continues to effect tanzania as well as uganda. we could see some flooding from the heavy rains for the south of this much. why a picture with some rain trickling into cape town, friday to saturday. ah. in 543, he wanted a front takes on the big issues. this isn't a one off. he's talking about a systemic issue here. black gloves don't really matter in the police. world unflinching questions is war with lawanda, imminent rigorous debate. people who are dying because of lack of medical treatment, challenging conventional wisdom. the fact that people are starting to get angry about this is in itself a sign of program. join me, mark him on hill for one out 0. engaging with china, frances president and the head of the european commission, both in beijing hoping teaching ping can help and the war ukraine with china are

accused of siding with russia. what can it offer? this is inside story. ah hello, welcome to the program. i'm nick clark. so you leaders are in china for a high stakes meeting with president seizing pink french president to manon. macros says he's counting on china to bring russia to its senses. and in the war in ukraine, macaroni is joined by european commission president, her stuff on the line. she says, china's position on the war will determine its future relations with the blog. so can europe change beijing's mind on the war in ukraine? and how is trade shaping relations between the 2 size? i need to discuss up ahead. the 1st row mcbride sets about for us,

french president emanuel macro being given the owner of a state visit. welcome by his chinese counterpart, she's in pain. one of your most influential leaders coming to ask china to exert its influence on russia to bring an end to europe, worst conflict since world war 2. just to show who will keep you. i know that i can count on you to bring russia to reason and every one to the negotiating table. this was she jane paying visiting russian president vladimir putin last month since moscow's invasion. more than a year ago. jane had stayed neutral and proposed a roadmap for a cease fire and peace talks. most western leaders, including macros, have criticized the plan. but the french president has been one of the more conciliatory voices among nato heads of state. 2 weeks before russia's invasion, he met president vladimir putin in the kremlin,

under spoken to him several times by phone over the past year. many and now watching to see if macaroni and she together can provide a breakthrough, where others have failed goals on ginger channels. china insists on a peaceful resolution and as willing to work with france to maintain the rationality of the international community and avoid actions that could further escalate the crisis or let things get out of control. in a show of european unity, macro is accompanied by european commission president ursula on de leon who has taken a much tougher line on china's failure to condemn the russian invasion. the europeans are looking at the very least to dissuade china from supplying russia with arms. we also count on china not to provide any military equipment directly or indirectly to russia, because we all know arming the aggressor would be against international law. and it

would significantly harm our relationship, surely the signing of lucrative tre deals on this trip is seen as beijing's attempt to maintain good european relations, even as ties with the us sour hope. i hope china will tell press the micro on the one hand and then tow mellum of on the a on the other hand that it is absolutely impulse want to have a european perspective which may or may not be exactly identical to that of the united states. chinese and european leaders hoping, traditionally strong trade links can lead to a diplomatic breakthrough. robert pride al jazeera. ah. alright, let's take this on. i'm joined by our guests and some hello in from says jack relo . he's a senior research fellow at the global policy institute, which is an independent think tank in washington,

d. c. in the us calling cottle the deputy director of the global china hub at the atlantic council. and in beijing and china and who's a senior research fellow at the center for china and globalization. welcome to all of our gas, says jack, if i could start with you in france, why? why does jewel pronged approach do they can president macro and bonded line on this combined visit to show that france is part of europe and that nicole knows that china prefers to have been a to rural relationship. relations with other countries like was the case where shows when too busy and before with chime cor very often join meeting. but mccoy's insisted on showing that france, yes, isn't it in country, but it's part of the european union. and that when dealing with china,

with 1500000000 people is better to d form a basis of representing the european union. it was 450000000 people that a country like france with 17 young people. so therefore, he insisted on bringing it up on the lion as 5 years ago, when a shooting thing made a state visit to france, invited marco and the president of your commission to take part in the discussions . so it's very important for my call with specially is very insistent on i think the fact that your role as a strategy to me as best as interest and values which are not disarray, doors of allies such as america, to show europe as a political identity and france, as always, always promoted the id of political european. you will come to the u. s. and

that was colleen, but 1st and a mark in beijing for the president using paying the optics pretty good on nature of the most powerful people in europe. coming to him like that 20 well, i think certainly china recognizes and presidency recognizes that china has important contributions to make on the global stage. whether that's in europe, whether that's in the middle east, with the recent reproach. mom between iran and saudi arabia and other parts of the world as well. so certainly i think it's no surprise that we're seeing these visits and more to come. i'd leave the pedro sanchez from spain will be visiting china shortly as well. and colleen europe's kind of stuck in the middle between china and the united states, to what degree is the u. s. wanting this conversation between

europe and china. i think the united states would like to see an action from china on, on ukraine that, that would bring us closer to the resolution. and that, you know, if there is an ability for your leaders to help gain traction, urge china on this. i think there is, this is, i'm here and probably in parts of europe on whether that's actually possible or whether this visit just a she, diplomatic, when i'm looking like he's playing the grand statement hosting. i'm european leader, but not really, but on the spot to make any movements towards toward the resolution. and i think there's, there's hope, but i think there's also at the same time, sort of skepticism in awareness that this may actually be counter productive and just feeding. she is sort of in view of china as being the center of the world

stage and all think loss runs her hand and you know the rest of the roadmap, kind of accommodate his views and positions. indeed, how closely do you think kelly? no, you policy aligns to the u. s. policy on china. well, i think the, the speech that underline gave on last thursday, really, you know, whether that represents the entire you or not. i think is that an open question, but a lot of those, the analysis that's contained in it that china is moving kind of a turning a page on reform is moving, you know, to i more of a security focus state rather than a trade in economic development. as kind of a driver of its policies. i think a lot of what she said does align with what the u. s. is it's thinking and how the, the us world view of china can generally is, i mean, you're not course monolithic, but there is this. i think growing in protest to feed china, you know,

increasingly as, as a competitor, in the global stage. and i think underlying comments do say that maybe not quite as pointedly as, as some of the remarks coming out of the united states. and i think some of the solutions she's proposing are also in line with some of that economic solutions that we are looking at in the united states in terms of i'm making sure that you're protecting interests in your country against chinese co workers. and she referenced the need to potentially look at outbound investment screening mechanisms for key technologies that could you know, fallen into the wrong hands be used to a chinese military capabilities. so a lot of the, the statement and the policies are in line. i think the question is whether they will be enough to sort of see them all through together or if they're as kind of divergent says, and the commission policy is versus national policy, that the chinese can explain. how did that speech go down in beijing and a well,

because it's a pretty different line. it was a pretty sharp and pointed speech. isn't it fairly critical of china? well, i think that the view from china would be that clearly, europe is staking out a separate position and the key phrase here i believe that was used is di risking not the coupling. and i think that show was the european recognition that it cannot blindly follow the u. s. going off a cliff as it were with this. the other point i want to make to is this. i think it's a false choice or it's presented as a false choice between a more security oriented state ah, versus one that is committed to trade and investment. in fact,

i think china's pursuing both. it recognizes that it's facing an incredibly complex geopolitical environment that really hasn't been seen in a, in a very long time. and requires a strengthening of government structures, alignment of the party, the government and the people. but at the same time, trade and investment greater integration with the parts of the world, they are willing to work with china, including europe, is vitally important and that these mutually reinforce each other and are not distinct and separate choices and either or black and white binary approach but in fact it's both as i could, as you had mentioned in the line and macro going hand in hand as it were. but how much units she is there in year of about their approach to, to china. and indeed the u. s. approach to china or is that divergence?

there is divergence between europe and the u. s. on the eci. china, europe doesn't want to confront the ocean or reggie to, to china. frances, unwonted, germany is unwanted. most you're going to countries do not wanting the day re arise does. it does about time to so rebalance. i'll trade with her with china to reduce risk for why europe was seen a bit as the global village idiot. you accepting all kinds of investment in a country or cause of import and not asking for reciprocity from china for on the shoe of public markets. and therefore that's why there is a fret in june. there's going to be discussions on a global investment act in order to see how europe can defend itself in this global world where it as so further on in terms of import francis and the europe in

thought far more than the export to china. so now it's done, but at the same time, the issue of trade and it going to be is very importance. but he of my call. so wanted to put that forward. the idea that china is not only a competitor, but either. so a partner, it's a partner, especially in the fight against global warming, and to fight to preserve about diversity. and today press conference. there was quite a lot of emphasis on this issue. and the fact that there are many contracts which have been signed between france and china today involved companies which are actually very involved in water and environment issues which can at china with the attitude. so there's, yes, you get a competitor, but we have to maybe redraw to rewards a little bit, but at the same time a partner and that's why defeat there is something to be done,

especially don't realize that the europeans were a bit miffed by defendant. when you, when americans investigated the inflation or addiction act that you don't even if it european companies. so europe is aware of the fact that america fights for his interest. first, europe has to defend his interest 1st and it has been done. europe knows that we don't know is going to be in power in 2024 in you are still is very important for are you up to a certain sense on the in just show see, will come come to try to trade more in a 2nd, in a moment or 2, but at a mock said micron, he wants a china to rein russia for russia, for china to rein rusher in on ukraine. and how ready is china to work with france to push hard to obtain a negotiation to end the war? do you think?

well, i think china's position on the ukraine conflict has been clear and consistent and that a peaceful settlement should be reached. and these types of contradictions should be settled through dialogue and not through violence, but we also have to recognise the china is actually not a party to this conflict. is you quit, a countries actually supplying military gear and intelligence to the parties to the conflict are the ones with the real power to end this conflict. so of course, china france, other countries can urge ah, the parties to the conflict to reach a peaceful settlement. but it's only the parties,

the 2 are the 3 parties that are directly engaged in this conflict. they can actually bring it to an end killing. what's your view on that? i don't disagree. i think china may not be providing and we don't know there's, there's a lot of accusations and there may be proof behind closed doors in terms of trying to prevent no way the aid but it is providing is buying large amounts of energy from the russian. so it is indirectly keeping the war machine running in russia by those purchases. yes, maybe a final wasn't purchasing some of that. it would be purchased elsewhere. but at any rate, china is making a purchases. and so there it does have some influence over russia to, you know, to be trying to bring the work to completion. so i think it is indirectly. i think it is fair to say it is, it is part of that can be part of the solution in this part of the war effort. but i, i agree that the chinese want to stay really, you know, kept move it, move it into a dialogue. they certainly have been pushing for that. how however realistic their

pre proposal plan is, i think, you know, an echoing of common man shows that the chinese echoes what's in the some of the language and the global security. and that's kind of kind of solution to things. it's non interference respects for territorial integrity, which is a kind of a confusing one to treat in the context of ukraine war. but really, you know, for the chinese, i think in some ways that they would like best to just go away. they want, they don't want to see russia fall because that, that, that 4000 kilometer border could still instability into spill over into china from, from russia. they, they certainly don't want to see the conflict move in such a way that it would put, couldn't, you know, standing within the country at risk and enter glover into china. but i think they also don't like the pressure they're getting from the west about stepping into the

conflict more. and i think that was part of 30 something into the conflict in terms of helping bring to buy the solution. i think that was part of the motivation for that's 12 point plan and so they do see that they are caught in the middle. and i think recognize that 12 point planners was trying to get them out of that metal amount of a little bit. and i think, you know, the europeans are again trying to raise the rates as pressure out, whether that's going to trigger any different policy. and i am a little skeptical. so europe is trying to raise the pressure more leverage. the family does the you have on china for them to lean on russia. but the leverage that you as on china is the 1st you is the main importer of chinese goods and is necessary for the french for the chinese economy at the moment, which is not growing as usual, base 3 percent and 5 percent to 4 and 5 percent this year, which is not much and the china is

a big team of americans sanctions. so the best customer remaining for china is europe. so it's important and there's, so europe is c as in division of the word order. that's using thing. as you see, it uses the birth vertebra well, no longer the world rule about america in a way with america as before, the new world order is being established now and appreciate the fact that you up especially not everyone you robert at mac call. once you're up to be an independent pool in the world and which good and to go back to the issue of russia. yes. china and ukraine. china has no. no b for that issue actually do you have training was been very good for china is gets

cheap gas. and now for the 1st time in the chinese russian relationship, china, i still leave you a hand. it isn't for today and it was a got a breakthrough. showing that china wants to involve incense in the road as a peacemaker, maybe not a peacemaker. but this, the force of reason michael was asking for to, and russia just chinese convince russia to come back to their senses to come back to come to the camp of reason. and today she's been said clearly that china was totally opposed to do use of nuclear bacteria. she go and can we, can we go? we bonds in a conflict. so that's quite a breakthrough. and it's a something which we obviously have an impact on rush as aggressive stance that we've seen in the past few weeks and months. and if you want to come in at that

point, ok, so i think china has been clear inconsistent for 40 years that it's following the path of peaceful development. and that a peaceful, global environment is not only in china's interest, but the interest of the world. so certainly i think this commitment to resolving this conflict peacefully can let everyone get back to building a better world from a climate perspective, from an economic perspective, from an income inequality perspective. so certainly i think that this is again, i think there's very little doubt that this is what china is aiming for, if we can come to somebody that and he was talking about a little bit earlier. jack, this idea of de risking and not d coupling. how do you read that?

what do you think that actually means, dearest king, in the case of europe and european firms, is the, is due to the fact that they will not invest as blindly as before. and we've seen the facts that many countries, and many firms, no longer investing massively in china. then we'd want to keep chinese factories in order to have the ability to sell their goods in, in china, and for the book. now only 10 firms are responsible for 80 percent of investment in china as opposed to 49 percent before or 5 years at 5 or 6 years ago. and is due to the fact that isn't weariness to world china that they called always trust china, chinese businessman, as a bonus partners, they can't always trust a chinese legal system. and therefore,

know the companies who invest in china are the ones who sent them. goods in china and big investors, a, b, and w volkswagen b s f. it's, it's about the to adopted companies. and what other companies who used to rely on china as a cheap workshop out a crazy structures manufacturers, factories are using factories in other parts of the world or the other countries in addition, and moving away from china. so the risky means that yes, we want now depend on the chinese production machine, as we saw during the period, it could lead to problems in, in the supply chain. and they want to avoid that at all cost in the future. colleen, she said that china in front of the ability of responsibility to transcend

differences in restraints as the world undergone, undergoes profound historical changes he's talking about in this concept of a new world order that i presume that china would like to see itself at the top of it, how does that kind of talk go down in the united states and what does it do for tensions? well it certainly, i mean especially girl have an i to that the hearings that have been taking place on the hell and in the stand up of the new committee in the house to look at the chinese communist party that certainly feeds into the narrative. not just, you know, she may be looking at a world or he's talking about a world order, but with china as playing a leading role or the center and that becomes framed. and in some of the us political cycle, those china is trying to take over the world. they're going to take over the communist party is going to take over all aspects of life. you know, democracy as we know, it is, is over this, this model, the chinese model is going to get exported everywhere including here. and so i

think it, you know, it has the potential to really be, be turned and used in ways that make it very difficult to, to focus on anything with the tenant relationship aside from competition. and if you recall there is that the 3 pillars of the u. s. and the current administration strategy on china, there's the compete pillar, the align pillar, which is the lining with allies such as the europe and asia. and then there's that compete and then effort to kind of preserve the international rules based water as we haven't now. ok, and i think all the effort gets focused on this compete and really not just compete to preserve the order, but just compete to be china. and that, that rhetoric just really shifts the focus. there. americans were, i'm sorry to interrupt, which is coming to the end of the program and i wanted to end with what's the view in china or on that decision, things himself as the head of the new world order at some point

i don't think so. i mean, i think again trying to be more sensual, but that doesn't mean leading the world. but i want to briefly talk about this idea of de risking and the business world. we say that revenue solves a lot of problems. and one of the risks i think europe is facing is growth. so china import something like 3 trillion dollars a year worth of goods, which is about the size of the french economy. and you know, if europe is able to work with china, france might be able to lower the retirement age instead of having to raise it because of the trade and investment opportunities. so i think risk encompasses a lot of things. certainly, some of the questions europe has are legitimate and should be addressed, but the risk of missing out on this opportunity of chinese growth that could solve a lot of european domestic problems as well. okay. alright,

we'll have to leave it. i do appreciate all your perspective. thank you very much indeed. so i guess says jack, read on that tony to cuddle, and andy mark, thank you. and thanks for watching, you can see the program again at any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion. just go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can of course, also join the conversation on twitter. handle is a j inside story for me, nick clark and whole team here. it's good bye for now. i ah. and a meeting of minds all

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