it's much clearer, will that west coast stretching down to the south, a few showers here and there. we are expecting that rain to continue in new delhi. however, on monday, thunderstorms, a brief pause on tuesday, but by wednesday, a chance off some light rain in the afternoon. ah. examining the impact of today's headlines. this was probably one of the deadliest disaster seen but you sort of setting the agenda for tomorrow's discussions. this is the one that's been hitting city sharing, personal stories for a global audience. can you talk a little bit about what life is like for african luminous programs and open your eyes to an alternative view of the world today? or how does zara the international criminal court issues an arrest warrant for russia president of allocations of war crime kremlin says it's not in boys. won't.

might it all mean for russia, for the war in ukraine? this is inside the ah, ah, ah, hello and welcome to the show. i'm sammy se then president vladimir putin has been indicted by the international criminal court. arrest warrants have been issued for him, and russia's children's commissioner marielle, above or below the mother accused of the war crime of illegally deporting children from ukraine to russia. ukraine says 16000 children have been removed from the country. moscow says it's brought children to safety in russia, from more ravaged areas or places under attack from ukrainian forces. russia

doesn't recognize the cause. the kremlin says the warrens have no force. moose, somebody are new to the i. c. c, 's pop it in the hands of the collective west, which is always willing to carry out pseudo jurisdiction based on their orders of the i. c. c was set up 21 years ago and is based in the hague. the court has tried and convicted people of war crimes, notably in africa. the former yugoslavia, it's jurisdiction is recognized by a 123 countries, but not by russia, china, the us and israel, among others. a short time ago i spoke to the i, c. c. the president asked him if he thought the warrant might ever be executed. so the issue that may know the international criminal court has not had their own enforcement mechanism. and in respect to the enforcement or the decision or, and judgment of the car needs to rely on the corporation of states. so it's

obviously disabled. there are arrest warrants, or, or so after the arrest will be issued. a form cation to all this 123 states parties, and the states have the legal obligation to cooperate fully with the court, according to their own standards, which may never happen according to unless they say there's a good chance that these restaurants will never be executed what impacts will it have if it is never executive? what would be the point in your opinion? do you think? i think it, it is a point already is now a issuing at the restaurant is the clear signal for the world that the action has consequences that there is a legal make kind of accountability and the international criminal court

as an independent and impartial institution is doing it's in its job. i obviously need it because the state parties obligation to an execute doris once. does she see ned den there that the warrant is kind of sanction. because the person under arrest or cannot seem to travel to all these countries and the 2 thirds of the countess of the world, do you expect more arrest warrants more indictments, indictments to be issued against russian officials as investigations and allegations continue into a number of other incidents, in my opinion, it is just a beginning of the, of the, of the case. but everything is in the hands of the office of the process with why

in the sample, in your opinion, do you think we'll see more indictments of the russian president as well? it is also possible that all should be the case who the cases we already have these 2 cases will expand legally, the prosecutor is in the position to expand for all the for other allegations m a and the, as i said, is not the end of the game, it's just a beginning. how do you respond to allocations that the decision by the i c, c, is politicized the decision specifically to go off to vladimir putin? no, it will be probably difficult to convince you that it is not. obviously, as i said, we are an independent judicial institution. and if the prosecutor present the evidence, present the material supporting his request to arrest certain persons than judges,

simple, impersonal. consider whether there is a ground to believe that this person or perpetrators or the christ under the statutes. and i don't see here that the space for the, for the police is ation. it is simply the judicial decision, or this is the point by critics of the decision. they say human rights groups, while they've documented violations by the ukrainian side, even the members of the un, independent, international commission of inquiry on ukraine have said as much on the 23rd of september, 2022. why haven't we seen the question? is indictments and arrest warrants for the ukrainian side. it, you know, we are working on the base of the principle of complementarity means that the priority is obviously the national jurisdiction, the international criminal court steps in only after national investigation. the

prosecutor, prosecution is not a possible death in the case is actually ukrainian one this bad cooperation between the i c. c and the office of the prosecutor with general territories and day together make a decision. what can and should be prosecuted by the national authorities before the international courts, and to what must be charged before the international criminal court. ah. all right, let's bring in our guest now we have joining us from moscow. so gay markov a former public spokesman for president vladimir putin from the hag, toby cabman, international human rights lawyer and international criminal court specialist. and from london dentist clever shiv, deputy regional director of amnesty international, eastern europe and central asia regional office could have you with us if i could start with toby. let's start with some basic facts of what we know who was taken

deported from ukraine. how many, vis, been a lot of different numbers and, and claims circulating. thank you. so festal as, as we know, the existence of the arrest warrant has been made public. but the underlying details as to the numbers. as to the, the identity of the children. i have not been made public and is unlikely to be made public to some time. obviously there have been very different accounts of tens, hundreds, thousands of the we don't know what is the, the evidence that the prosecute has relied on. but certainly the, the pre trial chamber, the authorized the issuance of the arrest, learned, and the publication of the existence of the restaurant and are satisfied that there

is a strong evidential basis. for though, for that, lauren, so we have to assume, based on the principle that the i, c, c works on those most serious cases and tested gravity. the numbers are a high again, we can't speculate. but we will know in the 1st time, if and when we put in this arrested and faces wrong. all right, let me take that point to survey in moscow. so we should assume toby said there that there are strong evidentiary basis for this suggestion. the allegation that russia engaged in what is not allowed according to international law. why would washer engage in such an activity to remove thickly children illegally in violation of the laws of war? no election of lawyer all the a soaker at the base is just for the stupid cation they can use,

which is created by tools. and by goodness, they should be under the law states in dependency. and now under the control or is always going to was some contrast is conducting a brief war, i guess, an option you get in a cool, a support career, a bridge and rush or not so much in good about as you said, you see on the and to the national criminal court about more, you know, there were quite close speaking because i, russia is, you mean all look of people that live from also on the beach is a shelly was apt, ukrainian army regional comes to the controls that you prepared if it is you and more, you would a few 100 adult children in john boss can be killed by, you know,

a lot of that, why are move and said z z children when they move a to secure zone and with the 0 to us, shall choose bit center doors we said that it would health conditions and they're better outside to do is that there are wines amongst not been on the school . ask us look a life usually sends children in school as also notorious to that. to their saves all toby was, was shaking his head. i take it, not in a lot of agreement. i'll give you a chance to come back in toby for a quick comment on that before we go to dennis. well i say it's it's, it's the kind of rhetoric,

it's the same narrative as the same response to that. we've had many times. it becomes very personalized, just based on insults. it's no, it's not a mature engagement where the process of course, but if i could jump in, if, if a power says we want to move kids away from hom, from what, what, according to the russian narrative is ukrainian shelling that is in day during children in the east to the country. that isn't a serious and mature allegation. all point. yeah. the response i'm talking about, but the response referred to as clowns. illegitimate process. that needs to be proper engagement. of course. the, the defense that could, you know, any other russia defendant. i will put on will will be that of course they were leaving the children to protect them from shelling, protect them from greater homes. that's a defense that they,

they will put forward. the prosecution, satisfied that they have enough evidence to show that that is not right. that is not what happened. right, right. all right, let i want to bring denison you, of course, from the perspective amnesty international on the ground, what do we know, what the human rights groups know about those who are moved to russia given what so gay said about some of them. what happy to be removed, they wanted to get out of the line of fire, how, you know, how does what you documents back up with that? how much of them, or how many of them, what ethnic russians, although ukraine is ethnic russians who may genuinely not wanted their kids to continue to live in the dangers or short? well, let me 1st go to your 1st question. this quite a lot of detail may not much but enough detail known in answer to what we dealing with. if you look at the statement which are international concord prosecutor, mister can release the yesterday. he speaks that he's seen was reliable or

deputation of her, at least hundreds of russian children or sorry, ukrainian children to russia and speaking specifically of children who were in orphanages and children's institutions in ukraine. so when dealing with the fact that there is a considerable number of children who were in these institutions in ukraine before an occupation, some territories were liberated, this is the institutions that he's, that missed the casting was able to visit those children. and there, that's a fact there were removed was significant here, the waiting not from causeway. they were removed, herman, gently and some of rushes policies, including things that mr. put in a sinus president point to a policy of their permanent renewable, including making a facilitating the process of quick transfer of the children to russian citizenship and then enabling their adoption,

quick adoption by russian families. now on the fax, again, this i'd like to trace to things that we know precious little detail on on the lot of these children is missing. figures may be disputed, but the actual fact of forcible removal of ukrainian children by russian forces into russia is an established fact. and based on this, someone as the treasurer face a justice and now we know wheat, who it will be for quote, yas, what i'm used to does and, and we are trying to follow what's happening on the ground. we're documenting quite a lot of such instances. amnesty international publish the report where it is doc, documented forcible removal, deportation, and for subordinate transfer of lots of ukrainian civilians into russia were deep into territories occupied controlled by russia. route when dealing was loose and massive scaled with talking of war crime,

and possibly of crime against humanity. and can i also respond to one point made by mr. marker brief only russian user response and russian authorities response points to willing to re transfer lots of ukrainian civilians into russia. that's true, but we cannot complete to fax this one thing when their families who move to rush and do so out of their own will. there's another when they do so against their will or don't have the choice to go into ukraine. and so it's on the company children and is the other company children from institutions which were there and are now are and then which and let, let i'm to give. so get a chance to come back in on that particularly then. so gay, the, the aggregation amounts to the removal of unaccompanied children, particularly some of them may have been from orphanages where there is no parental consent and they remove the allegation, goes to be settled, not temporarily, but permanently, perhaps naturalized settled into russian families that exceeds the sort of standard

procedure of simply moving civilians out of harm's way. right. so again, kill so for if you really create that more physical between the nations into koreans that i know that difference, if not the range in that bridge, it's something like between here and it's quitters might be in there. but obviously you kind of might have a different yeah, it's not it's, it's not it, but i picked up all historical. i'm in didn't 1000. yeah. you great part of the discussion people that why, by the way,

people as always is goals and we're playing a great. but sometimes they are russians. that's right. and it's as always, people who are, are leaping or regions or beach a joint. now they can actually check, since they hit a reference, i couldn't do any, i believe. and even this depot you have no water would be mon g, new buttons to those people. same time russian government, if you know all the respect, permit evangelists, really mark, it's one those. the reason all greeted him, some of the rest of the country. it's a, do you mean exactly what the actual biometrics i'm going with these primary values and some kind of position that i you all a j o l g b and the russian government respect permit. it was very much that why you, during that i was family, children's not law says that there has been appear to be all the get. it is

controlled by the rock game. when russian guy, no suicide shield us towards that data, which is controlled by keep it easy because if there is there, you stop by looking normal for us. that's normal people, right. and well, yeah, we'll come back in a minute. let me bring in toby and ask this question at the end of the day. will this warrant, practically speaking, ever be executed? it's entirely possible that it could be executed. obviously, whether russia acknowledges the existence of the jurisdiction of the i, c. c is, is completely irrelevant. it still does have jurisdiction of crimes that have, have occurred in ukraine. no, it,

russia is on like hand over. it's friday. it's a nuclear arm country isn't the former yugoslavia. right. you know, so and so, so it's unlikely that that will voluntarily surrender to the i c. c despite what the state is coming out. but that obviously has very strong defense to this as, as the mr. mark off as already stated. but the fact the matter is if he travels outside of his borders, if he travels to a state that is also a member of the i, c, c, there is a risk that he could be handed over and, and the next trip that he has planned is in august to go to south africa for the brit summit, it may well be, and south africa has recently withdrawn its own withdrawal from the icbc. so the, the situation happened with south africa previously with alba this year from sudan and saying to hand him over to the i, c, c. i don't think that they would make the same mistake twice. so whilst it may be

considered theoretical, there is a risk of vladimir putin being arrested in another state and handed over to the i see, see where had a state immunity does not exist. so, so yes, there is, there is a great possibility it may take time, it's not gonna happen immediately, but it will certainly impact on his ability to, to, to remain had a stake. alright, let me put a question back to dennis. now, human rights groups including amnesty international, including the un, independent, international commission of inquiry for you, crane have documented what they call human rights violations by ukrainian forces. so the question that we often hear from the russian perspective in narrative or supporters of it is, why are we seeing any indictments? why aren't we seeing any arrest warrants for the other side?

well, thing the quick answer to that. so history doesn't live here. in fact, history being made by yesterday a decision. so we may way, well see, indictments are facing the other side. but for now giving what's happening on the ground and the evidence we receiving. this is perhaps one of the biggest most evidence losa pulling abuses which amounts to walk around and we salute the ice is decision to proceed with this war. and by the way, in statement which in the press release, which are these national can cause release. and then the statement by mr. can point stress and will stress it to this is not the only war crime for which indictments needs to follow with every the least of war, crimes and other crimes on the international law which are being documented that we should be tragically committed by rational forces. new brain is growing and for all of those time will come for someone to be indicted. but in answer to your question, the other side commits war crimes. similarly,

same process should apply and to answer the question on the what follows? so i think there's one key point here, boy releasing the informational nearest word of now there is he sending a signal. actions of this nature will have consequences or the in unlawful transparent un. involuntary transportation of ukrainian civilians continues that message should put, or at least serve as a brain for those who are doing it, because the back doesn't start with mr. brewton. others will have to face and perhaps that he, these criminal orders will be less well executed or stop. now that, that should be the 1st point of getting him to face the course and miss will. glenn is. do you really think that will, that will happen? and that principle of justice of accountability will be applied to all of those accused of war crimes, irrespective of how powerful they are in the world and any politics. well,

certainly the principle in which we assume human rights movement in says that we will work towards it. okay, let me bring in survey once again and shift the question to a point which you touched on earlier, sir. what impact is this going to have on the war on diplomacy? will it make negotiations harder right now? no, and you can just see, you know, you like in the union. it will be not when you get a nation, but on the war and walk and blocks and until last night you will die when to send a signal in time, it will have a real influence on diplomacy crash. it will be some traditional criminal court speaking there is a clone style to get upset due to his boss about

a big decision or a go ahead dennis about very briefly dennis, keep it very briefly. well, i mean, there's a lot to respond to the disrespect formation comments from mr. mark encouraging, but like to say, there's none. the less russia claims of the $150.00 children died in in den, yes. contrary to around and who traction control seems to sound 15 now living apart the reason why they died and why the contract started in the russian role in it. 100 more children died as a result of brushes, war, of aggression against your brain, right? if it started to st children, well, it caused hundreds and how may you make that point when it gets toby a quick final on the final point, briefly what happens in the process? what's the possibility that arrest warrant can be rescinded? if there is some kind of political resolution they can, and i appreciate that's the question that you asked. but there's so much to answer

to what mr. markup is just said, i'm sorry if i don't, they would of course to this one could be, could be withdrawn. it's unlikely. but if we, if we just break apart what mr. mark i was just said that was carried on until every ukraine will die. well, that's reminiscent of a genocidal language and i think he needs to be very, very careful what, what kind of remarks he makes particular and a public broadcast. again, it was russia, the invaded ukraine to say that russia is abiding by all the social treaties. and you know, is, is just goes against everything that we know. this is a process that will continue whether we say blood written in the have or not anytime soon. i can't say, but this process will continue the has to be a process of justice and accountability. and those who have committed such crimes must and will be be held accountable for their actions. this is,

it's an aggression against ukraine and it's quite right that the arrest warrant has been issued. and i applaud the prosecutor doing my bravery to do. let's leave it. that is, that is, i know there's a lot more that we can go on discussing. but let us thank very much our guests, toby survey and dennis and thank you to for watching. you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion head over to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash a de inside story. also join the conversation on twitter handle. there is a entire story from me, sammy say, dinah, the whole scene here. so now the by the me ah,

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and that's where al jazeera is different. the mayor of the city announced that he was doing away with the curfew. that was supposed to get everybody off. it's international perspective with the human touch zooming way in, and then pulling back out again in a concert hole in baghdad. away from the conflict and tails. from the war, sectarian bonnets and sanction the rocky national symphony orchestra has full to perform classical and traditional arab music. in the face of all adversity, ah, how to 0 will tell it's challenging story. symphony for iraq on al jazeera, marching for peace in ukraine, hundreds took to the streets of london on saturday, urging a cease fire in negotiations with russia to end. the conflict with this demonstration is one of many happening over this weekend across europe. now, these demonstrators,

all of ukraine, is simply making things worse and prolonging the conflict with others. take a very different approach. it would help if we stop saying, we'll just give you lots of weapons and tell you when the war in the belgian capital, many of those marching in solidarity with ukraine. we're actually refugees from that country. we need a canonical support because we different lot on the, our land boy, different all democracy world. while in berlin, a bigger pro chest, at least $10000.00 turned up to say no to be idea of germany. all mean ukraine, we're demonstrating for peers in that war. that is not ours. so different messages and no end in sight to the misery inflicted on the people. if you cry. ah hello, i'm down jordan dough with a quick remind at the top stories here.