north will be wet in new delhi on monday and tuesday, but for the western coast and the east, more in the way of showers, but still a lot of sunshine. a heavy rain pushes its way further towards the northeast, into bangladesh and nipple. ah, iraq, a nation riddled with land mice and an expert dedicated to defusing them, one by one. equipped with only a knife and a pair of wire parties, the faces death every day. but does his work make him a hero or a target? witness? the d minor on edge is 0. 20 years since the us led invasion of iraq. how has the war reshaped the country and impacted the

region? does it still affect wider world affairs today? this is inside story. ah. hello, welcome to the show. i'm sammy's a than 20 years ago. life in iraq changed forever. us and british military force is rolled into the country, unleashing a wave of military destruction that would topple president saddam hussein. it would also kill and maim many hundreds of thousands of people will be discussing with our guests the legacy of this war in iraq, the middle east and globally, but 1st, sorry, been j reports from baghdad and how the anniversary is being seen there. this is as for those square where the famous statue of saddam hussein was brought down when us

forces took over the bill that people here in the capital will tell you that in the last 20 years, all they are seen is destruction. desperation and deep division. people in baghdad have been coming to the streets and other parts of europe as well to try and get those rise for basic services for jobs, for better health care, what an end to corruption for better education. but that has not been happening for them in the last 20 years. there is a democratic system in place. but in the last election, more than half of the rockies did not turn up to vote. they do not believe that the politicians who are in charge really truly represent them. and because of the high level of corruption, they feel that they have been left to suffer. also, the security situation in iraq, as you can see, is much better than what it was. but there is this constant read this constant fear that what is going to happen tomorrow. iraqis will tell you that when you travel from the south, from bus or all the way to the north, to mosul in their b. u,

that the government does not really care about them, that the government has failed them. we've heard from the iraqi president think that they have learned lessons from the past and they are going to try and do better in the future. the people of iraq have gone below the poverty line lydia quarter of the population live below the poverty line. now a number that has been increasing and it is in contrast to the rising foreigner, those that are off has over a $100000000000.00 that it has important the viet basic services remain to be seen . what have happened in the last 20 years is after the with invasion, the iraqi army was disbanded by the stroke of a pen. then there came deep sectarian fight with tens of thousands of iraqis were killed. and then there was a ride of isolate. iraq is only now beginning to come out of that deep sense of insecurity. but you, when you walk in the street, yes, there are people milling about. there is no sense of fear, especially in the federal capital. but you will, you will see that people are still scared. they don't know what's gonna happen

tomorrow. even today, there are people who are gearing up for protests outside the parliament. and this invasion had a wider impact, not just for the region as well. but as the cliched thing goes, that iraqis will tell you that yes, the us invasion took are one to down with and, but now there is a thief in every street. ah, well, from all this, let's bring in our guests into the show. we have joining us from baghdad, madras, the president of the house of a rocky expertise foundation and an advisor to the former speaker of the rocky parliament in paris. laura marlo irish times, paris correspondent, who reported from iraq extensively after the invasion in 2003 and in washington dc bill on what hub and iraq political analyst and wagner fellow at the washington institute. a welcome to all. if i could start with that met in baghdad, so 20 is on the basic question. did the us invasion of iraq leave the country in

a better or worse place? well certainly the answer this question related to the consequences of what's happening of 2003. and it's obvious that we lost our partnership in decision making which caused loss. busy of political pluralism ended with most. busy of social fluid arms and everyone is now thinking about to something close to the national us. and it's obvious also that we lost something very important nationality, rocky mission, and all the of those consequences. i think it's more become the responsibility of the political process, which is headed by the political blocks. and the most important thing is that political applauds need to understand how much iraq going indeed into sector amazon into more local, depending on local communities. rather, they're looking for all of all of iraq. i'm and let me jump in there though and say

this is what the, the advocates of the us invasion would point to. they would say, hey, look, the iraq has elections. the u. n. d, p human index indicator shows, life expectancy has increased since the u. s. invasion, according to other figures, g, d, p is higher electricity production is up 10 fold. all production has tripled. do those numbers tell a positive story of what life is like in iraq? while it's debatable all goes? well, what you talked about is debatable because as iraq he, i did, i don't seem to address to become well. and also there is a huge kind of a huge percentage of unemployment. we're already in the budget now announced that there is perverted t governor a need special items inside. busy the budget, so all those things that been mentioned as an let's say, as

a successful at terms of 2003 all iraq. you need to say, well, just wait for a moment. it looks like it's debatable because my life is not going better. yes, i have more money, but i, i, i have a problem with the security situation. i have a problem with the infrastructure. most importantly, i lost hope in the political process in my children and future, which is a very important issue to say that the iraq can go forward and positive way. and also there is another things that need to be managed well is that we lost our social to an autism. that means everyone is looking for his self interest for his community, local community, entrust the rather than iraq and show you how much we lost hope in this situation in the state. it is all right, let, let me take, let me take that more question. now i may be allowed in washington dc because

does it have a point when he says, you know, you got to put some of those numbers into perspective because iraq was a country that was under sanctions before the us led invasion. it's natural to expect. it's g d p to increase to expect it's all production and exporting to increase. but if you look at the bottom lines for iraqis, the ministry of planning and january, thank the lety, right, had risen to a quarter of the population for, for all rich country. good to be with you, sammy, i mean the iraq war and the, the result of the iraq war is definitely a huge elephant and we can touch different parts of it. and iraq is also a complex place, the complex country with complex society. and let's not forget that the comparison might be also hard to make between the saddam hussein regime or the bosses regime

and the posted. i'm with the regime because to me the, the most visible outcome of the war is greater transparency. we know what goes on in iraq, that is the political competition that is openness and that is basically the absence of central command allows us to know that in detail and the core thanks. thanks the social media. what goes on several iraqi quarter, which definitely was not the case and the a single band, single party control of the saddam hussein regime. so perhaps i'll jump in too and say, does that transparency sometimes shows that actually the us led invasion has led to a deterioration take what the bogan project says when it talks about why there is increasing poverty in the rock. it specifically points to as one of the main factors the us invasion in 2003,

the occupation in 2003 says has prompted effect terry and civil war displacement of people. disruption of trade damaging communication and transport infrastructure and destabilizing education. riley natural, if you go all those ingredients, the cake is going to be a bad one at the end. know that, that's definitely a fair criticism and i think that has been no one more critical of the negative side of the war than you know, american press and critics in the states itself. but you asked earlier about the legacy of the war. i think they, the major point is that this was an experiment and using military might for political objectives in the case of iraq, that was regime change. i think the change part was easy, but changing it was something better. it's still that's the challenge. i hope it will work in progress. but for the numbers that you said that the fixed, the 6 that you mentioned, i was going to put to your rocky agency. and this, i think is very easy and probably not too hard to blame. the outside forces be the

just states of the u. k. but iraq, you have a stay in running their own country. i mean, i'm on the right. you can say running our own country. the tell you a war was perhaps through the state that was great. it, but the iraqis calling each other corruption is rampant in iraq. but those are your lucky feeling that own states assets militia run amuck. but those are iraqi militias who have chosen the loyalty to a navy rather than their own country. so yet the americans made tremendous mistakes and in so did the u. k. y did also provide the b rocky to the opportunity and on some aspect those opportunities have been seen on others. they have took leave and squandered. nor i could see laura was shaking her head. then i take it probably in disagreement. the war the us led invasion gave an opportunity and to some extent, is the iraqis who are messing it up, i guess is, is the sentiment. what do you think of that, laura?

well, for me they the invasion itself, the war which lasted 3 weeks. and the decade that ensued was so horrific was such a night. now, i don't see how anyone can argue that it was a good thing to have happened. i mean, even george w bush has reportedly said it was a mistake america and it was, it was a mistake. and the cause of this war was horrific. hundreds of thousands of people killed. you said so yourself, sammy $5000.00 american soldiers, it's estimated to cost the us up to $3.00 trillion dollars, which is about, well, if you add that to the rest of the post $911.00 wars, which were a trillion altogether, you're talking about a quarter of the u. s. national debt on iraq. it is still a broken country. it's very, very corrupt. the centurion divide is horrendous. it was never like done on under

saddam and not making excuses for saddam. he was a brutal dictator. i. i agree to that, but going in and breaking the country, destroying my country was not a way to save it and it hasn't saved it. all right, let me come back. if i made to belittle and say, is there really no way around belie if one is honest to say that invading a country right without un backing is a very, to put it blood mildly, is a very crude way of managing a transition to democracy, right? of course, communities are going to be on by all kinds of actors, vacuums are created and people go with each other next. that is not the ideal sort of transition to democracy in which you can say, well, you know, we gave them the chance, but they didn't really sees it. was that much of a chance in those kinds of circumstances look better there, but i go like to my,

to my point, i think your keys have agents the way we can look at the country. of course, the 1000000 and you know, have like 4000000 battles, 5000000 barrels of oil a day with a history and culture to basically say everything and anything wrong that goes on that country is basically a medical all american made tremendous mistakes. and as i said, the americans would be the 1st to, to name those mistakes. but how did the iraqis seize this opportunity? and then the, the question of comparing it to, for them was saying, as i said, that's probably not a fair comparison because we just know too much about the post saddam than the pre saddam. but i, i said it's a, it's a big elephant. maybe for some towns that were away from so i was saying is rap the instability that in soon after was bad news. but look, i live 5 years of my childhood in the recruit g p,

g camp. and my only claim was being occurred or living and couldn't then neither, neither of them being my choice. i bring again, it's in the bring in. if i may, i had rosie from the bank. that's who the biggest winners of this conflict. many would argue. number one, iran number 2 groups like a tie the i feel which didn't have much of a strong presence before the us invasion. did it in trench. these people, these actors, well, there are so many winners for what's happening to rock the inside and outside of the political blocks. first of all, that it looks like in front of the rockies, the of the biggest winners. because we all know how much corruption made money for them. this is the 1st issue. the 2nd issue is that the, the also there are regional winners who are seeing here are the, the, the, the fatal for like in, in be in the, in the next 10 years. and for example, iraq in 2030 as minister planning saying that we're going to be 50000000 or more

than 50000000. so more than 50000000 was a huge kind of, of, of, for energy reserve. but also we have problems with water. and we are now seeing dryness is the major threat for iraqis. and it looks like that this problem has become bigger and bigger day by day time by time, and with no real solution at all we, what the political up looks is doing is blaming to academy iran. that's it. so you can imagine is that those political blows blocks inside this political process does not have a real roadmap for the future of iraq. so this is what people actually made that made themselves think to themselves, is that why we should participate in such a political approach? so you can imagine in one example which is dryness that suffered his iraq has suffered from actually made a question mark for the,

for the fate of their political process in the mind of iraqis. so who is, who are the winners? every one. busy busy oh, concerning gwinnett, except the lucky people. so that's why we are seeing the help of the international community and when another, it's one of the saving boats for iraqis, because the international communities knows exactly what the problems knows exactly who is responsible for those problems and need to managed. and those problems need to be, be managed and some nationally because they are all responsible for what's happening to all right, i'm, it sounds like what we're getting out what you're getting as a lack of international engagement and order in this. and i wonder laura was the, was a key milestone in undermining the international order. and underscoring the principle that, hey, if you're a big power, you can just go ahead invade and occupy a country without any un backing. absolutely be. and the true for that is that

song glad i'm in certain today, says over and over and over. look what the americans did in iraq. look what the americans did in kosovo. they went into both countries without a un mandate, and he says he's just doing the same thing the americans did, and in iraq and in a way he's right. so it's become, it created a very dangerous precedent regarding the water shortage in iraq, munitions, fact that russia, everyone is tired. other one is building huge downs on the tigris and euphrates, which are depriving the iraqis of the water. one of you use the word agencies that the rockers have more agency, what they don't have in the front, and but more than half of them won't even bother to vote. the political power has been captured by the sort of warlords, basically by correct political groups. many of them in

a basin to be wrong, you're wrong, definitely one. the war, i mean, iraq, in some ways is almost a colony of iran now. and it's, it's quite incredible that the united states of america, which views iran is as a, as an adversary. and basically handed iraq to iran on a platter. and i think the biggest losers are the sunni muslims because they basically ran iraq before and they have been prosecuted since the invasion. they lost the most people during the civil war of the, of the 2 towers. i found the courage or send me a ton of us in the she, i have most of the power most resources. so iraq soon is, are orphaned by this war. all right, it's interesting law mention that the issue of ukraine, and we, as we know recently the i, c. c issued an arrest warrant for russian president vladimir putin. now earlier i

spoke to the president of the i, c. c, the international criminal court. and i put the question to him of accountability for what happened in iraq, and whether we'll see powerful countries face that kind of accountability. critics also ask, will we see the day when the i, c. c can issue arrest warrants or indictments for some of the, the most powerful countries in the world. some of whom have been accused has been documented by human rights groups of, of what they call, flagrant violations of international humanitarian law. according to a statement by amnesty international march 28th, 2017. referring to the us led coalition as strikes in mosul, which they say destroyed, houses and families is the day going to come when we might see the icpc get involved with those kinds of cases. so the scope of the jurisdiction of the court is strictly provided for the statute if the court has the jurisdiction. and i means,

i mean, not only in respect to the territory, but also in respect to the persons coming to committed allegedly coming committing crimes. but also in respect of the time, you know, i cannot, i cannot speak for the prosecutor, he's the end of the independent organ of the court. and he has to make selection of situation and cases for them before, before the court. you know, the court is not able to, to deal with all across just all over the world. is one court is 18 judges and is a lot of, of our sources and on an old continence so the prosecutor must do the selection of cases and, and prosecute according to his conviction that this is the proper way

proper, proper things to do. so some difficult questions of legacy and accountability below out in washington, d. c. was the war done in terms of the image of the u. s. and the western allies off the all of that legacy will remember of course the abil her a incident, the way the prisoners were treated and shown chained and piled on top of each other . the whole black water killings, the wiki leagues videos, showing us a cruise gunning people, including journalists and laughing about it, and so on. that being a huge recoverable fat back to the idea of the west promoting democracy. human rights around the world and rule of law. oh absolutely, and i think it, it also totally undermines that might makes right, the legacy of the military solutions to political problems for sure.

and i mean, even in the us political rhetoric, you thought that basically clinton, hillary clinton were trying very hard to make sure that, you know, people forget that she was a point. the rock or, and obama became president in part because he was against the war. so that is a conventional wisdom that what happened in iraq was a mistake, that one of choice, but going back to the iraqi site. yes, they suffered the brunt of these mistakes and the miscalculation, but at the end of the day they were had the country. and going back to the question of agency, yes, that is corruption. and yes, that is militia, and these 2 are in a dirty entanglement that invites jarine and interference. it undermines xerox potential, but the rock is, are waking up because the pass is the path. and the iraqis realized that, you know, the country that made all of those mistakes being the nicest state,

cannot be also relied on exclusively and solely to fix their own problem. based on new iraq, you problems that screen for an iraqi solution. yes, the turn not in elections are low, but in 2019 young iraqis who had no memory or recollection of saddam hussein lead the streets and the cost of treasured and blood managed to force the prime minister to resign. i think that agency for you, and i was just the, at the conference in, in iraq. he couldn't stand that the american university there while having an american universities quite a change. but those young mines were basically asking, how can we iraqis chart the better future for, for themselves rather than rely on, you know, the balance of power or great power petition. what is it that you are you've been solved, can do. all right, let me bring out why that's a good point. i like that point. but what can iraqis do on they really up against

not only a disinterested international community to put it, you know, in the mildest terms, but also an entrenched little cloth that doesn't want to see change. i mean, this is a country with a petra dollar budget around $152000000000.00 and the other struggles with the provision as you pointed out of basic services like electricity and ranks that towards the bottom of transparency international corruption index. $157.00 out of $180.00 countries. well saw me after 2003, what the new political process. the consequences of this political process made a rock called the political blocks. now, all the young man and woman try to smash this wrong and they fear because know, today those political books negotiating, changing the electoral law, which that bring the independent m p. 's to the parliament and make

a new parliament. and it's 2022 elections 2022. so you can imagine how people are desperate because destruct is not smashed and more. and that's why i'm asking for the in or iraq is, are asking actually for, from so the collaboration of the international community start to help iraq to rehabilitate this political process that happened after 2000. right. that's a good point. hang on because i can, you know, i want to take the calls for more international engagement. it seems almost like the iraq rock war laura. and the invasion of iraq was a turning point for us interest engagement and influence in the middle east. right? subsequent administrations either talked about the pivot towards asia or talks about america 1st and more inward looking policy. would that be a right? correct description. yes. with that there are many pieces to destroy. i mean,

the failure of the collapse of libya, basically with the king of mark dorothy and libya still in crisis till in conflict . the civil war in syria. i mean, i think that the, the age of the, of the dictator is of, can dorothy and i saw the father and now the son and of a salon, was saying it was bad and people had no freedom and they were terrorized by their governments. but i think that the instability that we see across the region today, coupled with the most far right wing extreme right wing israeli government, ah, and the total just forgotten this of the, of the palestinians, the palestinians are just completely abandoned by the international community with no hope of their own state any more. i think the whole region is in a terrible, terrible state. and i don't think the world is watching the world is watching

ukraine and russia and china, including the americans. and i think that it's, it's tragic. i think it's criminal. i think that george w bush and dick cheney, and donald rumsfeld and the neo cons at the pentagon will of it's and company. those people should be in the hey, along with vladimir putin, they should have been indicted for war crimes. i mean, if you'd seen what i saw people, the dozens, hundreds of civilians killed by awe by, by cluster bombs and shot at checkpoints and people being tortured and under grier . and it's, it's just inexcusable. and yes, the region is, is it is in a terrible, terrible state on re remember that benjamin netanyahu, back in 1996, did a report called a clean break, where he advocated the invasion of iraq and the i did. the americans were terribly

naive about all this. they thought the middle east was made of good guys and bad guys. and if you got rid of the bad guys, everyone would live happily ever after. and that just hasn't happened, right. all right, i'm afraid we are out of time, so we're going to have to thank our guests for their great contributions to this show. we appreciate all of you at raj, the laura marlo, and believe we're happ and thank you to for watching. you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion head over to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is a j inside story. from me, sam is a ban on the whole team here for now. goodbye. ah ah.

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