it's a pick up, a former rocco, you could see some heavy rain start to move into more central areas on tuesday. some of that rain as well picking up moving across the likes of tunisia and northern algeria for the wet weather. however, we have to head to that central boundary, got some fierce thunderstorms, rumbling their way across the democratic republic of congo and angola, with thunderstorms in lawanda through to the end of the week. much dryer for the south of this in particular for south africa just a few showers coming into places like s were teeny, but lots of sunshine for cape town. ah, jump into the stream and percent of the population globally is responsible for about 15 percent of carbon emission joined the debate. people have already lost their life. people. how close to that culture people have those conditions. have your say, want to broaden this conversation by bringing more voices into it live on you to

people commenting. i want the whole world to know that jackie are not headed to replicate all this with the power that they have. this stream on al jazeera, russia has assume the presidency of the united nations security council that you all the petition well, wages war, ukraine. so what does this mean for the un come, it's still play the role it's found is hopeful, seeking world. this is inside school. ah another welcome to the program. i'm. so russia has taken over the presidency of the u. n's, most important body, the security council. it's essential on the 1st of april was marked as the world's worst april fools joke by ukraine's foreign minister, given russia's invasion in the past. other countries such as the u. s. and the u. k

. have also presided over the security council while waging war on iraq. for example, the makeup of the council was put together in the aftermath of world war 2 with veto is for all 5 permanent members. but is it fit for today's world? we'll be discussing this and more in a few moments with, i guess. the 1st event, monahan reports on the debate over russia's presidency of the security council. the it for the next month, russia will chair the un security council. the counsels presidency rotates every month. and that gives the holder some influence in shaping. that's agenda through. but some members are objecting to russia, sharing a body dedicated to security as it wages war and ukraine shorter, he's gotten bullshit. yesterday the russian army killed another ukrainian child a 5 month old boy. the parents are wounded, one of the hundreds of artillery attacks to the terrorist states carries out every

day. and at the same time, in russia presides over the un security council. so it is difficult to imagine anything the crimes, the complete bankruptcy of such institutions and of course the ukrainians are pushing for russia to be removed from the council earlier. but even if allies admit that's effectively impossible. unfortunately, russia is a permanent member of the security council and no feasible international legal pathway exists to change that reality. that is what we are living with currently as unpalatable as it may be to see russia presiding over the council. the reality is, this is a largely ceremonial position, rushes presidency, hasn't bolden some critics of the un, vito wielding members like russia in the united states often prevent the counsel from acting time. but there are also been breakthroughs, the un successfully broker to deal in july allowing ukrainian grain to pass through the black sea, un officials, and also been active europe largest nuclear power plant,

which has been caught in the crossfire between russian and ukrainian forces. but both sides are gearing up for a new offensive in ukraine. the war has brought big challenges to the u. n. and many requesting what role can play during the larger skill conflict in europe since world war 2 been smaller him al jazeera. ah. so let's at brian i guess now in moscow we have asked and his love at mister coverage, international relations researcher at the financial university under the government of the russian federation in helsinki. rasmus hindrance, head of international relations at the european center of excellence for countering hybrid threats and over in brussels is steve no longer at chief diplomatic correspondent in europe for the new york times. welcome to all of you as dan is love. if i could start with you in moscow, so let's just get this straight at country in the act of fighting

a war that is killed. tens of thousands of people is now head of an organization that was set up to promote peace and security. it's absurd, isn't it? well, your end was organized to prevent a 3rd world war. so that a big war. everything else is just a question of interpretation. so i think you can play this role in preventing the 3rd world war, everything else. so, you know, america, waste war, russia, waste, worse, many other countries, waste oars, including countries that are considered to be per month member. so the security council and countries just a just part of security council not being permanent members. so i wouldn't say it's absurd. it will be absurd to get russia out of united nations because this new united nations will not be recognized by china, possibly by india. so still it says x is a space for discussion, which is a still a square. we can where we can meet. it was possible to use you and even in the period of cold war, why not use it now? residents, what do you think?

is it right that russia should add the security council? what is prosecuting this war and great? well, i think absurd is, is one a good way to, to describe it because, i mean, we have the country that has been designated an aggressor stage by the u. n. and we have a country whose leader is an accused more criminal. so in those terms it's, it's fair to, to call this situation upset. so if we were in practical terms, what will russia bring to the table in its role is presiding the un security council for this time? yeah, sure. so, i mean, of course it's mostly a symbolic position, but it's, of course, it has, the presidency has agenda setting power. it has a narrative power, and i think that's where russia will try to, to be most active, to,

to bring their version of the narrative to the, to the forefront, to, to spread this information as, as they did in february 2022. when they last held the presidency now, okay, we'll explore that line in a little bit. but stephen, 1st of all, at, of course there is precedent. as i mentioned in the introduction, the united states, a chair at the time of. busy it's invasion of iraq, so really nobody can complain about who takes of the geno. well, i agree with that. i mean, these are just the rules. this is life missus guerra b u and works. the un was set up ethically to give special privileges to the big powers that, sir, that one, the 2nd world war, one can ask quite rightly are those still the right powers to sit on the security council. so the security council still have a veto, should germany be part of the security council in the separate cetera. but those

are reforms. i just think, you know, this is the un, we've had very odd cases in the past. for instance, we've had the syrian regimes sitting on the un human rights council, which i find as a fence sues as has almost anything else. so, you know, i'm not terribly upset by it. i know why the trains are set by it and i know why people are making, you know, kind of rhetorical, hey, out of it. but i do believe the un exists to have conversations. it does have its rules and i think it's just the way it is. we can not like it. we don't like it, it really doesn't matter. it's going to take a lot to change it and it won't be changed by tomorrow. i steven, can russia use? it's chairmanship to it's an advantage is residences just alluding to

well, i'm sure i can certainly try. i know if it wants to set a debate on arms control for instance, which it has its own point of view. it has its own narrative, but it may have other debates, but it wants, but the fact is, i think it won't change the world's understanding of what's happening inside the crime. i mean, they're already some countries in the world like china who are embarrassed by a world. so permanent members who keep saying they believe in territorial integrity and yet do not condemn russians invasion of sovereign ukraine. so there is lots of contradictions to go around. that seems to me, incentives of is that enables russia to present itself as a legitimate, well pled to its people back. i am rushing back at home well, of course,

refreshing the permanence member or security council or, and i did nation, which is much more important than international criminal court. so let's say it's not recognized by many other countries, including us and china. security council is much more important than let's say general assembly of it's mostly make just rhetorical declaration for nothing more. so definitely it is important for insurance ledger to miss your freshman power inside russia. it is important for external legitimacy. russia is recognized by china by india. i mean a rabbit countries white global false i would say. so there's using with power or the world and the way ukraine doesn't change it if necessary to understand and to and to meet that it's necessary to have a deal with russia anyway, even after this military conflict is somehow result studies love. i just wanted to ask you, as well as what you made, what dmitri polanski said, who's the rushes deputy pendant representative at the u. n. and denying that this,

this concept that russia was becoming a pariah, the united nations. and he said that i think it is a west that is isolated, but not us, not russia, in the general assembly. it's going a bit far, isn't it? well, i wouldn't say the west is isolated, west is important part of the world in itself and many other countries outside of the west have trade relations and political relations and diplomatic relations and migration relations with the west. so i wouldn't say that west as isolated, but russia is not affiliated as well. and russia is not a state. you know, just recently a chinese leader was it says, must go with a free day wizard. how can you call it from any country parish stage? when instituted by leader of the 2nd power in the world. so let's say the thrust and western countries both have their own narrative, then not isolated in the world, but they are to a large extent, isolated from each other. it's true to say that russia is too large, extensive,

isolated from the west, not on the global scale. let's admitted residents. i just want to back up a little bit better. understand the role of a security council department members of the council, u. k. u. s. france, china and russia, tell us more about the establishment of the security council, why it was set up and why those nations, in particular, while he was obviously in the aftermath of the 2nd world war and with the 5 countries gathered the most powerful countries to become the permanent members, of course, russia wasn't originally part of that, but pretty soon also then became a part of it. but i mean, as well. so already explained, there has been an attempt to reformed security council almost ever since. it was established in the 1st place. but reform is really difficult, so we're still stuck with this current format. and because basically any change

in that system would require that all the permanent members would agree to the reform, which is why we haven't seen, haven't seen that reform happening effectively. and in conflicts like this one, rushes aggression against ukraine. we see that the, the security council immediately becomes paralyzed because it's a permanent member of the security council that is the aggressor nation. it's steven, there are those you who question whether even russia holds illegitimate seats should hold us legitimacy on the un security council, given that when it was established, it was a soviet union and not russia ever had that seat. well, i mean, russia is recognized as the legal inheritor of the soviet union's seat. so i don't think that's really in, in question, frankly. and also it is where saying, i mean, the united states recognize as russia has a great power,

that's not the issue. and the united states recognizes russia as position on the security council. the question is rather a different one, which is the paralysis rasmus just described of a un security council which has veto power over everything including anything to do with it. i mean, normally in a judicial system, a party that's involved would require use itself from a decision, but instead needs, any member of the sturdy council can block anything that it, that it actually likes. and frankly, if russia didn't block something, china might block for it. so it is a kind of paralysis, it's just a kind of moral conundrum. or perhaps it's simply, you know, international relations and international law. to me have

very little to do with one another. i know we want to make it so. but in my experience, covering conflict in general, international law isn't the deciding factor. what's deciding factor is lots of things including power. you should ask, you know, mr. newton, why he went into ukraine. i think he had every understanding that he was breaking international law, breaking and charter. it simply didn't matter to him. it's dennis of it. what do you think about this, this concept that the paralysis that's created by any single member be able to, to veto any full resolution? it just means that it's toothless, that there is never any progress. well, i think it to the so by design, it was designed this way to satisfy the demands of winning power of the 2nd world

war. you can, united nations security council cannot make your move against united states against russia, against france, against great britain, and against china. so it's a so by design let's, let's reason better to have it than have nothing is it is a way to, at least to resume, i mean, to deal with some differences to some different political positions. this is the way to prevent the 3rd world war, and from this perspective, security council was more or less successful. and from the point you feel being a global policeman. well, of course, it doesn't talk this way just because the different countries was different agendas, probably found people in 90th, in the beginning of the 21st century. they saw the security council will be global policeman. but, you know, russia has its own position. china has its own position and you can not imagine that kind of a was a global government or global policeman. in a way security council exists without support of russia and china will be not

working. and what about the engine? what about brazil? by the way, it was russian idea. so probably includes these countries and this country sorta could have had a long history of debates with russia, which is possible to include in the, in brazil into the security council. and i wouldn't say that it will be easier for western countries to suppress. i don't know russian political regime if india and brazil joined security council, i suppose it will be even more difficult for, for the west in the world. in this case. do you think that is the case resume if you broaden the membership that is going to create more difficulty and more intractability going forward? i think the question of the reform is, is a bit more nuanced. i mean, there is the question of broadening the participation in the, in the security council, then there's another question is what to do with the veto power? then there's a question of what is the, the role of the general assembly and,

and should that be also increased a little bit. so i think it's a little bit more complicated question, but i mean it's, yeah, it's fair to say that the, this current, the set up is not really reflecting the reality of the situation at the moment. but i also think that what that, what stephen was saying that the normally in this kind of situation salon would expect the country that he's involved in a conflict. and in fact, the, the aggressor to recuse itself on from those considerations around that conflict. but of course, that that hasn't happened yet and resumes that this, this concept of vito part with it. just an error of judgement at the establishment of the insecurity counseling. is it something that, you know, looking back at the found as if they were able to, might wish they'd done differently? well, i mean, yes, in a way, yes. and that's why the, the whole debate around the reform has, has been going around for,

for so many decades. but of course it was reflecting the realities of the moments. and yeah, let's just say that the, the great powers, no matter how we define a great power, they are really reluctant to, to relinquish any else any of that power. and this is, this is just the reality we're living with. we've touched on that briefly, but let's explore more now about the insecurity counselors role, especially in ukraine and steve. and as far as the conflict is concerned, what has the united nations managed to achieve? first of all, well, i think gutierrez is the secretary general has felt kind of on the side he's been finding, trying to find ways to in search the un into the conflict. which is difficult for all the reasons that, that we've just been talking about. but, but the un has been very much trying to be an agent for the countries

that need ukrainian grain and, and russian fertilizer. so, working with turkey, the united nations was instrumental in, in creating a system whereby ukraine could export some of some of its grain. i think the u. n. is international, atomic energy agency has been very, very important in trying to raise the world's consciousness. not just and also the russian military consciousness of the dangers involved in the war around some of ukraine's biggest atomic energy plants originally built under the soviet union of course. but they are unit, as is parisha in particular, has warfare all around it. it has had electricity cuts it's, it's been very,

very dangerous. and i think russell grossi and his team have done a very, very good job in trying to keep it safe. so i think that's important. and i think we should not underestimate the importance of organizations like u. n. h, c, r, and the world food program and unicef in just trying to help the poor who are most affected by this war. they, they're not combatants, but they are also the victims in status love. those are the positives that stephen has just itemize, in terms of whether you and has failed. as far as this conflict is concerned, to know what your perspective is on that well, i agree with that there are possible few and the important for everyone, for example, foot program is important for cultural social issues are important for everyone.

and once again, i want to underline that you are still living, we were able to survive the period of cold war and you and played a role that which was the immediate place for discussions for resolving conflicts. yes, not all the conflicts or prevented the worse. all over the world, yet not korea, in africa, many other puzzles a lot of again, it's done. but there was no shooting war between so rich union and not just space for america, between storage block war, so fact and nato. and this is one of the results that can be call to great success of united nations organization. so what about, what about this project on this? it could be used later particular today. well, i think of a great deal is what can you and can do to deal with about search allies? there's international atomic energy agency is also very important to hear. i will

not be surprised to, for in the and diplomatic relations between russia and ukraine could be restored with the help of you and why not. so will i still do believe that you have something important to our residents? it certainly failed to you and certainly failed to break or any kind of piece as of this moment. but i guess when the end, as when the end of the conflict happens, you and it's going to play a key role in how things progress. yeah, it's possible that the that the you and will, will play a role there and to get the overall legitimacy of any deal. it would be important to have you involved. i think in practice there might be some smaller groups of countries that might try to act as mediators and, and go between sun and may be a good ball from there. but of course, in any of these plans, the most crucial thing is to to see what the, what ukraine is, is ready and willing to do and, and, and hopefully hopefully then,

then a solution could be worked out. stephen, do you think the security council could have played a bigger role in trying to achieve some kind of resolution to the conflict as of now? oh, i wish that were true. it might have been true before february 24th of last year when russian troops cross the border. once that happened, i think we're stuck. but it is possible that you and could have done more, i think, to try to resolve the conflicts. hard to say, because ever since the, my dawn in 2014 and the annexation of annexation of crimea, russia has, has basically violated the un charter and, and violated ukrainian sovereignty, which russia itself had recognized as early as,

as 1991. so, you know, in the end, you can only solve conflicts when 2 sides want to solve conflicts or when they're exhausted. and i, i think that's a moment that has not yet come and probably hadn't come before much after 2014. so i don't really blame the u. n for this, but i do think there was a lot of complacency about ukraine and russia after 2014, when many, many thousands of people were dying in the don by us in bass, grant, undeclared war and started live a. ultimately, the ball is in president putin's court isn't it to find resolution to this conflict? while i have put in is one of the most important places or world now including ukrainian,

ukrainian crisis. but she is not alone here. i think he waits for some moves from the west of the world as well. he wants some kind of distinguished ations that can and this military conflict too. but in the situation when the russia can say that it got something, for example, they've got this land car adults or crimea secures, i think it could be enough for which to explain to his own population she, she was successful, but it is necessary to recognize it from the western world as well. if let's say mr . biden said that he's ready for this kind of deal. in this case, i think conflict could and residents. and finally, if we just come to you in terms of we've been talking about the reformation of the un security council. certainly, president biden has said that they support increasing the number by permanent nonpayment representatives of the council. but as we've discussed, actually making that happen is difficult. can you say, i mean if we spend for say, 10 years in a decades times it, is it going to look as it does now because it,

as time goes on, it looks more and more. okay. yeah, i agree. i think it's one can't be too optimistic at this point in the long term. we don't know. suddenly there might be some, some new avenues opening for actually making the report perform happen. but i think right now is really not the time even to be focusing too much on that reform. there are other pressing pressing matters at hand. but if i could just go back also to the previous points made and whether the un failed to, to prevent the invasion. i mean, i wouldn't blame the u. n. but, but it was in a way, unfortunate that russia had the rotating presidency of the security council a year ago, back in february 22. and had used that opportunity to talk about its peaceful intentions. which basically said to do a road to support for,

for the other countries to, to have a coalition to prevent that invasion. so it was an unfortunate timing in that sense and allowed a possibility for russia to, to, to spread that kind of meets or, or this information i was present that going to have to leave it to, i guess. thank you very much indeed to son is love me to coach to resume syndrome. and to steven lang, thanks for joining us. and thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by visiting our website out there dot com for further discussion. just go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. and you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is act a j inside stored for me in the cloud hole team here with

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