on our next batch of what weather moves into the islands of ireland and britain. but if snow is to come for stock home, couple centimeters here, nothing major. and after africa we go that wind off the mediterranean, his lower temperatures and elders in tune as few showers as wall. and we got something trying to spin up into southwestern morocco will keep tabs on that. no weather alerts to speak up for south africa. those showers push away from southern most and be but still is southerly wind. so we've got a top temperature of 28 degrees in my put so on wednesday. that's it. that's all we'll see again soon. take care. ah. it's a $1000000000.00 money known drink operation. the coal mafia is bigger than the company with financial institutions, regulators and governments complicit with. right, right now, in a 4 part series al jazeera is investigative unit because under cover in southern africa

this week and filled 90 percent of the government once the following, it's perfectly brandon good. part 3, on average is era. supporters of journalists on say he should be released in the name of media. freedom is in a london prison facing extradition into united states on espionage charges. washington says you should be prosecuted. so what does the future hold for the weak helix funder? this is inside story. ah . hello and welcome to the program. i'm rob matheson australian citizen. gillian assange remains in belmont prison in london is appealing against extradition to the u. s. to face charges of espionage and computer hacking, civil liberties, lawyers and support as want him released. they say prosecuting him is an attack on

media freedom. a founded the whistle blowing website wiki makes it publish the biggest ever tranche of u. s. diplomatic cables and military files that reveal the u. s. involvement in atrocities in the iraq war and the inner thinking within washington and western governments across a host of issues. publication was sometimes deeply embarrassing documents never intended to be made. public revealed private positions contradicting the official line. a sanchez opponents say he's bravely violated state secrets and should face justice. in a moment, we're going to be discussing all of us with our guests. but 1st fenton mulligan as more on the case of julian songs. come on. this video was released by julia sanchez wiki leak organization in 2010 classified us military video shows a helicopter gunship attack on a crowd of people in baghdad. at least 12 rockies were shot dead, including

a royal photographer at driver. us military said it was engaging arm groups, a claim disputed to the day if those killings were law for under the rules of engagement when the rules of engagement are wrong. deeply wrong, clara was revelations like this to put a song in the spot life that made him powerful enemies in washington, and it was shortly after that his legal troubles began. it is common ground between in 2010. we just, prosecutors opened a rape and sexual assault case against him, and he had himself in to police in london, prosecutor, he was released on bail in 2012, facing eminent extradition, sweden. he took refuge in the ecuadorian embassy. he fear that if he was sent to the country authorities, there would expedite him to the u. s. surrounded by british police wanting to arrest them. your main can find in the embassy for the next 7 years. the charges in sweden were later dropped, but he was to face a much more serious problem. the us now, so to have

a song extradited on charges of espionage. in 2019 ecuador declined to continue sheltering him. please dragged him from the embassy. it was jail for breaking his bail conditions. the u. s. served expedition papers while he was behind bars has been a legal battle since the british government approved his expedition. but he's appealing a sanchez accused of leaking hundreds of thousands, a document charge that could land them in jail for 175 years. the face of the wiki leaks founder remains in the balance to some he's a hero, free speech and journalism deserving to be protected under law to others. he's committed, criminal act, and must face the consequences of his actions. been to madeline al jazeera ah offer more on this. i'm joined by our guests now in london. we have rebecca vincent, she's director of operations on campaigns,

reporters without borders. rebecca under team. we're scheduled to meet julian sandra belmont president on tuesday morning. but the prison st off reversed the decision and bought them from visiting. finally arrived in washington dc as bruce fine former us associate deputy attorney general. an international lawyer were also joined in london by jeffrey robinson. casey's human human rights barrister, on founder of doughty steep chambers. jeffrey has been a former legal advisor to julian songs. i warm welcome to you all. rebecca, i want to start with you talk us through what happened when you went to see jolina? sounds well report us about borders had negotiated access to visit him in bell march today. this actually took months to get vetted by the prison to receive a confirmed visit time for this morning. we followed all of the relevant procedures and rules. we arrived early with all of our documents, but were then told that there had been a last minute decision that we would not be allowed in. this was attributed to the prison governor. we were told that they had received intelligence that we were journalists and therefore would not be allowed. and now i want to make it really

clear reporters without borders. defense journalists, some of my colleagues have a journalistic background, but we are in n g o. we work on cases like this as an enjo, and our prison visit was as an audio not journalistic in any way. the governor refused to speak to us about it, and we could not immediately rectify the situation, so were deeply disappointed. and meanwhile, julian songs remains quite isolated in belmar prison, where he's been for nearly 4 years. there must have been speculation amongst you and your colleagues about why the governor was concerned about you going. and what do you think the governor was worried about that you might do as, as he put it journalists, when you were in there? well, the decision was completely absurd because of course we would follow prison rules as we have to. but this is the latest in a long line of barriers to many aspects of our work on the case. for example, we have monitored the entire extradition proceedings in court, but we have faith barriers on each stage. frankly, nothing is normal about this case. we have every point that we've encountered the u

. k. authorities in particular, there have been problems. it has made our jobs extremely difficult. we are press freedom defenders. julian assault is now perhaps the most well known political prisoner in the world. he has a right to receive visitors, we have legitimacy as a press freedom and you to visit him. we continue our campaign regardless, but frankly, the decision again is ludicrous arbitrary and we call again on the prison to reverse this decision to us and to visit him. what's your understanding of gillian songs is house and the conditions in which he's being kept. we've been deeply concerned about his well being throughout his period of imprisonment. bell marsh again, next week it will be 4 years, so that's a long time to be held in a prison alongside violent criminals. this is a man who has been convicted of no crime. he is being held only on romance, the extradition proceedings continue against him. we know that he suffers from severe mental health issues. we heard extensive evidence about this in court,

including a risk of suicide. and he's had a number of physical elements in prison as well, including at one point many stroke in prison that happened during the apple it hearing in his case. there was also a lot of covert on his so and resulted or on hit in his block at the marsh prison rather. and that resulted at times in him being held almost in conditions of solitary confinement in his own soul in the prison. during a 2 year period, he was allowed any visitors at all, which further exacerbates his, his mental health condition. so things are not good. and one of the reasons we wanted to visit him was to be able to assess how he was and what conditions he's being captain. jeffrey, your son just father john shipped and has repeatedly said this is a political case and therefore it needs a political solution. rather than a legal one, how accurate is that? do you think this a real by the government is not merely i'll grape as soon my new week's law. once

upon a time i met about 20 years ago, i noticed were not allowed to visit the prison. then that case was taken to the european court of human rights and the policy k. so if you have an agreement with the prison i, it was unlawful that the government governor to intervene at the last moment and just stop. i mean, the person should be disciplined and you should take an action against him, but it is clearly breaker. so to time the foreign men is complaining about the treatment of evan cache. the american journalist, whose be now but crudely arrested in the prison, in russia, to fight in agreement with the well known name may be reporters or not to represent which has been agreed, has suddenly at the last moment,

but only courteous lee about i would add. ready unlawfully being stopped. so i think that's something that you should give some court to taking action as far as doing a new san juice concert. and there is a match is very serious matter because it really waiting for 6 months for the court of the people to decide whether to approve his appeal on the to issue is that we're not dale quick or namely the issue of the way they use extradition. to america is by virtue of. ready the rule against expediting people for political reasons. and secondly, whether it's bod, because it's an incursion on freedom of speech and the article of the

european creek. now, i've never known a case to take so long to get a decision from the court of appeal. but he does quote, do you know some kind of limber, which you should never be? because there is strong argument for those 2 homes. and so they should go ahead. then there's a question of appeal to the supreme court. and then liz, the question of the 5 legs, the supreme court doesn't agree to the european human rights. and even if he goes to america, who really years before they decide whether the post amendment from his prosecution would bring many people's really trump lawyers to say the 1st amendment doesn't apply to foreign as i

was or completely good unless it's a controversial matter. ready whether indeed the evidence that he's really is being spied on, which was the case. so we'll be in the daniel elves, prosecution leaking, the pentagon papers. we will stock his case where he's looking at 5 years incarceration in march with suspected terrorists. and that is the way, recent in america, we're treating someone who is in prison because essentially he published a crew in the nation as somebody who has advised julian songs in the past. his father, as i mentioned before, his father has repeatedly said, this is a political case and needs a political solution, not a legal one, given what you've said, given the fact that songs is facing what appears to be an in channel period in the

legal process, nor even in incarceration in terms of having been found guilty for for doing something. how accurate would you say it is that this needs a political solution and illegal one to some degree irrelevant. it could have won this year. ready because there has been a c, j in mr. saunders home country straight. there is a new prime minister mr. albany easy. who. ready said in the us the, this is gone on to law that is recently as december. and there are ways in which cream is ministration. got people out of guantanamo there was a man called fix who was in good time for a long time and a lot of anger in australia and. ready the prime minister bank negotiation an

arrangement whereby they created to a lesser charge, got smacked on the wasting, came back to craig, and i see that they have be some discussions to the say which should be held up by the pentagon. now that may be who stole this year, or i remember when i 1st for the spruce on about 13 years ago, i discussed the case with the crate and who was very high up in the obama administration, which didn't want to take action against him because they thought they'd have to take action against the new york times, which of the southern syria, my friend said, look, we don't want him to gone down the page you added normally fits way. so i think that may be an internal con,

green barrier as part of the bi association. we know there's a conflict at the moment where the pentagon will allow evidence that they have about war crimes to be put in the hands of let me in there because i want you to very interesting point which i want to. i want to put to bruce fine and all the, all the legal solution to this bruce, let me bring you in there. as jeff was mentioning, the obama administration decided it wasn't going to prosecute because was going to, was essentially caught between wanting to be seen to hold press freedoms on finding a way to prosecute the case. how much enthusiasm is there in the, by the ministration for pursuing this in your assessment? i think none, but that doesn't mean that they won't continue to have the extradition treaty issue in play, or throughout 2024. you got to remember at present in the united states,

everything is focused on the next presidential election, and biden is already calculating. all right. you know, if i give up pardon to julian if i drop the expedition, how is that going to play out with my republican opponent? in addition, we know the intelligence community despises julian. essence. i at one time represented. it's no one's father, but i can tell you is, julian is a little bit like it's no, they want to try to make an example of him. so nobody else will ever do this again . even if it means dropping a nuclear bomb on a fleet. because one of the things that was clear with regard to both mister snowdon, mister savage, was that the information conveyed was truthful. that's what made it hard. and what's important in free speech is not that everyone speaks that, that everything we're saying shall be set. so in the same way in which it's known still remains under indictment and he sits there. he is obviously in russia,

we don't have an extradition treaty with russia. there's no enthusiasm to get them back, but he's just going to stay there. i would be stun if before the presidential election 2024. there's any movement whatsoever to a so called a political solution. but as a practical matter, yeah, if mr. biden wanted to end this overnight. he has authority to override the pentagon, the n s a or anybody else. they're all subordinate to him. we have civilian supremacy over the military. but mr. biden is a political animal, and the democrats are preoccupied. about 2024, they're terrified that trump perhaps could back into the white house and they do not view any kind of leniency towards julian aside as being an issue. they want to run on in 2024. so that's where i see things are politically, i don't think it's going to happen. i do think that even if he is expedited, there is a very strong free speech argument. after all, are free speech protects persons not in a particular citizens,

and that to disclose truthful information, especially those that disclose government misconduct is absolutely protected by the 1st amendment. an issue that was raised in the daniel ellsberg prosecution, but never got at judy kate, it because government misconduct derailed the case before it got to a verdict. ah, and i certainly think that julian would not have difficulty attracting very, very gifted legal talent to defend him under the 1st amendment. which i think would be a wonderful gift to the american people. we need more sunshine on government, not less. rebecca chelsea money sold much of the material. a wiki likes eventually publish she. she was in the u. s. military at the time. she has hot her sentence commuted by president bark obama. back in 2017 jillian songs just published the information and yet he's now facing in prison. he's fighting extradition as we were hearing earlier on. this could go for

a very long period of time. what are the ramifications in your assessment of the ways that both of them have been treated? i mean, the implications of this for journalism can certainly not be overstated. so jolena sanchez in a different role to chelsea manning and in a different role to ad snowden and other cases reference because he is the publisher. one reason this case is so dangerous is that he would be the 1st publisher prosecuted under the espionage act, which lacks the public interest defense. if this precedent is sat, this could be applied to any publisher, any journalists, or any source, and any part of the world. because remember, or julian, the font is not american, he has no ties to the u. s. heathen australian national. the fact that the u. s. can go after somebody in this way already has no doubt, had a chilling effect on national security reporting around the world. we will never know what stories have not been told because what of what this man has gone through already over the past 12 years. but if they are successful in bringing him to the united states in prosecuting him there, he could face up to

a 175 years in prison simply for publishing information in the public interest. so we believe that this case matters deeply for journalism for press freedom around the world. we are alarmed by the implications that could happen. so when we talk about this changing the future of journalism, really it is not an exaggeration. jeffrey robertson, if this wasn't the us who was asking for julian a sorry to be deported, but we substituted china or russia. what do you think the reaction would be? well, the reaction will depend on the country, but speak, and of course, to preach. try your russia. the answer would be no. with america, the answer is always yes. and that is a reflection of this particular government. if we had being on the mr. coleman, or maybe even it might be lead to the court, but the government always bending over backwards. sometimes the court to

be then that is when you get real justice. in this case it's the 1st john, very impression. but he said this again shouldn't go to merican because it was in danger of being dealt with. ready bad in the super max prison system as he would as an to stick man a. ready would be likely to commit suicide. now, the court of appeals traditionally accepted american undertaking this and so we wait for the 2 other issue. this is my american colleague who said very free speech should be a political expedition exception to be decided out. of course, the b a leaves taking them unconscionably,

a long time about deciding whether to hear that case and then there are all the other cases down the line. but i think it must be say that one of the factors that helps count against jews in south america is the fact that we're but surely now war with russia true, or we have russia where is killing children and is indicted. came back to, i mean, it won't work happening to on the mental breach of international law, the crime of aggression. and so that does change things or listen because the allegation, ah, but subsequent or not actually this case was subsequently, he was reading low. it's not clear that he knew it from some russian hackers,

but in fact, the problem for america is the d makes and nonsense. so the claim to freeze it is one of the finest claims he could make it does. it has been the leader in a biking for free speech and it shows it so to be created by its refusal. ok, i want to find bruce, i'm going to make a point here. bruce, go ahead. yeah, i want to underscore, i think the leverage that the united states has over great britain in this context is that they're both members of 5 eyes. and i can guarantee you of julian assange. it would not be extradited at least to the best that the british could do. the intelligent sharing would end and i can guarantee with the intelligence people at m, i 5 m i 6 are talking the f b i and cia and director of national intelligence. and they all despise julian. and

that's why there's no way given that political context that the british would ever resist extradition a bruce and i want to ask you back in october, i think it was, it was a us attorney general bruce, a dramatic garland had announced expanded protections for journalists to know how much, if a toll would that influence how the u. s. handles any eventual prosecution of julian songs? well, i don't think that particular announcement has any impact on you. in essence, it simply stated that we would not be targeting, you know, journalist, you know, unless we had exhausted all other possibilities to try to get access to information . even though our u. s. supreme court is held that there is no constitutional law journalistic privilege to keep the confidentiality of sources outside their jury of the grav. outside of a grand jury, or, or a prosecution's case, ah,

we have at the justice department. it was there when i was there. i created by regulation, some limits on the circumstances which we would see confidential sources of journalists. but julia sanchez is entirely different case because they're charging the journalist not with guy concealing a confidential source, but having engaged in a crime itself. although it's true that julian, unlike it's known, or daniel ellsberg as being a prosecutor in this capacity, as a publisher. ah, there is no reason in the free speech to think that the individuals have any less rights to communicate than news organizations. ah, they're all in equal part where it comes to speaking. and the reason is that i underscore free speech is intended to lead to an educated public, doesn't matter. the identity of the speaker, what's important is what is being said. and if what is being said is important to

understand and check government abuses, whether it's an individual, a unicorn, oppress a music ban is protected by free speech. the rebecca and we were talking about the fact earlier of rescheduling the saunders in australian citizen. and i was referred to that to the, the new prime minister of australia. we seem to be more enthusiastic about pursuing this. but the foreign minister on the last couple of days was seemed to be rolling back from that very slightly. is there an indication that australia, perhaps, is not as enthusiastic about getting involved in this case, and putting pressure on the u. s. as perhaps a sondra support as my whole welfare number here is, australia certainly did not do as much as i think anybody would hope in the situation that our own governments would defend us if we are accused, especially for political reasons like this. but we've been encouraged by reports that the administration of prime minister albany has been raising this case diplomatically. and so we've reached out. we've attempted to engage as reporters

without borders. we wrote a letter to prime minister albany is ahead of his recent visit to the united states where he met with president biden. and we understand that president biden is expected to visit australia in may for the quad leaders summit. we are encouraging the leaders to discuss this case on the side because a diplomatic solution with australia could be a way out of this for all parties involved. and in fact, we have information not to day. perhaps as we're speaking, the new australian high commissioner to london is in fact, getting into bellmarks prison to visit julie this launched. this will be their 1st visit. we really welcome not he needs support from his government and we encourage australia to do everything in their power to find the diplomatic solution ought to protect him to allow him to find a way out of this. and if for him and his family, if they desire to return to australia, to live safely and freely there, because they have this rights. rebecca, just very briefly because we're into the last 30 seconds of the program. i'm afraid . what is your next move a in terms of trying to get to see us ours again,

just very briefly, if you could, well, we can take, we continue our campaign regardless. we will keep trying to visit him in prison. we've made a formal complaint i'll consider on mister robinson's a suggestion about possibly taking legal action will continue to monitor any further court proceedings and fight everywhere we can for the release of julian college because it matters so much for journalism around the world. rebecca, thank you bruce. i'm afraid we have very little time, but i do want to hear from both you and jeff bruce, what have you to say? well, the last point i wanted to make about australia, again, we've got the national security leverage. they sale of the submarines with the, the british billions of dollars of the marine bases that are upgraded in order to oppose china. australia like britain is part of 5 ice. there's no way given those national security entanglements that australia would do anything that united states says no to. so i think that's just a lost cause. i hate to say it because i believe in the circumstances. it's either a court when or we're going to lose jefferson just

a final word from you astray. it does have a bit of clout, thanks to. ready and you must remember that australia has a great today for all journalists who have embarrassed security services. getting right back to the post rule, where the calamities were exposed by journalists called key mo, talk you was the root group. jeffrey, thank you very much. indeed, i want to say thank you to all our gas, rebecca vincent, bruce fine, and jeffrey robertson. thank you to you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. and you can also join the conversation. and twitter handle is a inside story from the law office and on the whole team get bye for now. ah

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