problems, so we're seeing that wet weather anywhere from around pon, job, right, the way into west spangled things will dry up as we go on into sassed. i bestow few showers around the foothills of the himalayas, isn't i? which was bangladesh. the far northeast of in the eastern part. so saying a little bit of fright, but brightening for sunday. ah. but the journey from childhood into young adulthood is speckled with tribulation. for youngsters like rima autism is another challenge to add to the makes gong to with a loving family and a caring friend. she bravely lives lunch and chases her dreams as she finds her place in the world. oh, see me as i am a witness documentary on out his era. both sides in libya's war, committed crimes against humanity,

more crime. not according to you and investigators. they say the european union was also involved to who will hold them to account. this is inside story. ah hello there, welcome to the program. i'm nick clock. united nations investigated se security forces, an armed militia groups in libya, have committed a wide range of war crimes and crimes against humanity. they say they have evidence of abuse is carried out against libyans and migrant stranded in the country, commissioned by the you and human rights council. the pedal also accused the european union of aiding and abetting abuses by sending support to libyan forces. un investigators documented hundreds of cases of murder, torture, rape,

enslavement, sexual slavery, arbitrary detention, extra judicial killings, and enforced disappearances. they found evidence that libya authorities curtailed rights to assembly association expression and belief in order to insure a be the ins and punish criticism against their leadership. and the panel said support given by the e. u to the libyan coast guard, to intercept migrants across the mediterranean sea. that's a violations of human rights. libya has had to governments since 2014, the u. n. lead, seen far and 2020 created hopes for peace with both sides agreeing to hold elections as well. hm. and the baby has been the interim prime minister of the you and recognize government of national unity since 2021. he was supposed to be replaced. all for elections in december that yeah, but the votes never happened and has been postponed indefinitely. tensions escalated between rival governments all to the top broke base parliament appointed

by chicago as the prime minister. ah. or alice take this own, we can now get the thoughts of our guests joining me and it's tumble is cush, who's a political and list. and former senior advisor to the negotiating team of the high council estates, as well as the high council of state in brussels. we have julian ers, who's e e u foreign policy, unless an editor of the french dispatch and is in a stumble as well is and as a good mattie, a founder and director of the civic institute, which is a political think tank in libya, a warm welcome to you all in sala, l by cruz. i'd like to start with you. the report really lays out a terrible situation getting a great deal worse. well, as far as the content is concerned, i don't think many libyans,

or many international observers and human rights activists, are surprised by what's in the report. the new thing is that this comes from a credible source, a lot of work when tuned into it, and it provides a very neat package of facts, but that the e u is empowering some groups in libya that are committing crimes and so on. not only goes immigrants, but also against libyans, especially people with political views. and women does not new. so i'm not really surprised, as julia will come on to the criticism directed at the you in a couple of minutes. but 1st of all, in general terms, this report how serious do you think it is? i mean, i think anything that describes any form of human rights abuses,

incredibly serious in general, whether us cello could be on the you or you are not accusing the, even the member. it's directly if you look at our fundamental values, which of which human rights and human dignity are puzzles, it's various, it's very serious to hear that any funding, any equipment that anything provided by you is going to actually fundies. and it raises questions of where are we in terms of accountability on the support provided to achieve a mission that's not being achieved. and on top of that is being abused and missed directed to cause human suffering. and i don't think i need to exactly on the line that i don't think anybody in the you would be happy to hear. that's the funding being provided by the u as being used hom, libyans or migrants of any kind that it's, it's an orphan deal, right? and of course, we must make clear that the report isn't suggesting to you is committing human rights abuses, but it's pointing out that you funding is aiding and abetting human rights abuses.

so just tell us a little bit more about how that might be happening. i mean, there's a, there's always a risk when you're putting funding outside of the you where there are different regulations or different processes for tracking expenses. and on top of that, when there are weak governmental structures, i mean libya's in a has been a very tough situation. for a while now, and the problem is that when there are weak government structures and weak institutions, which is the fact that a case, it's much harder to actually track where the funding and equipment the material is being sent, where it's being used, how it's being used and what the goal is, because it's very easy to wave one hand on one side and take care of it. what's the other? and it's, it shows that what needs to be done is that the uni stay increases an accountability and perhaps gets more involved in the process is on the grounds. mix

with the funding is being done. however, there should be one quick clarification. on this point, there is that according to pizza, stano at least, is the lead spokesperson for the eoc. some the says the claim of the commission is that the money is not being physically given to partners in libya. it's actually being allocated then ex, utilized by international partners, including the u. m. so we need to go for the entire report of offensive come and look at where the problems are, where the money's going and where the potential where this tragedy is coming from. yeah, i know where do you stand on this? so it's interesting what, what i was talking about there that pete is done at the european commission spokesman, if you just go through what he says, he's refusing these claims. that money is going to finance the business model of the smugglers, or of those who are misusing or missed and mistreating people in libya. he says, the spokesman says it is quite to the country. most of the money goes in order to take care to take care of these very people,

the migrants at how do you assess the whole situation? how do you see you position in all of this regretful to say the least. i think nothing could be further from the truth if you go to the report itself. it talk specifically about members of that a be a coast guard as such as betia, a well known him a smuggler who is napping. busy partially because god formally as part of the form institution. so he's definitely received an institutional funding and we're an institutional material from the e u. m. but the report i should details that it's the relationship between the e on the one hand, the libyan coast guard, and then the traffic networks, the work at the heart and a compromise. the work of the libyan of the libyan coast guard. not only for the last year, but for the last several years and over several governments. i think that's where this report for me at least doesn't even go far enough. and one of the reasons why it doesn't go far enough is that if you look into the very details in the methodology of this report, it says that we for

a fact finding mission that wasn't able to go and access their detention sites and libya wasn't able to access southern libya, which is the point of departure for a lot of a migrant. some refugees who 1st enter into the country. this report wasn't able to even to, to establish the hardest fact on the ground. so it doesn't go far enough. it is only able to assert things that are absolutely nose on paper. and what we absolutely know is that there is indirect. and even at this stage, direct support coming from the you. but in my mind, doesn't call things by his real name. there are still facts that have been left behind. it's a 7 year report, so it starts it's timeline in 2016. it predates this late is government of national unity that mister bush in 2021. and it's actually quite flattering for individuals like kelly for after who is the principal actor that has led many of these will crimes. economy gets off scott free for, for that. the war that he launched between 20142018. that will take part in this major war crowns investigations. and remember that it was the icy prosecutor

general to actually visit triple in the last several months and shook hands with caliber after so the should have been at the very least, a deeper message coming from this fact finding mission report the missions mandate my and this month, so for me not only does it not go far enough it let's individuals get, get off can of scott free as well. seller albert kush. do you think the report goes far enough? know doesn't, you know i was asked yesterday i think something like that. and i said it's got to go into a drawer and nothing is going to happen because this is the same situation. we are in today as been happening for a while in 2017 i was kidnapped. and i was put in a room with no windows, with no sanitation whatsoever, never left the room until we escaped. and all the equipment that we were given, you know, the mattress, the the other stuff there was marked

with the. busy the international organization of migrants and so on. and, and the come out we figure out later on, it was a, a illegal immigrants station. so, so this is known, italy knows where the money goes. and it knows who are these people who these people are. so there is nothing mysterious about, well, you know, that is that government and the government has no situations and it's very hard to know where the money goes. actually knows. it's part of the a you, there is no, you policy, it was libya, france that is doing whatever egypt and, and you want and italy, as long as you stop the emigrants and keep in in place, we don't care. so that's the bottom line, is that the layout for our audience?

if you would, in that case, why it is that the you would be enabling the situation? what is there and go? well, well, remember, everybody remembers the use operation to to stop illegal arms shipments to libya and stephanie williams called that had joke. so this is another joke, this assistance to enter this and so on. that is done by the name of the a you and so on. no, buddy knows what goes on with this money. in some countries the li provides to some units of the government and tripoli. and we know that these units are. busy under the protection of some other groups that are

very unsavory at only knows that the, you know, debt, but they have no policy and libya that's very clear. since 2011 as julia. this is all done with the intention of stemming the flow of migrants into europe. i mean, that's a sad reality is that the so called migrant crisis did have a big impact on how you react to a lot of these things. and also the developmental situation of the e. u means that sadly, it's not as effective, all able to actually do what it's doing a situations. and on top of that, you have the disco internally would state such as hungary, australia, and very often poland to want to have very aggressive positions that block migrants as much as possible. and honestly, i think, i mean, i agree with the of

a panelist that we do need to be doing a lot more to actually find out what on earth is going on all the way down. and d reported to be more robust and until they are and until we has more information on. so we go as far down as we can as deep as we can. unfortunately, the reality is that we're not going to really see a big reaction from social community because you'll have people of the schedule have people your claim in a sense, will have people who claim you know, ignorance in many cases. and the problem is, as it's been said already, does, we need more information? we need more missions, dictating, and what staining and investigating exactly what happens exactly where it's happened is actually what funding has been used and figure out how to stop it, because it's, it's criminal. and it's in many ways, it's a negligent that the people working in libya has allowed this to happen.

that's funding and equipment is being used to come it's what's all very rocky been called the crimes against humanity and crimes against migrants. and it's at this, it's a sub by a product of d increasingly polarized nature of the world that's actually preventing more effective action in these domains. and in these topics. and it's, there's no way to express whole awful. this is to how much we try or actually, and as we talk about accountability and the report, it talks about accountability, especially for the libyan authorities. but what about the last question on the, you know, we'll move on. but what about the european union and what about the international community? what about accountability that i think to this because of the nature of the

european union, it's trying to seem like it's a multi lateral body that functions incomplete harmony. but the reality is that its own member states undermine actions. now, to be very, very specific about this and to be quite blunt. my sense is that given my knowledge and, and i'm sure the other speakers, their knowledge, a previous un panel of expert reports that go into great detail about the role of states in the world of individuals who are, you know, who, who are essentially aiding and abetting and ensuring that the perpetuation of walls of crimes against humanity will crimes. this report is far less in substance and far less in detail to the other report. so it's not a question that other reports were lesser. and this is the kind of the pinnacle this is a lot less a lot lighter and in my view, so my sense is that someone is dragging that pen. and the reason is, is that so it comes on to what julian was saying around. we're having to go further and further deeper with the fact is that the further that you go and the further you investigate, you find that and libya's guys that you're looking into the activities of states

and not just some petty thugs and some tea bit criminals. that have been supported by the e e e, but actually member states and un security council members that have actually been involved in these crimes. now, jillian has rightly pointed out that the, the inter asked me is divided. i mean, certainly when you look at the un security council, russia and u. s, that position is divided, but let's not go. so i back in the past in 2019, both of those states gave implicit and explicit green lights, so can leave after the trumpet, ministration. gave can, for after a green light to commit the war crimes than an investigating and rushes. wagner drip that a detailed in his reports, who continued to maintain their presence on the ground where activating operating and actually conducting many of those war crimes that actually detailed in this report. so whether we live in a divided world in 2023 or a unified world in 20. 19 the very same things happen there. it for sure of being able to call for call these abuses by their name. i have absolutely no faith that

the un security council members themselves or you member states are going to do anything to actually look to call for any kind of action to write those kind of wrongs. because right in those rooms because not any other kind of soul searching to look into what's happening in libya, but it requires that those members, thanks to be honest about their own actions. many of those members they to stop acting on the ground. so that's why i say that as my and i began this by saying that someone is dragging that pen. it hasn't gone far enough because if it went any further, we'd find the names of the member states of the un security council and other individual member states if the either or, or the chip and listen, i've already detail. so for me, this is just typically iceberg the do you think and as it will go further down the line? absolutely not. this is the trend continues in the way that we've been looking at it over the last several years. and libya should be looked at as the kind of example the petri dish, if you may, of where states are experimenting and not just brutal will crimes and crimes

against humanity. but they perfected this that mastered the art of doing it through plausible deniability. you don't have to go there yourself. you can hire some tea, but militant and militia to do your work for you. or you can hire mercenaries, but no one sends full military there. no one sends in the weapons that were used to kill on official planes carrying the that the flags of the rank countries. these, the smuggler city to some, in libya, is a smuggling capital. the smuggling networks that we're talking about are actually used by members of the entire community. so again, they perfected than most of the are opposable deniability. so that when we gets to the critical stage of saying how could this happen and who is responsible, they can put their hands up and said, well, it wasn't as and you have no proof, no definitive proof or direct proof of being able to say it. and that for their support done, i mean it's, it's really, it's that mastering of that kind of art of warfare that has broken the back of this can effect on emissions that it as, as salon mentioned already. it's either going to go into a dru,

or you can pull at last year's version, go blow of the dust and give it to me again because the same individuals that are there that are being detailed as will criminals today. that having the handshake and by the i c. c, prosecutor general shook the man that is responsible for so many of his war crimes . he shook his hand. the you and envoy last week on 1st television said that he would support a candidacy for presidency by an individual that is detailed as being a war criminal this report. so i don't think that we're gonna go any, there's no, nothing positive or come from this. it is drastic to say the least, but calling things by their real name is only the beginning and you have to continue to do that. or it, let's to advocate specifically within libby or itself is a report does talk about how the authorities that had committed a wide range of war crimes and crimes against humanity and appointed sela. and that's what all of you been alluding to that. nothing is gonna change until the, the political situation within libya, does and stabilizes but of course, what, but, but how,

how would the situation stabilize when you have a things that make libya lose faith completely in the, in the, into the, and in the international community. i give you 2 examples. a few days ago we had, we saw a picture of the under secretary of state of the us shaking hands with oliver after oliver, after the panel of experts. this report many reports talk about what he did. he was indicted in the u. s. federal court. not only that, a 3 years ago, the mayor of bengal he was kidnapped and everybody condemned the act. few months later, there was a picture declaring that half hour has decided to release him. nobody knew where it was, nobody talked about it. and now bethaly talked to france $24.00. i think i

saw somebody. and he says, well have there has to be allowed to run for president. so what would the libyan people do? they just lost faith in the international community. and i think right now the deb they made really consider her basically keeping the way the way things are better than the consequences of letting bethaly who's now a. busy backtracked on everything and decided to use what's the so called powers on the ground to initiate elections? the powers on the ground is another name for these people that are in the report is really the point is that nothing will improve until the political situation does . but how do you resolve this political impasse between the 2 sides and

how much responsibility can we keep lovely at the international communities? is an incredibly challenging situation. it is incredibly complex. there is no easy answer as we've been talking about is related to what, what there is no young says true and your call john sally, correct. and there's also a question, and i have had this discussion with several colleagues actually about how there is always this wish in the western world and in the european used to take them walk to role in helping guides states i states and states in trouble for political developments but the issue or even in the case of iran and engaging directly to prevent human rights abuses. but the problem is that the western world has gotten, let's say, to put it nicely skipped ish after the criticisms that directly received sports engagements in iraq and afghanistan. and syria and multiple other states in the

middle east. and this does weigh heavily on the minds of western states. and the issue that we have and the way we sort of try to come to a be a better solution is really engaging with the international community in finding a way of actually supporting political development and political restructuring, if needed. little political strengthening of institutions in order to enable state the need to fix issues that impact their people. but the issue is in libya, you would need to have all parties come to kevin say yes, we agree to have the state come in and help us with these institutions come in and help us develop our institutions and the reality we can't do anything about the consent of whatever government. so organizations are already in the grounds, managing the processes domestically. and while it may be

a case that after the civil war, the needs to be a more intensified state building efforts. the problem is this will needs to come from the states itself and the people ends. i mean is that there and i would need to ask my fed panelist, the other speakers to give their opinion on this? because personally, i'm not sure the that wish or that on v is actually there. okay, well, it's way, way to come out. do you want to come back to the office? i think it depends who you're calling libyan. i certainly wouldn't call the cohort of individuals that have essentially monopolized her the, the label of being libyan for the last decade or much of the last decade. and so i asked whether those libyans are interested in investing in institutions that will allow for a peaceful transfer power. now we've seen this film before. the un has repeatedly since 2015 had its emergency meetings. it's crisis talks. it creates these bodies

called the 5 plus 5, the one plus one, the orange, and the apple. whatever arithmetic you want to go to and it brings 2 sides to the table. those 2 sites to the table, i don't think represents a majority of the 7th. i think intern government of the last decade or the 11th and term government depends which ones you're counting in terms of administrations. but we're certainly now almost getting into double digits at this stage, calling at 2 different sides when it's the same individuals that are going around america, around for the last decade. broaden to question how the un and the international community and the you are looking to resolve these courses. now you have a very simple question. how do we move on from what has been a, a decade, almost of turbulence and the recycling are the same of the same names for a treat, a peaceful transfer, a power and a fresh democratic. busy thought, well, the same individuals that have been around for the last 10 years, they've had the tools to continue this game and the u. n. and the you continue to

give them tools every time they create a road map to the elections, they leave the most critical aspects, libya's constitutional basis and as election laws for the individuals that whole power to day. okay, how can i just can i just gonna jump in there because we're just running out of time. and i said, i do apologize. michelle, i just wanted to pose the question that and us, and just suggested it to you. so how do we move on a, to a peaceful transfer? power going about a minute left? if you could just take a st, the end we, we, we have to change the people that are in power. now, since 2014 day $49.00 governments, they were, they went through to tower sharing agreements and each power sharing agreement. we were promised to create the unity government government of national court government, a unique government and elections, and a referendum on the year under constitutes what happened within a year that the agreement collapsed. federal government were created. and now we

are going back to the same way. and the reason the reason we are continually because some e u members and some of the international community are supporting the people. egypt wants to stay with agular, father hand and have their and the others want to stay with other people and, and that's why we're sitting here. okay. talking about it after 11 years or i will have to leave it there. a difficult, extremely complex situation. thank you. so much to our guests, a seller, albuquerque julian was and us al kemati. thanks so much and thank you for watching . you can see the program again any time by just visiting a website or dessert dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. and you can also join the conversation on twitter or handle is at ha, inside story for me mcclark. and the whole team here is 5. ah,

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