i don't know, but it's right is spilling down across all the some parts of libya using over towards good parts of northern egypt as well. some wet weather coming through here, but elsewhere across north africa. it is dry but shocked showers for the gulf of guinea. ah, coveted beyond wealth taken without hesitation, fought and died for power defines how well we live here. we make the rule, not them. they find an enemy and then they try and scare that. people with people empower investigators. exposed is and questions they use them to be used of our around the globe on now to sierra china as president says, his country and russia a driving geopolitical changes globally. human being has been in moscow and a show of support for vladimir present. and what do those changes mean for the

broader wild order? and how does the west view she is visit? this is inside story. ah, how there and welcome to the program. i'm to start the tape. now present, she's being has concluded his visit to moscow. cementing his partnership with batman pearson, the chinese leaders trip came to stays after the international criminal court issued an arrest warrant for the russian president for more crimes and ukraine. the 2 heads of state issued a joint statement, confirming their alignment on a host of issues and condemning the west and later they also cautioned against any steps that could push the conflict in ukraine into an uncontrollable phase. how small bar reports. oh. 2 they say it's an alliance without limits. china and russia are expanding trade and diplomatic

corporation. the 2 countries insist their relations are far from being a military and political alliance. but she jumping and redeemer, put in, share a growing concern of what they perceived to be an american dominance across the globe for the chinese leader has secured an unprecedented 3rd term earlier this month. this trip could be the moment to establish his country as an international peacemaker. there her, we're sion, gowns under. we shall always respect and abide by the un charter. we will always promote peace and also promote negotiation and discussion. a stance is always based on fairness and justice. we will always be on the side of peace and we're always on the side of dialogue. we are always on the side of his stark venus and justice literally with, with you see, but ending war in ukraine would,

may not be an easy task. china is yet to elaborate on it's 12 point piece plan merged. tim badging has called on russia and ukraine to address their security concerns without mentioning russian troops withdrawl, it's a key demand for key. if the u. s. has dismissed the peace plan as a stalling tactic. in the mean time, western nations are stepping up military assistance to ukraine. luis didn't glow we minister for up today we learned that the minister of defense of the u. k. declared he would supply tank to the ukraine, and also you rainy him in rich weapons to ukraine. i think that the west will now fight russia to the last ukrainian chief facing growing international isolation. ladiva put in is turning to president. g. jumping and allies largely shaped following russian invasion of ukraine last year. after the e, you imposed a ban on russian energy import. china stepped in,

buying large quantities of tea russian oil provide in cash strapped moscow with much needed revenue. the u. s. considers china the biggest threat to its national security and fears. bay gee, could be exploiting rush as in battle, standing to expand it. geo political influence. hush about obama al jazeera. oh. well let's bring in our guests now. in moscow we have saga markov. he is the director of the institute of political studies in moscow. he was also a former public spokesman for president prison in beijing. is henry hugh, you are one. he is founder and president of the center for china and globalization think tank. and in washington, d. c. is toby gassy? she is a specialist in russia, u. s. relations. she's also a former special assistant to president bill clinton and a former senior director for russia, ukraine, and duration states at the us national security council. a warm welcome to you all

. thank you so much for joining us today on inside story. i believe this was what the 40th time that person and she have met. that's quite remarkable. i know they've previously celebrated birthdays together, may dumplings together have pledged their friendship without limits. so again, i know you have been very close with present person in the past. how would you characterize the she person relationship? why do you see it? because they respect the shower, much wonder which see because he is managing huge. she reaches almost vision, trying to work with all that are not you developing come what to expect when

much because why and what we can move out tonight. if she compare, what we're doing is we're mostly we just life such as buying down towards the microphone or i'm going to say very quiet more on how to reach why and every time i try to come to the bus stop 100 percent on did did mathematics if you paid also russia and china forgive me and be correlational all much

all i want to bring in henry here because you say that this is also about countering some kinds of aggression from the west. and i see more language has come out of this visit, very similar to what we saw in february last year. that was what 20 days, just before the russian invasion. now they've signed a joint statement. title, deepening the comprehend strategic partnership of coordination in the near era and stress settling the ukraine crisis through a dialogue that's a lot to cover in less than 3 days. and i notice that ukraine actually only gets a mention and point 9 of 9 henry for beijing. is this about ukraine, or is this more about a push for this so called new era? well, i think that's actually a presence she's visiting is very timely and of course, trying to just finish to section we got the new, you know, terms of the government to small and new state council. so traditionally, you know,

china and russia, john, the good relations are they have the longest orders in the war? i mean, so, so that's always a tradition of the, you know, they have both countries in good terms. but i think more significantly is that this time, as all ministry spokesperson mansion, this is a piece mission. just before presence, just visit a form is the chin gong actually spoke to ukraine for minister, and also a chance to talk to him about the wall. yes, mad you credit for the music or where i was the immunity conference attending the company as well so. so i think there's a lot of dialogue already. and also on top of that child on just publishing is a 12 point apiece position paper. i got the online channels piece plan for, for you, chris, russian conflict. and also of course are you know, that her john just broke to deal between. is it raw and somebody's on the piece

as well? it is about the ties. and so this time the charter went in to just to understand both of those positions to really a talking to has them put in and of course find out what's going on. and i think, you know, it's really good of cause where bad, bad religious issues too. so i want to really the plan in more detail in just a minute that i do want to bring. and toby head because from the language that we've had in these joint statements, and these are really half the things, a huge amount of language that both foreign policy starts and had to agree on in minute detail. it seems that the biggest thing that basing and monica have in common is the desire to counter us dominance. toby, how is all of this being viewed in washington? henry says, this is the piece mission well, and maybe a piece mission, but for china adds a piece mission for a piece of the russian economy for a lot of russian energy. and for many things that are much more important to china than the fate of ukraine. and the alternative reality that we see in the kremlin

and a meeting like this does not reflect the fact that russia is a declining power in terms of china and china. his biggest fear is that russia will not be able to handle the war in ukraine and it will lead to instability. china's fear has always been an instability on the part of many different countries. and i really think you're seeing a change in many relationships. just remember what's happening in the room is, is important. image is important for both public, certainly for prudence, public having been declared a war criminal last week and have enclosed having called memorial, which is an organization dedicated to exposing soviet or problems in the 1900 thirty's and forty's. i have enclosed it this week. this meeting is important to show that these 2 leaders can talk to each other, but make no mistake about it. china has a very clear agenda. china is

a rising power, and russia is just barely holding on. and i think it's really important that there, that russia's main leverage over china is the fear that russia will be unstable. and china does not want that doesn't want it because they have a long border and also because of the u. s. concerns but this toby lading did expand, but i really wish i'm not in a minute. i want to touch on something that you just spoke about that this level of instability as you say, a hugely long border. let's throw this to survey and i want to take upon a little bit. this chinese piece plan is 12 point piece plan and has been criticized in many places including in washington, but not being a road map to peace for not being concrete enough. how is it being viewed and moscow in moscow? this chain is because it's not so much for him, but more of

a few additional ball visitors under some those a concert you place. because from all of you see on the hor, to reinstall ration people from all you could say. busy people waiting should think about that because this war would be, this is, this is, was not what you want between the united states of america. and if you like me to give you a provision of the great wrongful solvent when united states or restaurant on the market, electric visits, or you creeds. and there was a dictatorship for up will be and you put it in your, in your, you putting it on a process. so we are good. it should take the thought. this was bought some time.

chinese plant mentioned not so much fun, but more reasonable. now there are, chinese principals didn't come here because the washing thoughts are usually good. it can, we say we are always that you're going to say it was or there was even was why we will care. but i will have to come to video or was that incentive? feisty. i'm going to come up disease. i want them to tell me here because you're saying the americans have no interest in ending the war. toby, do you think that i'm can go go for ok. i mean, i mean the china is very good. the chinese came forward with principles because the united nations also has principles and a trying to really cared about principles. it wouldn't have abstained on the

a. i'm a resolution and the security council on the war. those were the principles that was the you and that's the form. the chinese don't really want to do the hard work of making peace in ukraine and it's really far from them. you transfer from them. they have many, many it in asia. i can understand that. and so for the russians to think that the chinese are going to play any large role, i mean, imagine the conversation where she has to tell prudent what zelinski has told to him about russia's policy. i don't see this happening. this is not a chinese chinese role. well, i think the chinese have their own insurance, let her know about it. and then i think grocer to our guest, normal day thing in terms of the role that china hopes to play here. henry, i'm curious about where china sees this conversation going and, and where this desire to become, such a media is coming from, you mentioned the deal between iran and saudi arabia. the obviously trying to

become a bit of a broker in the global stage, but specifically it seems on issues where there are an interests at stake. is this about reputation building for she or doesn't go beyond that? or southerners, or is the chance repetition, of course. and char is trying to promote the talks on peace and, and altogether, i think right now, you know, as we hear that, you know, russian ukraine's rushing is a conflict about the b. ha, you know, behind that, behind you. okay. you got nato, you got the western countries. so china is actually busy talking to another to president bush, but also to west leader. some of you know, we were having the shells came here that they said, okay, there's no nuclear weapon should be used. but also we were having present the french press, the marco's coming you taliban used to come in, a spanish by mist. come in european president, you're coming here jermel for mr. coming over. so you have

a host of the people have a stake in the, in the fight that actually talking to the chimes so, so i think, you know, we probably also thought leaders, we talked to last at some point time. so i think, you know, channels positioning and i was more impressed. a number of little thing to china. i wonder, is there perhaps more space now for china to act as a mediator given the timing. we've now seen this, the west winds and issued for pearson by the i c. c. that could potentially limit his ability to travel or to dialogue with other leaders. toby, do you think that that creates more space for beijing? well, i think beijing, i'm out of stop looking at what's happening in nato and look what happened yesterday. the japanese prime minister was in boucher, was in ukraine. so i think the world around china is changing and away maybe the china is not too happy about i increase military spending in asia. so the consequence of this war are offered. china are very great and you know, china,

you talk about the iran saudi agreement. remember, there were talks for 2 years and then china came in at the last minute and broke the agreement. these things take a long time. i don't think china is going to invest in peace in, in, in ukraine. but it is very interested in having russia are, remain a stable country, a weaker country than china, for sure. economically in the agreements that are signed are very much in china's interest. i fuel an oil and gas to the china and trainees business in russia. but just remember the u. s. interest in talking to china is going to focus on one thing very clearly. do not send weapons to ukraine. i once i get running, it's in the weapons in a, in a minute. so be very different ball game. but one of the things you mentioned that

is these very, very comprehensive agreements that we've seen and it goes well beyond that, the kind of broader economics that we would necessarily expect. i notice that it, it also now says that the, the main stays on broadcast as of the 2 countries are going to be sharing content. now. so again, i know you know, how powerful a cultural voice so influences what, what's that's aimed at here as sharing. she'll be sharing lots of sharing and sharing content so that the to broadcast is from the 2 different countries. the state board cost of agreed to share content. and let me throw this to survey. i'm curious about what you think they're trying to aim out here in terms of trying to create a broader cultural influence to counter the west. perhaps. yeah. not so much again. so i'm actually trying to say to united states of america because russian and chinese,

if you were to continue with euro, euro nation in the nation, that would say you're not going to europe, it was china. and so russian china interesting about it. haitian euro james, i'm going to take your morning denise. so we'll start to do well. we might be in the 1950s. i mean we are listened to this. i mean listen to what we're hearing the words. it's like, it's like a bad dream. it really is, and i don't think china wants to be part of this bad dream. china is relations with the west or just to, to, to broad. an economics matter too much, sir. gay,

keep sending china all your oil and gas. so be very happy. they can reach out to europe as they've been doing and make money. this is a, yeah, let me run. that is i want to make sure that henry is also part of this conversation and giving the chinese point of view here. because as you say, economics is critical. you mentioned earlier that there was a speculation about whether or not china might supply alms to russia in this conflict. that's obviously very fine line. i know china has said there are no forbidden areas of cooperation, but that was before the russian invasion, henry, this is a really, really, i guess find balancing act here. how's that going? well, well, this time we haven't heard the limit to talking this time, but certainly, i mean the economic trade relation has always be improving. china wants to maintain good relations results with papers. of course,

why should be the largest neighborhood, john suddenly wants to maintain good relations, but same is always though with india was japan was ban. 6 with everyone is just now, i think china and russia, you know, that share a lot of, you know, same as i said, both bashing very hot by the us, particularly china, china usually even put before russian as you, as the number one bribery. so, so i think that that is the case that we want to maintain a global u and type of all down to good old countries has to be really have its own right to live up. and it's very clear here, henry, you don't see china at any point wanting to send weapons or arm russia in any way, because then it would but potentially face the same sanctions that russia is facing . what i said many times i'm you, charlotte, device minister, last your 7 shandra dialogue chunk does not provide any material built are supposed

to, russian and china only provided the humanitarian aid, so you can so, so i don't think john has a virus that child has actually been repeatedly saying they provide no, ah, military to, to, to the, to the regime for these fighting is what so. so i think that is of the 1st year, i think i've rolled up on the new york times last year at same time one was bull cause we will, we want to quote a you and you know, 7 party tom, that's p 5. or, you know, you grand with you less of a p, somebody i'm in china. the china is the only country and all that is ready to propose in peace talks. and you know, we have to add this by piece talk about the continuous fighting henry, i think you'll, it's really important that we sit down. tasha, you speak there. a about a global order. and one of the things that i found very interesting coming out of this visits now see in russia was that person seems to have endorsed the chinese again as the currency of choice over the us dollar or the euro. and he's now i

believe encouraging the developing world to also use it in its dealings with russia . survey from the russian perspective, what does this multi perla, economic order look like? busy a month, multiple or united states in europe, should they respect multi ideals of altering or also different nations, right? to different cultural and different differently. so the role so on it. and of course you're not the one who are all these sort of content. that's why we believe that

we are enjoying that right side of the program. and you say again, we are seeing a broader realignment here. so again, you were saying that this is about diversity wanting a multi polar. well, for that reason, toby, i want to ask you because i wonder if the view from washington is that this is now becoming 2 blocks, the west and europe, perhaps in the west, broadly on, on one side, russia and china on the other. is that the view and where does that leave the developing wild? i think that's of you. i think rush is developing a war economy and increasing its army, sending more troops to ukraine, controlling that society. china has no interest in a war economy. the economic model of russia has nothing to offer chinese development. i. it's hard to have an international currency based on, on china,

on china's currency. china uses the dollar. china wants trade with europe. that's one of the reasons they have good relations with bill or is because as see opening to europe, they're not giving up on europe because of ukraine. that is, that is for sure. so i to, i really don't see the world divided that way. i think the chinese leadership is very, very aware of china's, i'm rise and when you have a rising power you can afford to be a little more flexible. it's when you're on the defensive and you feel. ringback world is really against you, which is how russia feels that you make mistakes. and i really worry about that because china doesn't mind having a dependent roger or a weak russia, but it does not want to russia that is not stable. and that is why this meeting was so important because it shows china and russia together as stable countries. this is for a domestic audience. a lot of yes,

i'm often in something that you just said that the idea that russia is on the defensive and that china perhaps isn't. but we have been hearing some quite interesting language come out of china present. she has been criticizing the u. s. is and i quite hear all round containment and supplement and suppression of china. henry, that's some very deliberate cold war language there. well, what was it was to the cold war, a beads actually i'm about us is practicing for me. whatever father tried is company. i'm sorry to lose you when we have a trips or close to building the nucleus of arranged and that we have quads and we have a path. we have 5 eyes on nato's. i mean china is, is really pursuing economic organization. john wants to do about on the i b in our sab cpg, p d, r and all those things. so. so i see a different model of a pursuit because the us really a. busy zation and of course,

security charges was 3 more economical lies is included was china, africa, china, are china, larger american, china, central asia. so i think, you know, in the economic global as you have to go back to the basics, the economic organization will prevail because that's really bad and bunch of everybody and i, we have to, we will see. so you know, the banks collapsing you as in europe we will have to really come to the basics. i'm not really fighting this geopolitical or let's, let's go back, let's stop the war and let's really pursue peace that they can. um, go position. it's not perfect, but let's see, let's see has on is turned in the joe and, and that's worked together that's most important. and also what was the you quin, russian conflict? let's get you 7 know, 5 plus the use. you can't talk and lots of a few somebody. i mean the, you umbrella. that's make things move or not, not really have to start some. very interesting. it does feel like i'm sorry,

we're gonna have to leave it there that, but i do feel like we're seeing awhile now where economics is perhaps trumping politics here. we'll have to leave it there for now that thank you to all of our guests. same uncle henry here, wang and tavia, gassy, and thank you team for watching. you can see this program again any time by visiting our website that's al jazeera dot com. and for further discussion to go to our facebook page that to facebook dot com forward slash ha, inside story. remember, you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at a inside story for me and associates a and the whole team here. and uh huh. ah ah

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