we're documenting quite a lot of such instances. amnesty international publish the report where it is doc, documented forcible removal, deportation, and for subordinate transfer of lots of ukrainian civilians into russia were deep into territories occupied controlled by russia route when dealing was news and a massive scale with talking of war crime and possibly of crime against humanity

and can i also respond to one point made by mr. marker brief only russian user response and russian authorities response points to willing to read trust fair of lots of ukrainian civilians interaction thus true. but we cannot complete to fax this one thing when their families who move to rush and do so out of their own will . there's another when they do so against their will or don't have the choice to go into ukraine. and so it's on the company children and is the other company, children from institutions which were there and are now or, and then which was about point let, let i'm to give. so get a chance to come back in on that particularly then. so gay, the, the aggregation amounts to the removal of unaccompanied children, particularly some of them may have been from orphanages where there is no parental consent and they remove the allegation, goes to be settled, not temporarily, but permanently, perhaps naturalized settled into russian families that exceeds the sort of standard

procedure of simply moving civilians out of harm's way. right. so again, kill so for if you really create that more physical between nations into koreans that i know that difference if not the range in that bridge. it's something like between beakers and quarters might be in there, but obviously ukrainians might have a different. yeah. it's not it's, it's not it but i picked up all historical dude in 1000. yeah. you great. bob of the d connection people that why, by the way, people as always is goals and plays

a gradient. but same times they are russians. that's right. and it's people who are liberals or regions are beach and jordan. now they can actually check, since they have a reference i put in any i believe and even this people have no water will be mon g, new buttons to those people. same time russian government, if you know, respect for me to, was really marked. it's one those. the reason all greeted him some of the risk countries. again, you made an executive protection of ours and gone with harmony radios and some kind of positions that i, you all a, j, o l u b and the russian government, the respect permit it was very my, that's why you a, during that, that was family children's not last there and appealed to

be on the control bye, k, p, z. me the rock game says when russian government new zeus children, those that did it, we just controlled by keeping him are because if there is there you stop by the normal. that's the normal people, right. and bob will come back with a couple of those in a minute. let me bring in toby and ask this question at the end of day. will this warrant, practically speaking, ever be executed? it's entirely possible that it could be executed. obviously, whether russia acknowledges the existence of the jurisdiction of the i. c. c is completely irrelevant. it still does have jurisdiction of crimes that have have occurred in, in ukraine. no,

it russia is on like hand over it's friday. it's a nuclear arm country, isn't the former yugoslavia, right. you know, so and so, so it's unlikely that that will voluntarily surrender to the i see, see despite what the state is coming out. but that obviously has a very strong defense to this as, as that the mr. mark off is already stated. but the fact the matter is if he travels outside of his borders, if he travels to a state that is also a member of the i, c, c, there is a risk that he could be handed over. and the next trip that he has planned is in august to go to south africa for the brit summit. it may well be, and south africa has recently withdrawn its own withdrawal from the icbc. so the, the situation that happened with south africa previously with alba, sheer from sudan and saying to hand him over to the i, c, c. i don't think that they would make the same mistake twice. so whilst it may be

considered theoretical, there is a risk of vladimir putin being arrested in another state and handed over to the i c c, where head of state unity does not exist. so, so yes, there is, there is a great possibility. it may take time, it's not gonna happen immediately, but it will certainly impact on his ability to, to, to remain had a state. all right, let me put a question back to dennis. now. human rights groups including amnesty international, including the un, independent, international commission of inquiry for you. rain have documented what they call human rights violations by ukrainian forces. the, the question that we often hear from the russian perspective in narrative or supporters of it is, why are we seeing any indictments? why are we seeing any arrest warrants for the other side?

well, thing the quick answer to that. so history doesn't live here. in fact, history being made by yesterday decision. so we may way, well see, indictments are facing the other side. but for now giving what's happening on the ground and the evidence we receiving. this is perhaps one of the biggest most evidence losa pulling abuses which amounts to walk around and we salute the ice is decision to proceed with this warrant. by the way in statement which in the press release, which are these national can quote release. and then the statement by mr. can point stress and will stress it to this is not the only war crime for which indictments needs to follow with every the least of war, crimes and other crimes on the international law which are being documented that we should be tragically committed by rational forces. new brain is growing and for all of those time will come for someone to be indicted. but in answer to your question and the other side commits war crimes. similarly,

same process should apply and to answer the question on the what follows? so i think there's one key point here, boy releasing the informational nearest word of now there is he sending a signal. actions of this nature will have consequences or the in unlawful, transparent un, involuntary transfer, deportation, known ukrainian civilians continues. that message should put, or at least serve as a break for those who doing it, because the back was installed, was mr. brewton, others will have to face. and perhaps that these criminal orders will be less well executed or stop. now that, that should be the 1st point and then getting him to face the course and miss will, glenn is, do you really think that will, that will happen? and that principle of justice of accountability will be applied to all of those accused of war crimes. irrespective of how powerful they are in the world and any

politics. well, certainly the principle in which we as human rights movement in status, we will work towards it. okay, let me bring in survey once again and shift the question to a point which you touched on earlier, sir. what impact is this going to have on the war on diplomacy? will it make negotiations harder right now? no, and you can just see, you know, you like in the union, it will be not when you go station, but on the war and walk and blocks and until last night you will die or when does tend to signal 10 time, it will have a real influence on diplomacy crash. it will be some traditional gaming with core strength speaking. they've got like, there's a cologne style to pick up. i do to his boss about the big decision or

a go ahead dennis. about very briefly dennis, keep it very briefly. well, i mean, there's a lot to respond to the disrespect formation of comments from mr. mark encouraging, but like to say, there's none. the less russia claims of the 150 children died and in 10 years, contrary to their own traction control team, 2015. now leaving a part, the reason why they died and why the contract started in the russian role in it. 100 more children died as a result of brushes, war, of aggression against ukraine, right? if it started to st. children, well, it cost a $100.00 and how you've made. you've made that point when it gets toby a quick final on the final point. briefly what happens in the process? what's the possibility that arrest warrant can be rescinded? if there is some kind of political resolution they can, and i appreciate that's the question that you asked,

but there's so much to answer to what mr. mark up is just said, i'm sorry if i don't, they would of course to this one could be, could be withdrawn. it's unlikely. but if we just break apart what mr. mark i was just said that was carried on until every ukraine will die. well, that's reminiscent of a genocidal language and i think he needs to be very, very careful what, what kind of remarks he makes particular public broadcast. again, it was russia, the invaded ukraine to say that russia is abiding by all the sexual treaties and you craters, nor is it just goes against everything that we know. this is a process that will continue whether we say blurry or put in in the have not anytime soon. i can't say. but this process will continue the has to be a process of justice and accountability. and those who have committed such crimes must and will be, be held accountable for their actions. this is,

it's an aggression against ukraine and it's quite right that the wrestler has been issued. and i applaud the prosecutor doing my bravery to do. let's leave it. that is, that is, i know there's a lot more that we can go on discussing, but let us thank very much our guests, toby survey and dennis and thank you to for watching. you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com, and for further discussion head over to our facebook page at facebook dot com. forward slash a de inside story. also joined the conversation on twitter handle various at a day in type story from me, sammy say that the whole team. so now, by the me, ah,

i was breaking down the headlines, exposing the pile is attempting to silence, reporting what to do, what to, to investigate. why didn't you say there are many during that that sensor it will have but you know, effect on subsequent story. the listening post doesn't cover the news. it covers the way the news is covered to suppress moderate. and in some cases, amplify the content you see on your timeline. then if he has own and they're watching the piece and you curry hundreds took to the streets of london on saturday, urging a ceasefire and negotiations with russia to end. the conflict with this demonstration is one of many happening over this weekend across europe. now, for these demonstrators,

all being ukraine is simply making things worse and prolonging the conflict with others. take a very different approach. it would help if we stop saying, we'll just give you lots of weapons and tell you when the war in the belgian capital, many of those marching in solidarity with ukraine. we're actually refugees from that country. we need a canonical support because we different not on the our land. we different all democracy world, while in berlin, a bigger pro chest, at least $10000.00 turned up to say no to be idea of germany arming ukraine. we're demonstrating for peace in that war. that is not ours. so different messages and no end in sight to the misery inflicted on the people. if you crate on counting the cost will borton's new plan to bring people back into the workforce help things, economic right? the collapse of silicon valley bank mino rethink all interest rights. plus australia wants to create a new fleet of nuclear power salary and got

a massive price counting the cost on al jazeera. this is the image of home home, the 10th. it was visitors, bustling, glamorous city, but underground a different reality appears. official figures released in november show the number of people experiencing homelessness is the highest in a decade and is a shop rise in the number if women experiencing housing insecurity. that report also said there's need for better services and more funds for hostile accommodation as the situation worse. and it's the middle of winter here in hong kong, and the temperature often drops below 10 degrees at night. people in this under pos are preparing for another nice exposed to freezing conditions. ah ah.