now for a searcy air, more rain up against the border with syria and our earthquake zone, but really right across the la vance. we've got active weather on saturday. let's pick up this story in africa with the weather in the eastern mediterranean. i think showers seem likely for a cairo winds will be blustery as well in some big downpours. him is across the gulf of guinea, western cape province in south africa. still some showers, but not as bad as it has been over the last few days. enjoy your weekend, we'll see you soon. ah, it's a $1000000000.00 money long drink opperation for coal. marsha is bigger than the company with financial institutions, regulators and governments complicit about with in a 4 part series. our job here is investigative unit goes on to cover in southern africa, pittsburgh. we control 90 percent of the government. once it's pretty coined,

it's practically brandon, good. part one on al jazeera, tick tock is the worlds fastest growing social media. but the u. s. and some western government said, allows china access to private data and does the security threat the company and the chinese government both deny this. so who should we believe this is an type story? ah hello there and welcome to the program. i'm the style z, a k, now tick tock. the chinese owned video sharing up has one huge popularity globally with over a 1000000000 active uses. but it's also become another battle ground between the u . s. and china. washington says tick tock is effective. the spying tool will discuss the arguments with our guests and just a few moments. meanwhile, the,

the company's chief executive appeared before a congressional committee to answer questions. members of congress spent 5 and a half hours grilling shows you chew, accusing take talk of being controlled by china and a danger to teenagers. before the question began, he explained just how popular the app has become. 2 years ago, i became the ceo of tick tock. today, we have more than a 1000000000 monthly active uses around the world, including over a 150000000 in the united states. oh, app is a place where people can be creative and curious. and where close to 5000000 american businesses, mostly small businesses, go to find new customers and to fuel their growth. now tick tock itself is not available in mainland china. we're headquartered in los angeles and singapore, and we have 7000 employees in the us today. still, we have heard important concerns about the potential for unwanted for an access to

u. s. data and potential manipulation of the tick tock us because system our approach has never been to dismiss or trivialize any of these concerns. we have addressed them with real action are far from being order by tech talks, popularity, members of congress launched a barrage of accusations against the ap. here's some of what the chair of that committee and to say, chip talk, collect nearly every data point imaginable, from people go cation to what they type and copy who they talk to by electric data and more, even if they've never been on tech, talk your tractors, are embedded in sites across the when you talk surveilled us all and the chinese communist party is able to use this as a tool to manipulate america as a whole. while the chinese government reacted on friday to that debate in washington the day before and accused the united states and unfairly suppressing, take talk to him wouldn't go due to the chinese government,

a touch of great importance to protect data privacy and security. in accordance with the law, it has never and will not require companies or individuals to collect or provide daughter information and intelligence from foreign countries for the chinese government. the government has not provided any evidence so far to prove that tick tock threatens us national security. but it has repeatedly presumed guilt and unreasonably suppressed. the company, the u. s. should earnestly respect the principles of market economy and fair competition and provide an open fare. just environment for companies from all countries, to invest and operate in the u. s. while among the 150000000 active users in the united states, their support for tick tock with some even saying that a band would stop them doing business. the conversation i'm seeing now on tick tock is the the concern that i really feel which is i am a business owner. i have 15 team members. i have a book and a podcast, and we are a financial education company. we work to educate women about how to save money and

pay off debt, and we have $2300000.00 followers on tick tock. it is by far our biggest audience, and if tick tock were to be banned, that would mean severe repercussions for me and literally thousands and thousands of united states based businesses that employ united states citizens. ah, well let's bring in our guests now in beijing we have an a tang and he is a senior fellow at the time institute. that's an independent think tank based in china and new york. we have sarah crept cheese, the founder and director of the technology policy institute at cornell university. and in dublin, adrian went glenn, technology editor at the irish independent and also the host of the big tech showed podcast a warm welcome to each of you. and now, before we get into the politics of this, which is obviously very charged, i do want to break down a couple of the big issues here that the u. s. has taken with take talk. firstly, data collection and influencing opinion. adrian, i'll start with you. i want to understand what sort of data we're talking about

here. this is obviously a huge number of uses. something like one in 3 americans. how far does that data collection go? well, it's like every other social media platform, that means your location, your name, what you do, what you're interested in, maybe watching by including trackers that might follow you around the rest of your phone or the rest of the internet. so like other internet or websites and social media platforms, we are talking about a very, very complete picture of your life. adrian, is there any big difference here when it comes to other social media apps and take talk? it does take talk, have some kind of special way of getting more information and say, mess. so instagram. no, there isn't a material difference between those social media platforms where the controversy here arises in who might potentially have access or maybe influence

the users. they're the one in 3 in america, for example, who used to talk with matter with google, facebook, instagram, twitter, and all of the rest. there is an understanding, maybe even a grudging acceptance, that western governments, the u. s. government particular sometimes accesses that data for its own means maybe sometimes influences. it's where the controversy is with tick. tock is the extent to which if at all, the chinese government accesses that data in a secret way or might secretly influence users, right? so there is a law in china that requires private companies based on china to give data to the chinese government. should the chinese government request that now i know mr. chu said multiple times in that congressional hearing that they haven't been asked for any days that know how they handed over any data, but a, let me throw this one to you. that's understandably concerns around security risk then. yes, and the, the vice versa,

the u. s. has the same ability to sometimes go through a court, sometimes not as that. many leaks have exposed. the fact is the u. s. spies on everybody. so this idea that somehow they're shocked, shocked that china might get. this is a laughable, but let's go beyond that. there is no proof in the, in the united states, i'm a lawyer. i can tell you that the generally before you have a hanging, you generally have a trial and there's an ability to say who accuses me and what am i accused of and show me some proof. in this particular case, there is not, this is a political, a lynching, and it's being done simply to distract voters out there. you know, you, you know, we have a $3.00 trillion dollar debt crisis. we have banks failures, inflation, low growth, political polarization, gun deaths, racism, global warming, foreign policy, bro, a broken countries, treaties and international institutions. and you know, we've made

a hypocrisy of charting the rule of law international order while undermining the debbie t o. brett, breaking, you know, the climate accord agreements that we went into in kyoto and also paris. i mean, i do want is just nonsense. so i want to stick specifically to what we're talking about in terms of take talk. i, i know that there are broader disagreements here between the us and china. now i want to bring in sarah, just picking up on something that and alluded to them. if this data sharing law in china is such a huge concern. that presumably would be a basis for banning any or chinese private companies from appraising in the u. s. re. yeah, so i think there are a couple of, i mean, so many important issues here. one of the issues is not just whether this access is happening right now, but i think one of one of the things i don't think we've talked much about so far

is the backdrop of the us china relationship right now, which is very fraught. and what i think we need to see this is a data point in a broader picture. so we know as of october of last year the u. s. had impose very stringent export control on a technology. the u. s. i've done that on semi conductor chips. and this i think, is the part of that bigger picture, and it's not just whether chinese engineers, which that's the kind of didn't review yesterday that chinese engineering have access to that data. but it says question the precautionary principle with respect to kind of any future activity as well that the us seems to want to be guardian again. so i do want to at this point, just to clarify who actually owns, take talk, bite down the parent company, confirmed that what 60 percent of its chairs are owned by global investors 20 percent by employees, 20 percent by its founders. now i understand in 2021,

a chinese owned stays enterprise did by a stake in by dance. they even now have a seat on the board. no tick tock has tried to distance themselves from all of this . but let me ask you adrian, as someone who watches the tech industry, does the chinese government have a stake in any o besides overtake talk? well, it's quite vague. there is talk of a golden share in by chance um and other companies. but the transparency there is quite vague. we do know that as you pointed out by dance, is a chinese company that is the owner of tick tock. now i'm, it is correct to say that there is no direct evidence of interference yet, or the very scant examples. the problem is there is a very direct evidence of beijing interfering with big tech companies in china when they stand up to the government. so by chances founder and c, e o chairman john,

john, you mean he was basically forced to stand down last year. we've seen tech giants like alley bothers jack. a world global star effectively disappeared and, and made to stand out from the company in this kind of climate. when you talk about ownership and regulation and the influence that the chinese state has on a company like bypass, you cannot ignore the fact that at the moment it's cracking down on tech companies . and if you were to refuse a request, for example, if there were a secretive request to access data or to influence the algorithm, it's more likely than not based on the evidence we have with other big tech ceos that you would face series personal repercussions in china i'm going to let you respond to that. well, it's nonsense. i mean, you know, i can, if you, if i say to you, you don't like your mother law. therefore i'm going to rescue from murder. i mean, if you have to do something and as, as far as iris jones, i see right now it's,

where's jack, mom jack, mom right now is in japan. the last i heard he was studying things. he was taken down because he had gotten too big. he decided that he wanted to make policy and sort of follow it. i his, in essence, he had crowded as much of massive entity that he was taxing people not providing services. and that is where things and their have the same concerns in us with meta and all the rest of them that they have grown so large that they are in essence too big to fail. kind of like the banks and things like that. now you can defend them, these great behemoths and things like that in their massive amounts of, of shareholders and funds that hold them. but the fact is, china is very concerned about the market being working, which means that it does not want to have these kind of a huge conglomerates run by individuals who decide what the fate of the world should. b, u. s. has eli musk you're welcome to, but at this juncture,

this idea that you can put a, you can take somebody's property because you suspect that they might do something. well, i would stand to you that that would not stand the test if somebody wanted to take your house or your job. all right? and right now this is about to take about 5000000 people's jobs and the people who worked for them. i went out and says here that they don't have to know what's going on in a minute, but i do want to focus on, on one very specific element. and that was brought up in the congressional hearing and which will say, sarah mentioned, you mentioned the beijing engineers there. now there was an incident which, which tick tock actually agreed to had happens late last year in december 2022, where a number of engineers in china did track you. journalist they used to days that they had from tech talk, tracking this us john list. and then to find out, i believe who,

who might be leaking information about take talk. now take talk is saying that was a bit of a rogue operation. but sarah, that's obviously not going down very well over in the u. s. re, i think what that is is kind of a proof of concept of the way in which this platform or the access and relationship between the platform and, and individuals in china and the way in which that could be used for influence and manipulation. and that journal is, by the way, it had written the story based on inside, lighter sources, about bite dance using a news app to push pro chinese messages. and so that was a big part of yesterday's hearing as well on capitol hill, which is the way in which this platform could be to manipulate public opinion through things like another. one of the good examples that came up yesterday was the prevalence of misinformation about elections and how much of that stayed up on tick tock, relative to other

u. s. these platforms. i'll throw this back to you for a response here, but i do want to point out, you said that there wasn't direct evidence of government influence or intervention, but here we do have direct evidence of a number of people in china using private data to track someone without the knowledge well necessary, if you're going to use that standard. now 1st off, these were corporate people, this was not the government that was doing it. so if you want to ascribe, you know, whatever corporations due to the country, there wouldn't be a single u. s. company up in fortune 500 still left standing because they've all done it. they've all had mistakes and things like that where they've been pursuing their corporate interest not pursuing the u. s. government's interest. so that's fallacious, you know, bringing this out and trying to fear monger people into believing that the potential is there,

goes against everything that we say we stand for in america. the rule of law, presumption of innocence. the idea that you have a trial before your summarily lynched. i mean, this is nonsense. you can say all these things about what you're for afraid of everyone is afraid. the question is, what do we, how do we go forward already the u. s. is erected a tech wall on hardware saying that china shouldn't have access to chips. they shouldn't have access to chip making machines. now they want to extended to software. where does it stop? how, how big do these walls have to be before people start being afraid? i would it still being about more walls make people more afraid? so what you're talking about trying to find a way for it. i see tick tock is trying to do that. and they've said that they've come up with a plan that they're calling it project, texas. they want to keep you as days on us serve as maintained by u. s. company. adrian. i mean that sounds like it and pretty good deal for the us now. on one level, it is and there's a similar plan in europe, covent,

they call project clover, partly because the data centers in which the data will be hired are partly here in dublin, ireland. so it's not to us with the clover. but the essential problem is the absolute 190 degrees opposite to what i was saying. you cannot compare like with like and there are very very scams, trials in china. if you are the ceo tech company there, there's a very good chance that you'll be put under house arrest. very good chance in the next 12 months because of the current practice. so these are very relevant factors in trauma. where do you get off saying, such as, how much time have you spent in china? how much time i've been there a couple of times. i don't know how many times i'm going to ask. is it a non issue or justify a point that isn't there?

i would like to ask you are of influence that takes on journalism, that's fear mongering. let's take a moment and return to the infants that tick tock has specifically on young people . i was having to look at some of the numbers. the app is used by what 67 percent of us, teens, that's according to peer. now this was will say, raised in the hearing. i want to have a lesson to talk also. targets are children. the for you algorithm is a tool for tick tock to own their attention and pray on their innocence. within minutes of creating an account, your algorithm can promote suicide. self harm and eating disorders to children encourages challenges for them to put their lives in danger and allows adults to prey on our beautiful beloved daughters. it's also a portal for drug dealers to sell elizabeth fentenol that china has band yet is

helping mexican cartels produce. send across our border and poise in our children. we care about our economy in we sure as heck here about our children. we sure do. and that's why you're here today, because 2 thirds of all the youth in our country are on your, on your app. they spend an average of 95 minutes on your app. the chinese communist party is engaged in psychological warfare through take talk to deliberately influence us children. ok, so obviously some very charged language. debit does taking a step back from the direct accusations that china will come to the isn't in a minute. but just looking specifically at the issue of influence on social media. that's obviously a big issue and multiple apps, messa instagram is there is take talk while in some way it was what was interesting about yesterday and that the ceo kept saying, well,

these are industry standards, the industry standards, and to some extent that's true. and one of the things i heard yesterday that i hadn't heard for a long time was reference to comprehensive privacy legislation. so it seems as though hopefully that is the case because there are these kind of more pervasive privacy issues. but one of the things, i think, again, that kind of raises it, raises questions about kind of company that if you have us headquartered and you have value versus china, is, is how that might be use to influence. and i mentioned the information about the fundamental aspect of democracy like election. but i thought it really interesting when the fios said that his kids are not on thick talk because it is not permitted under the age of 13 and singapore. and i wasn't sure whether he fell into a trap but, but by acknowledging that there are other countries around the world that think

that this isn't suitable for kids under 13. and then they talked about the user experience for an 8 year old here in the us and it's very protected. but what the, all of them seem to get is how easy it is to find stuff those age restrictions. so i think there were just a number of these kinds of issues that went on answer it yesterday. well, i see the conversation around this issue got particularly heated. i want to play you another except in the hearing yesterday. your technology is literally leading to death. mr. to yes or no. do you have full responsibility for your algorithms used by tick tock to prioritize content to its users? yes or no, please. a congressman, i'll just like to if, respectfully, if you don't mind, i would just like to start by saying is devastating to hear about the news of yes, i suppose it myself. it is a certain yes or no. i'll repeat the question. do you have for responsibility

over the algorithms used by tick tock to prioritize content, to which users? yes or no, please. a congressman we, we do take these issues various yet. yes or no. and we do provide resources for anyone who's types in anything that sir. yes or no. i see you're not willing to answer the question or take any responsibility for your parents, companies, the technology and the harms it creates. it's just very, very sad, very sad. now the turn that struck me as particularly a hostile and we so many other hostile exchanges throughout the hearing. at times, i believe they questioned mr. chu on beijing's treatments of the weekends, and he singaporean for a stop and he wanted to focus on tick tock. and he said, sir, at, we've seen other tech companies in congressional hearings, but it doesn't feel like it was quite like this. i know, let me ask you about your take on the tone him well i, i thought you were planning

a retake of the mccarthy hearings. i mean have you stop beating your wife? i do agree that there have asked to be standards, but they have to be industry wide centers taking tick, tick tock off. the board is not going to change. if you do not have standards that protect your younger children. and that's the real issue here. if you want to go out that i'm all for and i think everybody else is. but this idea that by slamming tick tock you will solve the problem is nonsense. or the chinese government has obviously way then they've opposed the sale. that doesn't seem to help tick tock, succession of independence here. but they also seem to be arguing that there is an intellectual property component that they don't want to explore the algorithm. adrian, is that fair? i? it's difficult to say that that is fair. i would agree that the, the tone of the congressional hearing was slightly absurd. it was more one of grandstanding than anything else. i. we didn't really learn anything you thought

that said i thought that char, to the ceo of tick tock did a very bad job in trying to convince people that the act can be safe. and the fact that the chinese government came out hours before his in his performance to say that they would potentially block the sale of tick tock from by chance. completely undermines, show, choose assertion that the company is independent and makes its own decision to badly damaged his argument about that the intellectual property value of the algorithms involved doesn't really stack up. well, this was a big pipe partisan push this time a departure from what we saw in 2020 when president trump wanted to band tick tock then. but the people who was sitting in that congressional hearing on tick tock, men, demographic, right. sarah, do you think that there might be political consequences in the us,

especially amongst young people, if a band does go forward, you know, i, it, it, i don't because it's one of these rare issues in washington where both parties, both differently agree at one point someone welcome to might have been the same individual. we just heard. welcome to the most bipartisan committee in congress. and there was some consensus on this issue. so if, if a disgruntled young person is irritated at the political process, they have nowhere to turn because both parties are in alignment here. so, but actually it's interesting to that there is a reasonable amount of support, even among users of tick tock, something like 25 percent of the users with none the less supportive in the data. the public opinion polling on this is interesting because 2 thirds of americans are skeptical of the independence of the,

of the app. so it would be very interesting to see what happens. but on the political side, i think actually congress is fairly inoculated from any blow back, but you're absolutely right, that a, it was gram standing and be they are not really the target graphics. so there is a way in which this is a little bit problematic in the sense that they're not the ones affected, but they're trying to legislate something that will affect a very different than my graphic. so i'll let me leave the last question with you very, very briefly. can you give me a sense of, from beijing, of what a sale, if a say a was at any point go forward, might look like i'm presumably you need a huge amount of money to buy tick tock. yeah, absolutely. it's a big thing that they would only be buying probably the us side of it. so i don't know, but i mean, i just have to respond to one issue that my friend from ireland to said he said he was amazed that china would block the sale of something. well, is he amazed that the u. s. is blocking the sale of computer chip equipments, it ships to china, not only its own, but other countries. well,

it's clearly i even use social media platforms in china. i mean, literally the greatest firewall in the world is in china. and that's not something that i necessarily agree with, but i that is, that is something that the country has addressed, not through a kangaroo court, but the through policy while is clearly a very divisive issue of one. we'll continue watching closely here on out as era. in the meantime though, thank you to all of our guests for a very robust discussion today. i know tang and sarah crypts and adrian rec plan and thank you to for watching. remember, you can see this program again any time by visiting our website that's out there a dot com. and to further discussion do go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story. remember, you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at ha, inside story for mean associate a and the whole team here. and uh huh. ah,

ah, a breaking down the headlines to exposing the powers attempting to silence reporting what to do. what did you investigate? why didn't you ask? the 2nd question, there are many during that said, fencer, it will have, but you think effect on subsequent story? the listening post doesn't cover the news. it covers the way the news is covered to suppress moderate. and in some cases, amplify the content you see on your timeline. the listening post on al jazeera,

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