day suddenly, for france it does start to dry up nicely and to the iberian peninsula, spain and portugal rain in the north on sunday, but by monday, look at that clear skies and sunshine. ah, actually 2 actors at different stages of their lives. share the highs and lows of following dreams of fame and fortune. i'm going to commit whitaker ethical mother, endlessly seeking to filth and ambitions. with the argument while struggling with family expectations, volleyball dreams. and i was just either the international criminal court issues an arrest warrant for russia's president of allegations of war crimes. kremlin says it's null and void. what might it all mean for russia?

for the war in ukraine? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the show. i'm sammy's a than president vladimir putin has been indicted by the international criminal court. arrest. warrants have been issued for him. and russia's children's commissioner marielle of over a bell over while they are accused of the war crime of illegally deporting children from ukraine to russia. ukraine says 16000 children have been removed from the country. moscow says it's brought children to safety in russia, from more ravaged areas or places under attack from ukrainian forces. russia doesn't recognize the cause, the kremlin says the warrants have no force moose,

somebody, and you have to look at the i. c. c. is it in the hands of the collective west, which is always willing to carry out the pseudo jurisdiction based on their orders of a i. c. c was set up 21 years ago and is based in the hague. the court has tried and convicted people of war crimes, notably in africa. the former yugoslavia, its jurisdiction is recognized by a 123 countries, but not by russia, china, the us and israel, among others. a short time ago i spoke to the i, c. c. the president asked him if he thought the warrant might ever be executed. so issue may know the international criminal court has not the own forestman mechanism. and in respect to, to the force of the decision and judgements of the car needs to rely on the cooperation of states. so is obvious. he disabled the arrest worms.

so after the arrest will be issued on cation 2, oldest $123.00 states parties. and the states have the legal obligation to cooperate fully with the court and according to their own status, which may never happen. coding trying, unless they say there's a good chance that these restaurants will never be executed. what impacts will it have if it is never executed? what would be the point in your opinion? do you think? i think it, it is a point already is now a issue that the rest once is the clear signal for the world, that action has consequences that there is a legal maintenance of accountability and the international criminal court as an independent and impartial institution is doing. it's in its job

a obviously and it, because of the state parties vacation to execute doris once a day. she see now dennis there that the warrant is kind of sanction because the person under arrest warrant can not single travel to all these countries. and the 2 thirds of the countess of the world, do you expect more arrest warrants more indictments, indictments to be issued against russian officials as investigations and allegations continue into a number of other incidents? in my opinion, it is just a beginning of the of the, of the case. but everything is in the hands of the office of the process of applying the sample. in your opinion, do you think we'll see more indictments of the russian president as well?

it is also possible that it all should that the case who the cases we already have these 2 cases will expand legally, the prosecutor is in the position to expand for all the for other allegations m a and so the, as i said is not at the end of the game, it's just a beginning how they respond to allocations, that the decision by the i c, c, is politicized the decision specifically to go after vladimir putin. no, it will be probably difficult to convince you that it is not. obviously, as i said, we are an independent judicial institution. and if the prosecutor present the evidence presented the material supporting his request to arrest certain persons than judges. simple and personally consider whether there is

a ground to believe that these person or property is all to christ. under the statute, and i don't see here that the space for the police is ation. it is simply the judicial decision, or this is the point by critics of the decision. they say human rights groups, while they've documented violations by the ukrainian side, even the members of the un, independent, international commission of inquiry on ukraine have said as much on the 23rd of september, 2022. why haven't we seen the question? is indictments and arrest warrants for the ukrainian side. it, you know, we are working on the base of the principle of complementarity means that the priority is obviously the national jurisdiction. the international criminal court steps in only if the national investigation, the prosecutor, prosecution is not possible. in

a case it's actually ukrainian one. this bad cooperation between the i c c and the office of the prosecutor, the ukranian authorities and day together make a decision. what can and should be prosecuted by the national authorities before the international courts, and to what must be charged before the international criminal court. ah. all right, let's bring in our guest now we have joining us from moscow. so gay markov a former public spokesman for president vladimir putin from the hague, toby cabman, international human rights lawyer and international criminal court specialist. and from london dentist clever shiv, deputy regional director of amnesty international, eastern europe and central asia regional office could have you with us if i could start with toby. let's start with some basic facts of what we know who was taken

deported from ukraine. how many, vis, been a lot of different numbers and, and claims circulating. thank you. so that's all as, as we know, the existence of the arrest warrant has been made public. but the underlying details as to the numbers as to the, the identity of the, of the children. i have not made public and is unlikely to be made public to some time. obviously there have been very different accounts of tens, hundreds, thousands of the we don't know what is the the evidence that the prosecutor has relied on, but certainly the, the pre trial chamber, the authorized the issuance of the arrest, learned and the publication of existence of the rest weren't satisfied that there is a strong evidential basis for though, for that learn. so we have to assume based on the principle that the i, c,

c works on those most serious cases and tested gravity. the, the numbers are a high again, we can't speculate, but we will know in the photos of time, and if and when blurry, put in his arrested and faces trial. all right, let me take that point to survey in moscow. so we should assume toby said there, that the strong evidentiary basis for this suggestion, the allegation that russia engaged in what is not allowed according to international law. why would washer engage in such an activity to remove thickly children illegally in violation of the laws of war? no elation of lawyer all the a soaker at the base is just for the stupid cation i can use, which is created by tools. and by goodness,

they should be under the law section dependency. and now under the control or is always, there was a bit some contrast misconduct, hybrid war, i guess, an option you could call us up what cleary, british euclid stand in russia. you not so much in good about you said you see on the and national criminal court about more eating. there will quite close speaking because i russia is you mean all, lot of people that live from also on the beach is a shelly was apt, ukrainian army reaches the controls that you put in place. if it is you, and that more up you would, a few 100 adult children in john boss can be killed by,

you could tell it that's why i moved and said 0 children when they moved to secure zone and with the 0 to us dash l 2 senators, we submit it with their health conditions and they're better outside to do that. and there are lines amongst the school. ask us, look a life usually sends children in school as also notorious to that saves all toby was, was shaking his head. i take it not in a lot of agreement, i'll give you a chance to come back in toby for a quick comment on that before we go to dennis. well i say it's, it's, it's the kind of rhetoric it's that is the same narrative as the same response to that. we've had many times. it becomes very personalized,

just based on insults. it's not, it's not a mature engagement where the process of course, and i, if i could jump in, if, if a power says we want to move kids away from hom, from what, what, according to the russian narrative is ukrainian shelling that is endangering children in the east of the country, that isn't a serious and mature allegation. all point the response, i'm talking about the response referred to as clowns, illegitimate process. that needs to be proper engagement. of course. the, the defense that could, you know, any other russia defendant i will put on will, will be that of course they were leaving the children to protect them from shelling, protect them from greater homes that to defense, that they, they will put forward. the prosecution, satisfied that they have enough evidence to show that that is not right. that is

not what happened. right, right. all right, let, i want to bring denison you of course. so the thing is from the perspective amnesty international on the ground, what do we know, what the human rights groups know about those who are moved to russia given what survey said about some of them, what happy to be removed, they wanted to get out of the line of fire, how you know, how does or what you documents back up with that. how much of them, or how many of them were ethnic russians, although ukrainians or ethnic russians who may generally not wanted their kids to continue to live in the dangers or short? well, let me 1st go to your 1st question. this quite a lot of detail may not much but enough detail known in answer to what we dealing with. if you look at the statement which are international concord prosecutor, mr. can each early yesterday, he speaks that he's seen was reliable or deputation of her,

at least hundreds of russian children or sorry, ukrainian children to russia and speaking specifically of children who were in orphanages and children's institutions in ukraine. so when dealing with the fact that there is a considerable number of children who are in these institutions in ukraine before an occupation, some territories were liberated, this is the institutions that his and mr. casting was able to visit those children and on their that's a fact they were removed was significant here, the waiting not from harm's way. they were removed, herman, gently, and some of russia's policies, including things that mister put in a side as president point to a policy of their permanence renewable, including a meeting facilitating the process of quick transfer of the children to russian citizenship and then enabling their adoption. quick adoption by russian families now on the fax. again, this i'd like to trace to things that we know precious little detail on on the lot

of these children is missing. figures may be disputed, but the actual fact of forcible removal of ukrainian children by russian forces into russia is an established fact. and based on this semester trophies a just is and now we know wheat who it will be for a quote, yas, what i'm used to does and, and we are trying to follow what's happening on the ground. we're documenting quite a lot of such instances. amnesty international published a report where it is doc, documented forcible removal, deportation, and for support of the transfer of lots of ukrainian civilians into russia were deep into territories occupied controlled by russia. route when dealing was loose and massive scaled with talking of war crime, and possibly of crime against humanity. and can i also respond to one point made by

mr. marker brief only rashly she's response and russian authorities response points to willing to read transfer lots of ukrainian civilians into russia. that's true, but we cannot complete to fax this one thing when their families who move to rush and do so out of their own will. there's another when they do so against their will or don't have the choice to go into ukraine. and so is unaccompanied children and is the unaccompanied children from institutions which were there and all of them are and that which i didn't point let, let i'm to give. so get a chance to come back in on that particularly then. so gay, the, the aggregation amounts to the removal of unaccompanied children, particularly some of them may have been from orphanages where there is no parental consent and they remove the allegation, goes to be settled, not temporarily, but permanently paps naturalized settled into russian families that exceeds the sort of standard procedure of simply moving civilians out of harm's way. right. so

again, kill so for if you really create that more no physical between the nations into koreans that i know that difference. it's not the range and that the bridge, it's something like between here and the scorchers might be in there, but obviously ukrainians might have a different. yeah. it's not it's not it but i picked up all historical dude in 1000. yeah. yeah, great part of the deep connection people that why, by the way, people as old as goals and plans for the same times they russians. that's right.

and those people who are leaping all regions are beach and joy and now they see crap. so they hit a reference, i couldn't do any, i believe. and even this depot, you know, water will be mark g new buttons to those people. but same time, russian government, if you know, all right, i mean, it was really marked. it's one of those. the reason all greeted him, some of the rest of the country is again, what do you mean exactly? well, protection of bi roberson, going with the department of radios and sometimes positions that ideology of old l g, b and the russian government, the respect permanent. well, it's very much that's why you a, during that war, family, children's not law says that there appear to be on the kid is controlled by the rock games when russian government,

new zeus, children, us, those that did it, which is controlled by keep it. because if they're in there, it's absolutely normal for us. that's what normal people. right. well, yeah, we'll come back with a couple of those in a minute. let me bring in toby and ask this question at the end of day. will this warrant, practically speaking, ever be executed? it's entirely possible that it could be executed. obviously, whether russia acknowledges the existence of the jurisdiction of the i. c. c, is completely irrelevant. it still does have jurisdiction over crimes that have have occurred in ukraine. no, russia is on like the hand over its fraser and nuclear arm country is in the former

yugoslavia. right. you know, certainly, and so it's unlikely that that britain will voluntarily surrender to the i c. c. despite what the state is coming out. but that obviously has a very strong defense to this, as, as mr. mark off has already stated. but the fact the matter is if he travels outside of his borders, if he travels to a state that is also a member of the i, c, c, there is a risk that he could be handed over and, and the next trip that he has planned is in august to go to south africa for the brit summit. now, it may well be, and south africa has recently withdrawn its own withdrawal from the icbc. so the, the situation that happened with south africa previously with alba this year from sudan and saying to hand him over to the i, c, c. i don't think that they would make the same mistake twice. so whilst it may be

considered theoretical, there is a risk of vladimir putin being arrested in another state and handed over to the icpc, where had a state of unity does not exist. so, so yes, there is, there is a great possibility. it may take time, it's not gonna happen immediately, but it will certainly impact on his ability to, to, to remain had a state. all right, let me put a question back to dennis. now. human rights groups including amnesty international, including the un, independent, international commission of inquiry for you, crane have documented what they call human rights violations by ukrainian forces. so the question that we often hear from the russian perspective in narrative or supporters of it is, why are we seeing any indictments? why aren't we seeing any arrest warrants for the other side? well, thing the quick answer to that. so she still doesn't live here, in fact,

history being made by yesterday decision. so we may way, well see, indictments are facing the other side. but for now giving what's happening on the ground and the evidence we receiving. this is perhaps one of the biggest most evidence losa pulling abuses which allows to walk around and we salute the ice. this is decision to proceed with this more. and by the way, in statement which in the press release, which are these national can cause release. and then the statement by mister can point to stress and will stress it to this is not the only war crime for which indictments needs to follow with every the least of war crimes and other crimes on the international law which are being documented that we should being tragically, committed by rational forces, new brain is growing and for all of those time will come for someone to be indicted . but in answer to your question, the other side commits war crimes. similarly, same process should apply. and to answer the question on the what follows?

so i think this one key point here, boy releasing the information on there as we're now there. is he sending a signal actions of this nature we'll have consequences or the in a lawful transparent un. involuntary transportation on ukrainian civilians continues that message should put, or at least serve as a break for those who are doing it, because the back doesn't start with mr. brewton, others will have to face, and perhaps that these criminal orders will be less well executed or stop. now that, that should be the 1st point of getting him to face the course and miss your blend is, do you really think that will, that will happen? and that principle of justice of accountability will be applied to all of those accused of war crimes, irrespective of how powerful they are in the world and any politics. well, that's certainly the principle in which we assume human rights movement in states.

we will work towards it. okay, let me bring in survey once again and shift the question to a point which you touched on earlier, sir. what impact is this going to have on the war on diplomacy? will it make negotiations harder right now? no one could. you just see from us in the unions it will be not when you go station, but on the walk and walk and blocks. and until last night you will die. or when does tend to signal the same time, it will have a real influence on diplomacy. fresh will be some traditional gaming with core strength speaking colleagues. lines is a column style to pick up. i do to you know, this book about big just isn't all

a go ahead dennis. about very briefly dennis, keep it very briefly while i mean there's a lot of fun to the disrespect formation of comments from mr. mark encouraging, but like to say there's none. the less russia claims of the $150.00 children died in, in 10 years. contrary to around, in traffic control since 2015. now leaving a part, the reason why they died and why the contract started in russia, they're all in it. hundreds more children died as a result of brushes, war, of aggression against ukraine, right? if it started to st children, well, it caused hundreds of years. maybe you've made that point when it gets toby a quick final on the final point. briefly what happens in the process? what's the possibility that the rest warren can be rescinded? if there is some kind of political resolution and i appreciate that's the question that you asked, but there's so much to answer to what mr. mark up is just said, i'm sorry if i don't do it. of course,

the rest of it could be could be withdrawn it unlikely. but if we just break apart what mr. mark was just said, that was carried on until every ukraine will die. well, that's reminiscent of a genocidal language and i think he need to be very, very careful what, what kind of remarks he makes, particularly the public broadcast. again, it was russia the invaded ukraine to say that russia is abiding by all intellectual treaties. and you know, is, is just goes against everything that we know. this is a process that will continue whether we say blood we put in the have or not anytime soon. i can't say. but this process will continue the has to be a process of justice and accountability. those who have committed such crimes must and will be, be held accountable for their actions. this is, is an aggression against ukraine and is quite right that the arrest warrant has

been issued. and i applaud the prosecutor for doing my bravery to do. let's leave it. that is that, as i know, there's a lot more that we can go on discussing. but let us thank very much our guests, toby survey and dennis and thank you to for watching. you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion head over to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash a de inside story. also join the conversation on twitter handle. there is a entire story from the san jose dan and the whole team here. now, by the me ah,

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