sitting here before that, but that's come down. i think increasingly they'll stay on the low side. bisley $22.00 is low. karachi is a bar where it should be. but karen, she could be catching big showers. ballots. are we get to mid week? ah, here's 4 miles on the go and me tonight. i'll just there is only mobile app is. this is where we dissect online with from algae. there is a mobile app available in your favorite app store. just sat for it and tapped, made a new app from al jazeera new at you think it, it the international criminal court issues an arrest warrant for russia. president of allocations of war crime kremlin says it's not

void. what might it mean for russia? and for the war in ukraine, this is inside the ah hello, welcome to the show, i'm sammy say. then president vladimir putin has been indicted by the international criminal court. arrest warrants have been issued for him and russia's children's commissioner marielle above or below va mother accused of the war crime of illegally deporting children from ukraine to russia. ukraine says 16000 children have been removed from the country. moscow says it's brought children to safety in russia, from more ravaged areas or places under attack from ukrainian forces. russia doesn't recognize the cause, the kremlin says the warrants have no force. moose,

somebody are new to the i, c. c. is it in the hands of the collective west, which is always willing to carry out pseudo jurisdiction based on their orders of a i. c. c was set up 21 years ago and is based in the hague. the court has tried and convicted people of war crimes, notably in africa. the former yugoslavia. it's jurisdiction is recognized by a 123 countries, but not by russia, china, the us and israel, among others. a short time ago i spoke to the i, c. c. the president asked him if he thought the warrants might ever be executed. so the issue that may know the international criminal court has not had their own enforcement mechanism. and in respect to the enforcement of the decision and judgements of the car needs to rely on the corporation of states.

so it's obviously disabled. there are arrest warrants, or, or so after the arrest forms of the issues that are on vacation to all the c. 123 states parties and the states have the legal obligation to cooperate fully with the court according to their own standards, which may never happen according to unless they say there's a good chance that these restaurants will never be executed. what impacts will it have if it is never executed? what would be the point in your opinion? do you think? i think it, it is a point already is now, issuing at the restaurant is the clear signal for the world that the action has consequences that there is a legal making of accountability and through the international criminal court as an independent her and impartial institution is doing it's in its job,

i obviously and it because of the state parties vacation to an execute. doris once does she see now dennis, where the warrant is kind of sanction because the person under arrest or cannot seem to travel to all these countries and the 2 thirds of the countess of the world . do you expect more arrest warrants more indictments, indictments to be issued against russian officials as investigations and allegations continue into a number of other incidents? in my opinion, it is just a beginning of the of the, of the case. but everything is in the hands of the office of the process with wind the sand. but in your opinion, do you think we'll see more indictments of the russian president as well?

it is also possible that they all should, that, that the case who the cases we already have these 2 cases will expand legally. the prosecutor is in the position to expand all the for other allegations. m a and the, as i said, is not the end of the game. it's just a beginning how to respond to allocations. that the decision by the i c c, is politicized the decision specifically to go after vladimir putin. no, it will be probably difficult to convince you that it is not obviously, as i said, we are an independent judicial institution. and if the prosecutor present the evidence presented material supporting his request to arrest a certain persons than judges, simple and personally consider whether there is

a ground to believe that these person are perpetrators of the christ under the statutes. and i don't see here that the space for the, for the police is ation. it is simply the judicial decision. or this is the point by critics of the decision. they say human rights groups, while they've documented violations by the ukrainian side, even the members of the un, independent, international commission of inquiry on ukraine have said as much on the 23rd of september, 2022. why haven't we seen the question? is indictments and arrest warrants for the ukrainian side. it, you know, it, we are working on the base of the principle of complementarity means that the priority is obviously the national jurisdiction, the international criminal court steps in only after national investigation. the prosecutor, prosecution is not

a possible death in this case is actually ukrainian one this bad cooperation between the i c. c and the office of the prosecutor. the ukrainian allergies and day together make a decision. what can and should be prosecuted by the national authorities before the international course and to what must be charged before the international criminal court. ah. all right, let's bring in our guest now we have joining us from moscow. so gay markov a former public spokesman for president vladimir putin from the hague, toby cabman, international human rights lawyer and international criminal court specialist. and from london dentist. clever shiv, deputy regional director of amnesty international eastern europe and central asia regional office. good. have you with us if i could start with toby, let's start with some basic facts of what we know who was taken deported from

ukraine. how many, there's been a lot of different numbers and, and claims circulating. thank you. so that's all as, as we know, the existence of the arrest warrant has been made public. but the underlying details as to the numbers as to the, the identity of the children. i have not made public and is unlikely to be made public to some time. obviously there have been very different accounts of tens, hundreds, thousands of the we don't know what is the the evidence that the prosecutor has relied on, but certainly the, the pre trial chamber, the authorized the issuance of the arrest, learned and the publication of existence of the rest weren't satisfied, the barrier is a strong evidential basis for though for that warrant. so we have to assume based

on the principle that the i, c, c works on those most serious cases and tested gravity. the, the numbers are a high again, we can't speculate, but we will know in the 1st time, and if and when we put in the rest it and faces trial. all right, let me take that point to survey in moscow. so we should assume toby said there, that the strong evidentiary basis for this suggestion, the allegation that russia engaged in what is not allowed according to international law. why would washer engage in such an activity to remove thickly children illegally in violation of the laws of war? no, elation of lawyer all the a. so good, the base, it just simply cation i can use, which is created by tools. and by going as they should be,

under the law law, say some dependency. and now i'm of the control or is always go and eat. there was some contrast with the coverage war, i guess, an option you get in a cool up what cleary brings you spend in russia. you not so much and good about what you said. you see on the national criminal court about more eating, there were quite close speaking because i russia, as you may know, a lot of people that live from those on the beach is under a shelley. what was that? you create an army, which is the controls that you put in place. if it is you, and that more you would, a few 100 adult children in john boss can be killed by you. couldn't you know that?

that's why i moved and said these children, when they moved a to secure zone and with the 0 to us children. but i'm certain daughters, we submit it with their health conditions and they're better outside to do that. and why, amongst bid on this will ask us localized visuals to send children. and i was also notorious to that saves all toby was, was shaking his head. i take it, not in a lot of agreement. i'll give you a chance to come back in toby for a quick comment on that before we go to dennis. well, i say it's a, it's, it's the kind of rhetoric, it's the same. narrative is the same response that we've had. many times. it

becomes very personalized and just based on insults, it's not, it's not a mature engagement or the process of course. but if i could jump in, if, if a power says we want to move kids away from hom, from what, what according to the russian narrative is ukrainian shelling that is endangering children in the east of the country. that isn't a serious and mature allegation. all point, yeah, the response i'm talking about, but the response referred to as clowns. illegitimate assess the needs to be proper engagement. of course. the, the defense that could, you know, any other russia defendant i will put on will, will be that of course they were leaving the children to protect them from shelling, protect them from greater homes that to defense, that they, they will put forward. the prosecution,

satisfied that they have enough evidence to show that that is not right. that is not what happened. right, right. all right, let, i want to bring denison you of course. so the thing is from the perspective amnesty international on the ground, what do we know, what the human rights groups know about those who are moved to russia given what survey said about some of them, what happy to be removed, they wanted to get out of the line of fire, how you know, how does or what you documents back up with that. how much of them, or how many of them were ethnic russians, although ukrainians or ethnic russians who may generally not wanted their kids to continue to live in the dangers are short. well, let me 1st go to your 1st question is quite a lot of detail may not much but enough detail known in answer to what are we dealing with? if you look at the statement which are international concord prosecutor, mister can release the yesterday. he speaks that he's team was reliable or

deputation of her, at least hundreds of russian children or sorry, ukrainian children to russia and speaking specifically of children who were in orphanages and children's institutions in ukraine. so when dealing with the fact that there is a considerable number of children who are in these institutions in ukraine before russian occupation, some territories were liberated, this is the institutions that he's, that missed the casting was able to visit those children and not there. that's a fact they were removed was significant here waiting not from harm's way. they were removed herman, gently, and some of russia's policies, including things that mr. put in a sinus president point to a policy of their permanent renewable, including a meeting facilitating the process of weak transfer of the children to russian citizenship and then enabling their adoption, quick adoption by russian families. now on the fax, again, this,

i'd like to stress 2 things that we know precious little detail on on the lot of these children is missing. figures may be disputed, but the actual fact of forcible removal of ukrainian children by russian forces into russia is an established fact. and based on this semester trial, face a justice and now we know wheat, who it will be for over yas, what does it and, and we are trying to follow what's happening on the ground. we're documenting quite a lot of such instances. amnesty international published a report where it is doc, a documented, forcible removal, deportation, and for supporting the transfer of lots of ukrainian civilians into russia were deep into territories occupied controlled by russia. land. when dealing was news and a massive scale with talking of war crime and possibly of crime against humanity.

and can i also respond to one point made by mr. marker brief only rashly she's response and russian authorities response points to willing to read transfer lots of ukrainian civilians into russia. that's true, but we cannot complete to fax this one thing when their families who move to rush and do so out of their own will. there's another when they do so against their will or don't have the choice to go into ukraine. and 3rd is on the company, children and his the other company, children from institutions which were there and are now or, and then which and let, let i'm to give. so get a chance to come back in on that particularly then. so gay, the, the aggregation amounts to the removal of unaccompanied children, particularly some of them may have been from orphanages where there is no parental consent and they remove the allegation, goes to be settled, not temporarily, but permanently paps naturalized settled into russian families that exceeds the

sort of standard procedure of simply moving civilians out of harm's way. right. so again, kill so for if you really create that more physical between the nations into koreans that i know that difference. it's not as a bridge, it's something like between here and the scorchers might be in there, but obviously ukrainians might have a different. yeah. it's not it's, it's not it but i picked up all historical. i'm in didn't 1000. yeah. you create it. yes. bob of the be production people that why, by the way, people as souls as goals and plans for the same time,

they are russians. that's right. and those people who are legal or regions who should join now, they can actually check since they hit a reference, i couldn't do any i believe. and even this people have no water would be mon g, new buttons to those people. same time russian government, if you know, respect from it, it was really marked. it's one those that even all greeted him, some of the rest of the country, it's a didn't was exactly what the actual bad or some gone with the department of railey was. and some kind of opposition i your legit eligibility and the russian government respect permit. it was very much that's why you during that war, family children's not law says that there has been an appeal to be on the get. it

is controlled by the rob games when russian got no suicide children of those that did a story which is controlled by keeping him because if there is there, you talk to normal normal people. right. and bob, well, yeah, we'll come back a couple of those in a minute. let me bring in toby and ask this question at the end of the day. will this warrant, practically speaking, ever be executed? it's entirely possible that it could be executed. obviously, whether russia acknowledges the existence of the jurisdiction of the i. c. c is completely irrelevant. it still does have jurisdiction of crimes that have have occurred in, in ukraine. no, it russia is on like the hand over it's friday. it's a nuclear arm country,

isn't the former yugoslavia, right? you know, so and so, so it's unlikely that that will voluntarily surrender to the i c c, despite what the state is coming out, but that obviously has very strong defense to this as, as that the mr. mark off is already stated, but the fact the matter is if he travels outside of his borders, if he travels to a state that is also a member of the i, c. c, there is a risk that he could be handed over and, and the next trip that he has planned is in august to go to south africa for the brit summit. it may well be, and south africa has recently withdrawn its own withdrawal from the cc. so the, the situation that happened with south africa previously with alba, sheer from sudan and saying to hand him over to the i, c, c. i don't think that they would make the same mistake twice. so whilst it may be

considered theoretical, there is a risk of vladimir putin being arrested in another state and handed over to the i c c, where head of state unity does not exist. so, so yes, there is, there is a great possibility. it may take time, it's not gonna happen immediately, but it will certainly impact on his ability to, to, to remain had a stake. alright, let me put a question back to dennis. now. human rights groups including amnesty international, including the un, independent, international commission of inquiry for you. rain have documented what they call human rights violations by ukrainian forces. the, the question that we often hear from the russian perspective and narrative or supporters of it is, why are we seeing any indictments? why are we seeing any arrest warrants for the other side? well, thing the quick answer to that. so she still doesn't live here, in fact,

history being made by yesterday a decision. so we may way, well see indictments facing the other side, but for now giving what's happening on the ground and the evidence we receiving. this is perhaps one of the biggest most evidence losa pulling abuses which allows to walk wrong and we salute the ice. this is decision to proceed with this warrant, by the way in statement which in the, in the press release, which are these now talking closely. and then the statement by mister can point to stress and will stress it to. this is not the only war crime for which an indictment needs to follow with every the least of war crimes and other crimes on the international law which are being documented that we should be intrinsically committed by rational forces. new brain is growing. and for all of those time will come for someone to be indicted. but in answer to your question, the other side commits war crimes. similarly, same process should apply. and to answer the question on the what follows,

i think this one q point here, boy releasing the informational nearest word of now this is he sending a signal actions of this nature we'll have consequences or the in a lawful transparent un, involuntary transfer, deportation of ukrainian civilians continues, that message should put, or at least serve as a break for those who doing it because the back was installed was mr. brewton, others will have to face, and perhaps that these criminal orders will be less well executed or stop. now that, that should be the 1st point and then getting him to face the course and miss you all blend is, do you really think that will, that will happen? and that principle of justice of accountability will be applied to all of those accused of war crimes. irrespective of how powerful they are in the world and any politics. well, that's certainly the principle in which we as human rights movement in states that

we will work towards it. okay, let me bring in survey once again and shift the question to a point which you touched on earlier, sir. what impact is this going to have on the war on diplomacy? will it make negotiations harder right now? no, and you can just see, you know, you like in the union, it will be not when you go station, but on the war and walk and blocks and until last night you will die or when does tend to signal the same time it will have a real influence on diplomacy. fresh it will be some traditional gaming with core strength speaking colleagues. they've got like there's a cologne style to pick up his books about big decision or

a go ahead dennis about very briefly dennis, keep it very briefly while i mean there's a lot to respond to the disrespect formation of comments from mr. mark, encouraging, but like to say, there's none. the less russia claims of the 150 children died and in 10 years, contrary to their own traction control seems to sound 15 now, living apart the reason why they died and why the contract started in the russian role. in it, 100 more children died as a result of brushes, war, of aggression against ukraine, right? if it started to st. children, well, it cost a $100.00 and how you've made. you've made that point when it gets toby a quick final on the final point. briefly what happens in the process, what's the possibility that the rest warning can be rescinded if there is some kind of political resolution they can and i appreciate that's the question that you asked. but there's so much to answer to what mr. mark up is just said,

i'm sorry if i don't they would of course to the rest one could be could be withdrawn. it's unlikely. but if we, if we just break apart what mr. mark was just said, that was carried on until every ukraine will die. well, that's reminiscent of a genocidal language and i think he needs to be very, very careful what, what kind of remarks he makes particular public broadcast. again, it was russia, the invaded ukraine to say that russia is abiding by all the sexual treaties and you craters, nor is it just goes against everything that we know. this is a process that will continue whether we say blurry or put in in the have not anytime soon. i can't say. but this process will continue the has to be a process of justice and accountability. and those who have committed such crimes must and will be, be held accountable for their actions. this is, it's an aggression against ukraine,

and it's quite right that the risk warren has been issued. and i applaud the prosecutor for doing that. my bravery to do, let's leave it. that is, that is, i know there's a lot more that we can go on discussing, but let us thank very much our guests, toby survey and dennis and thank you to for watching. you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com, and for further discussion head over to our facebook page at facebook dot com. forward slash a de inside story. also join the conversation on twitter handle various at a day in type story from me, sammy say that the whole team. so now by the me ah

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