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either a 1000000 people on the streets of france for weeks now the friendship in protesting against the president's plan to change the retirement age. but why is emmanuel the crime so determined at the opposition? so intense, this is inside story. ah, hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan, changing frances state pension system to one that's more affordable to the state was a central plank of emanuel microns reelection campaign. it's now, however, become the central issue in french politics and opposition to his presidency. strikes and protests intensified this week. some turning violet with hundreds

arrested across the country, transports and other public services have been hit with mounds of uncollected rubbish on the streets of paris. ensuring a constant and unpleasant reminder of the dispute. the plan includes a proposal to raise the retirement age from 62 to 64, across use his executive powers to push through the changes because he couldn't get enough support in parliament. this as increased the opposition that he faces, but also it seems, or crohn's resolve so forth through the measure. he condemned this week's violence, but doesn't appear to be budging on the issue. that of you lost good in this thing, the benefits that you in the face of violence with which i distinguish from the protest continue to be extremely firm. then on that topic, i condemned to violence. we saw the b, i remind era one of their responsibilities, and i re sure to law enforcement forces like who did an exemplary work with my full support as everything else. we continued to move forward. the country deserves that

and needs it. who will give no ground to islands? none in a democracy, there isn't the right to be violent. and we expect our law enforcement in respect to complete a deal with the transparency in investigations. but i don't put that on the same footing as what's happening in suicide. it will give no ground to while and condemn it with the utmost clarity or after the violence in paris. the cities mass of the situation was, quote, explosive and very chaotic, everywhere and close, and had to go once dialogue and from a chrome to drop his plans. if we want to calm the country, there are many options to get out of it. dialogue must be re established and dialogue can not be re established by ignoring and explosive and very chaotic situation everywhere. so there you have it. i'm campaigning for the withdrawal of this law. well, opinion polls suggest the changes are widely unpopular,

but let's see what people on the streets of paris have to say to secure condemn all of this damage that claims a completely legitimate. we can agree or disagree, but it is legitimate. it's just the rules must be respected to national that you're like, i'm lucky enough to be working at the job and office, but i see work is carrying heavy loads and things like that. so i can understand they're being told they will live 5 or 6 years in good health. they retire. well, now we'll take him back to those years. it's something violent coming from the government. every one in paris appears to be caught up in the dispute. even the many tourists to visit the city spout demonstrating to the government. what they've done is over. and the fact that the president has taken that decision with no backing from his own party, all the people is insane to me. the money does need to come from somewhere to pay for the pension so that people can retire, but the solution isn't to take power into the hands of one person with no voice for

the people is crazy. i think if you always worked with the idea that you're gonna go on a pension at a certain age and then it changes it, difficult to accept because i think re me changes, we are getting older and that someone has to pay for their friendship. so i think that i understand the governments, there's a lot of passion, ah, definitely by the french people. it's a difficult situation on both sides, financially, the struggle of maintaining the, the retirement age and, and also maintaining enough and a funds. so at some compromise i think needed, but yeah, difficult situation all around. well, in a moment we'll be discussing president microns pension reform plans with our guests . but 1st, let's take a closer look at what he actually wants to do. the reform he says is to provide for the future and ease the financial button on the state. he's asking people to work

for 2 more years to make the system more sustainable in the long term. at the moment, french men retire at 62. that's 2 years earlier than the e. u. average of 64 french women retire at 61 forecast. say that they'll be few people around to pay taxes to fund francis state pensions in the a 2000. there were $2.00 workers for each retiree, but by 2070 that's expected fall to just $1.00 workers for each retiree. ah, so let's bring it all guests from copenhagen were joined by actual person union representative for railway workers of general confederation of labor from paris. laura malo, the paris correspondent of the irish times, and from san romeo. the performance is paul taylor contributing editor of politico and senior fellow with the friends of europe. think tank a warm welcome to you will laura, i'm gonna start with you mccomb claims that the way a, his prime minister ran this legislation through without going to

a vote was perfectly democratic. how can that be? how does it work? i democratic my i, i, it's not democratic because it's a very, very important societal issue and it should have been voted on. and i have spoken to many, many people who said that they supported my call up to that point. but then you cannot round legislation like this through a national assembly without a vote. now, his rationale and the rationale also used by the prime minister, is that the, what they call it 49.3. that's the article of the constitution. the mechanism that was used to pass it without a vote that led to to no confidence motions, which were both defeated on monday, last monday, the 20th of march. and when a no confidence motion fails,

then the legislation then does become law. so he said basically we followed the constitutional rules, the mechanisms, therefore it is democratic, okay, but technically is, but it does, it, does that, laura, make it legitimate? was it was that, was that the next question? well, so they, for 3 quarters of the french people, it is not legitimate. i'm not home on television 2 days later. and he made these arguments and he also said that people are living longer. there actually were people supporting the pension system. this isn't a necessity. he said he was totally thompson's and that made it even worse. the 2 big turning points in this whole crisis were the 16th of march when they rounded through without a vote. and she's the parents on television, on wednesday, when he showed no understanding whatsoever of the anger in the streets against him

. bolt, i saw you smiling riley when, when i asked, but this were whether this was, was, was democratic what, what's your take on this? well yeah, i agree with, with a lot of what laura said about the fact that it would have been better to have alimentary vote. fact is that for tactical reasons, some of the groups which in parliament, which actually support for a later retirement age, including the guy who pose the, the confidence motion that got the most the most support are actually in favor of, of a later retirement. but for tactical reasons, they wants to embarrass mackerel, or else they were scared of going against their own voters by, by voting with him. and so in the end, he wasn't sure he'd have a majority. but i think the legitimacy argument, you have to say, michael actually campaigned and was re elected as president on a promise to raise the retirement age to 65. he then said, or i,

i hear that that's unpopular. i'll raise it to 64 and not immediately, but in a stage process. um and you know, there were 100 more than a 100 hours of debate in parliament about the opposition adopted blocking tactics. nobody's questioning. was it legitimate for the, for the left rear opposition to put down something like $15000.00 amendments? you know, many of which were trivial and clearly designed only as an obstruction using every trick in the parliamentary book. to prevent this ever coming to a vote, they didn't want it to come to a vote. now they demanding that it, that it should come to a vote and saying it was illegitimate because it didn't come to them, but they were the ones with all their obstruction tactics in parliament who made that impossible. so i think on the other, the thing is that on the fundamentals of the, if you look around europe, you know,

there are countries such as the you k, which have retirement. now at 67, they're getting their gradually germany of 67 going to 69 in sweden, which many people look at as a social demo, classic model for, ah, europe, there, it's 69 and thinking of going to 70. so let's not forget that this is happening everywhere and it's happening. it's an inexorable fact that when the socialists cut the retirement age to 60 way back in 90 in the, in the early 19 eighties, president meet their off was the, the president who did it. at that time they were for a workers for every person retiring. and the average life expectancy was 74. today, the average life expectancy in france is 83. so we've gained 9 years and you know, raising the retirement age is never popular. um, the difference is that in other european countries,

people understand or the economic rationale doing it, the demographic rationale for doing it in france, they prefer posturing, protest, you know, in the realities of people in france actually already retire older than 62. and because of the number of contribution years they need in order to reach a full pension. so the, the current average retirement age i think, is about $62.00 and a half and it's going up. so it's the difference between the reality of life and the symbolism excell. let's, let's put that to you. what do you make of what paul was saying? the french don't do so badly in terms of pensions compared to the european neighbors in the, the u. k. i was as paul was saying, island switzerland to well, you know, and that's an argument we hear and you can pretty much all issues. but right now i'm visiting our comrades in denmark to raise money for like 5. ready sumps,

and they're telling us about the same thing about every time the employers or the governments attack our social rights. they pretend that it's because, you know, we're talking, it is the only country where it's still exist and we must be line of self with the other of labor that has was right with working conditions. and we don't really care about i don't really care about the argument that this was elsewhere. i mean, that's what we are saying here in france. i mean the work is what organized. we're going to struggle against my client. employers on this issues is that there is no economical justification for this, for this violent attack on our pensions. okay, so what if we live longer than before in, in why should we be giving the years we are gaining over best? why should you be getting into an employer? why should be giving it to the state? we want those here that we have managed to gain over desk. we want them to have the key time for kids, for a blanket or a ledger of us after a hard time neighbor. it's as simple as that. and there is no economic justification for the attack because the government is saying that eventually in 10

to 15 years now your projected deficits of the pension system that would go down to perhaps 10000000 or 20 billions a year in the worst case scenario. but you can take a minute and look at these numbers 10 to 20 billions a year is less and i mean, nest than the profits made some time by single corporations. it was ample as a corporation in france. a company called c. m s c j m. which is a shipping company that this year rates $36000000000.00 annual in profit. it mean that a single company in plants, the single one, not all the 10000. the single one can pay the inter deficit for the $25.00 millions of workers and still have 16 billions of profit enough for their own shareholders and owners. so there is money to fund or so services or pensions. i, a wage is better, public services is just that our enemies are emptying our pockets to feel theirs. so we are fighting to not be robbed basically. so that's why people are pissed off

and considering the fact that the government has no majority in public opinion, no majority in its own parliament and its own parliament, its own institution. and it doesn't even have any support at all. so that's what you're fighting. and what use except any digital from the government, i will continue to fight by all means necessary. i appreciate that. the passionate, the feeling is, is running red hot right now, but we gotta be careful with, with language on the tv less for that right back to pull. then there is the money to pay for this. you've just got to tax corporations a little more on the rich. yeah. well, you know, there isn't any issue in france where the answer of the trade unions of the left is not to say you have to tax the rich more. france actually already has the highest tax burden of any country in europe, except the one that axel has to be visiting today. denmark, we're right up there with denmark already. how much higher can we go without a killing?

the goose that lays the golden age france has a generous welfare system compared to all of its neighbors. and rightly so, this is a country that still has very good public health provision. it's a country that has a public education system where you might want to send your children, unlike some other countries. and these are things which cost money and the french taxpayer, including corporations pay for them. you can light on one company which had a win for profit this year. either a shipping company because of the freight charges or an energy company because of the price spike in, in oil, and then say steel, take the money from them. let's have a, a sudden tax on them. but ultimately the french economy will, will collapse and. ready the burden of evermore taxation at some point and macro is the, is the president who said, i'm not going to raise taxes anymore. he's more or less held to that. and you can't

go on living on public borrowing indefinitely, either is francis discovering because now the interest rates are going up. that means the government has to pay more and more interest every year on its budget. and now having to pay more and interest that it pays for example, for education. so if i was concerned about education and about the other social benefits, i would say, let's get more people back into work. let's grow the economy and let's keep the tax burden. where it is all trying, bring it down somewhat so that ah, france can or manage with a small deficit or a people are obviously very angry as we said, feelings are running pretty high at the moment. asthma crohn messed this up and he said his, his only regret is that, that he hasn't managed to convince the french people of the necessity to do this. oh yes, the government has handled the communications very poorly. indeed. for me,

the most shocking thing was back in january, the government said that everyone in france would receive a minimum pension of $1200.00 euro a month. and when you consider that some of the lease paid are only getting $78900.00 a month, that was quite an improvement except, but then it turned out when you read the fine trends, it's not everyone in the country, it's a few tens of thousands of people more, they never really get a clear explanation for why that they made that mistake. ah, they also said it was good for women and it's not good for women. as you said, women retire on an average of 61, and now they're going to be forced to work to 64 and not getting the same credit that they got before for, for having career breaks, should have children. and they all of the experts i've talked to say that the burden of this reform is really on the lower paid members of society

and not on the white collar workers and the upper at all. and we've seen this over and over with my clothes here. that's why it has a reputation for being the president of the rich. he's never been forgiven by the public for having been a merchant banker at ross child bank. and he really defends the interest of big business. and he believes in a way, maybe he's right in some ways because investment in france is much higher than it was when he came to office. foreign direct investment is, is, i believe, the highest in europe was before these riots anyway. but now you see the very badly, in fact, his performance on wednesday, 76 percent of people who were pulled by. and if you go so that they were just not convinced and 78 on times him arrogance. ah. so then there is also,

in addition to the issue of being forced to retire 2 years later as an also a personality question a couch, a question that many, many friends people just do not like a manual. now con, but i shouldn't say to be fat. this is classic for france, the french elect, a providential man, a savior. ah. and then within months, they hate him and want to chop his head off so that they're all sorts of traditions at work in his. okay, we'll explore that little more in a moment, but 1st, so i want to go back to axel. micron says the law must enter into force by the end of this year. what of the protest move of? we saw the piles of rubbish on the streets of paris that the metro public transport is, is running intermittently. and do you think it will come into force by the end of the, or are you convinced that the, that the protests can force him to back down?

i'm convinced the ongoing protest and strikes can force them to back down the workers and use continue to mobilize, expand the items to find the mobilization because the government is going to have a serious problem. and they already already identified it is because the whole narrative of the government has been to say that this government has been run through part of the south. now you have to accept it and the claim to oppose the so called legitimacy of the government. again, just to make up the street friendship, you know, saying, but it doesn't work because there's they even according to police standards, not only to trade, union numbers, even according to police numbers. for example, in paris with the highest turned out of the demonstrations, the beginning of the demonstrators in january. and we'll call them for another general day of action on the next tuesday. and we will continue to do so. and what has been interesting now is that there are some error, some sectors of the garbage disposal workers love in us, right. and who have now been to some extent horseback to work because the

government has an issue to decrease that force back some workers to work site and funding terry issues and threatening basically workers was prison and find that they don't tend to work. but as a reaction to that have been strikes, organizing other sectors. and what i really saw last thursday was that the many school high school students and university students turned out and much higher numbers than the previous demonstrations, which indicates that there are new forces during the battle and which were pause as soon as i spoke to the government will we win, i hope we will win, and i know we can win because all the conditions for victory are now being gathered . but it also will depend on the result and to the termination of the morality of those fighting men. we will do everything in our power to keep the spirit up. but that's also why we're having massive fundraising for our strike funds, even international yesterday. and we hope we will bring in a few who are for all our friends and friends and comments to make sure they can last as long as possible in order to win. and when i say when it means that the government has to retreat and back down and scratch this law,

and that never see the day of late for you've been traveling around france this week. but what, what is the mood? what do you make of the protest movement? does it have the potential do you think to grow, to become a more violent and explosive and, and will it be enough to force the president the back down? well, i think i think those 2 things are separate. now will it, will it grow? it does have a potential to go to, to grow. yes. will it become more violent if it becomes more violent it won't grow . and that's one of the problems. ready is that so far until last. ready until this week, really on the train unions have been very discipline that would be very good at keeping the peace, but the protest peaceful. and therefore, they've had strong public support for the, the more it turns violent, the more you know, the, the sort of anarchist fractions get involved in it, which we've seen in the, in the last few days. i think the more likely that it will lose popularity. and the

fewer people may turn out, but i think the, the, you know, there, if you look at, you look at these things historically these, these movements do blow up with rare exceptions. in the end, the government prevails the, the rule of law. ready prevails over the rule of the street. however, the b one, a 2 exceptions president, chirac and his prime minister dominic developer, were forced to back down in 2006. they introduced a special work contract for 1st time workers for young people, which gave them a job protection, but at a lower salary. and that a protest movement against that lead the government to withdraw it even after it has become law and decide never to implement it. i don't think that will happen this time because i think actually a lot of the people, including a lot of people who voted against it or protested against it, know that this law is necessary. increasing the amount of time people need to work

for pension is necessary just as it's been necessary everywhere in europe. and so i think that when we get to the easter school days and then may with all of the public holiday days and so on, i, this movement will eventually blow out. that said, i think it will lead fronts, very ambition. i agree with a lot of what laura said about michael's personal unpopularity of the heresies made, not only in communication, but in not showing empathy with, with people. i think he needs to weigh now to try to engage with the unions on things to do with the quality of life to do with working conditions to do with dope or elderly people are still at work. i'm sorry to interrupt you for what, what time is rapidly running out here. i mean, i just want to throw that to, to laura, and i'm picking up on what he was saying

a few minutes ago in the financial times. this week. journalist simon cooper said french anger transcends pensions and microns high handedness, his personal unpopularity that we were talking about. and there's a generalized long term rage against the state in france and it's embodiment the president. is he right? oh, yes, absolutely. i mean, and it's as if the french were condemned to forever replay for 1789 the nation. i've seen it. i've been a correspondent in france for decades, and i have covered countless demonstrations. i always remember a lawyer i met in a lease, a students march at least 10 or 15 years ago. i said, i'm a parent, are you a teacher? she said no. and i said, what are you doing here? and she said, just the manifest day. i love to demonstrate and there is that article you

mentioned the f t also talked about the glamorous tradition of revolt since 1789. and there is something sort of trendy unglamorous and i think people enjoy there's a sort of theatrical elements to, to all of it, to the, the, the rubbish bins on the fire and the fireworks and, and the smoke and the grenades. and even, even the way the police line are facing the demonstrators and then make charges. huh. you know, with that, holding out their shields and with their helmets and their battles and everything was if they would just sort of mingle with the demonstrators just sort of gently, you know, keep an eye on things. i think it would be different, but that there is this confrontation which is seems to be written into the dna a france. ah. so will they ever change? i doubt it. i mean, going back from one moment to how with this and there have been 3 appeals to the constitutional counsel and my car has said he will talk to the labor unions again.

once the constitutional counsel takes its decision. ok if the constitutional counsel finds that this law is unconstitutional, that basically would end the crisis. if on the other hand, they will validate it and it becomes law. and then the question is will the demonstrations go on and on on? i agree with paul that probably die down in the summer. ok. so what we saw at the age of this year is that they started up again, traumas for well over a year. yeah. i'm sorry. laura to interrupt you. we've, we've, we've run out of time and i'm sorry, actual i wanted to come back to you as well, but um, unfortunately, the way the news waits from, no man that's, that's coming up next to al jazeera. many thanks to you all for being part of our discussion today. and thank you for watching. so if you get, you can see the program again at any time by visiting our website, which is at al jazeera dot com for further discussion. join us on our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha,

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