over towards the alps and down towards the high ground, all the balcony could see some wet weather to into algeria, maybe into something positive to miss yet. and his chance of a few showers there for northern lydia. ah. a meeting of minds all art is kind of suggesting other worlds to us saying what would a world like this be like the fan yoga mainstream economics. if that happens in any other profession, they will be fired. yeah, it will not just fire, they would go to prison. musical innovative brian ynez meets renowned economist hygiene chang. i see a lot of hope. i see a lot of experiments going on in the world, a new season of studio b and spectate coming, seen engaging with china, frances president in the head of the european commission, both in beijing hoping teaching ping can help and the war ukraine with china are

accused of siding with russia. what can it alpha, this is inside story? ah hello, welcome to the program, i'm net clock. so you lead is, are in china for a high stakes meeting with president seizing pink french president. man, one micron says he's counting on china to bring russia to its senses and in the war in ukraine. micron is joined by european commission president her stuff on the line . she says china's position on the war will determine its future relations with the block. so can europe change beijing's mind on the war? ukraine, and how is trade shaping relations between the 2 sides? i need to discuss up ahead. the 1st row mcbride sets about for us. french president

manuel macro being given the honor of a state visit. welcome by his chinese counterpart, she's in pain. one of your most influential leaders coming to ask china to exert its influence on russia to bring an end to europe, worst conflict since world war 2 was going to show who the you. i know that i can count on you to bring russia to reason and every one to the negotiating table. this was she jane paying visiting russian president vladimir putin last month since most goes invasion more than a year ago. jane had stayed neutral and proposed a roadmap for sci fi and peace talks. most west and leaders, including macros have criticize the plan. but the french president has been one of the more conciliatory voices among nato heads of state. 2 weeks before russia's invasion, he met president vladimir putin in the kremlin, under spoken to him several times by phone over the past year. many and now

watching to see if macaroni and she together can provide a breakthrough, where others have failed goals on kinship check. china insists on a peaceful resolution and as willing to work with front to maintain the rationality of the international community and avoid actions that could further escalate the crisis or let things get out of control. in a show of european unity, macro is accompanied by european commission president us, you live on de leon who has taken a much tougher line on china's failure to condemn the russian invasion. the europeans are looking at the very least, to dissuade china from supplying russia with arms. we also count on china not to provide any military equipment directly or indirectly to russia. because we all know arming the aggressor would be against international law. and it would

significantly harm our relationship, the signing of lucrative tre deals on this trip is seen as beijing's attempt to maintain good european relations, even as ties with the us sour. i hope china will tell press the micro on the one hand and then toe of on the layer on the other hand that it is absolutely import. want to have a european perspective which may or may not be exactly identical to that of the united states. chinese and european leaders hoping, traditionally strong trade links can lead to a diplomatic breakthrough. robert pride al jazeera. ah. alright, let's take this on. i'm joined by our guests and some hello in from says jack relo . he's a senior research fellow at the global policy institute, which is an independent think tank in washington,

d. c. in the us calling cottle the deputy director of the global china hutch at the atlantic council. and in beijing and china and mac, who's a senior research fellow at the center for china and globalization. welcome to all of our gas, says jack, if i could start with you in france, why? why this jewel pronged approach? do you think president macro on the line on this combined visit to show that france is part of europe and that nicole knows that china prefers to have been a to ration she. relations with other countries like was the case where shows when too busy and before with china and merck or very often join meeting. but my call is insistent on showing that france, yes, isn't it in country, but it's part of the european union. and that when dealing with china,

with 1500000000 people is better to do on the basis of representing the european union, it was 450000000 people that a country like france with 17 young people. so therefore, he insisted on bringing it up on the lion as 5 years ago, when a shooting thing made a state visit to france, invited marco and the president of your commission to take part in the discussions . so it's very important for my call with specially is very insistent on i think the fact that your role as a strategy, but to me as best as interest and values which are not this 3 doors off its allies, such as america, to show europe as a political identity and france as always, always promoted the id of political european. you will come to the u. s. and

it was colleen, but 1st and the more can be ging for the president using paying the optics pretty good on nature of the most powerful people in europe coming to him like that 20 well, i think certainly china recognizes and presidency recognizes that china has important contributions to make on the global stage, whether that's in europe, whether that's in the middle east, with the recent reproach, mom between iran and saudi arabia and other parts of the world as well. so certainly, i think it's no surprise that we're seeing these visits and more to come. i'd leave the pedro sanchez from spain will be visiting china shortly as well. and colleen europe's kind of stuck in the middle between china and the united states, to what degree is the u. s. wanting this conversation between

europe and china? i think the united states would like to see an action from china on, on ukraine, that would bring us closer to a resolution and that, you know, if there is an ability for your leaders to help gain traction, urge china on this. i think there is, this is, i'm here and probably in parts of europe on whether that's actually possible or whether this visit just yet she, diplomatic, when i'm looking like you're paying the grand statement hosting. i'm european leader, but not really, but on the spot to make any movements towards toward the resolution. and so i think there's, there's hope, but i think there's also at the same time, sort of skepticism in awareness that this may actually be counter productive and just feeding. she is sort of in view of china as being the center of the world

stage and all think my friends her hand and you know the rest of the world kind of accommodate his views and positions. indeed. how closely do you think kelly know you policy aligns to the u. s. policy on china? well, i think the, the speech that underlying gave on last thursday really, you know, whether that represents the entire you or not. i think that an open question, but a lot of those, the analysis that's contained in it that china is moving kind of a turning a page on reform is moving, you know, to i, you're more of a security focus state rather than a trade in economic development. as kind of a driver of policies, i think a lot of what she said does align with what the u. s. is, is thinking and how the, the us world view of china can generally, as i mean, if you are not course monolithic, but there is this, i think growing in the test to see china. you know, they increasingly as, as

a competitor are in the global stage and i think underlying comments do say that maybe not quite as point really as, as some of the remarks coming out of the united states. and i think some of the solutions she's proposing are also in line with some of that the economic solutions that we are looking at in the united states in terms of i'm making sure that you're protecting interests in your country against chinese course. and she referenced the need to potentially look at outbound investment screening mechanisms for key technologies that could you know, fallen into the wrong hands be used to a chinese military capabilities. a lot of the, the statement and the policies are in line. i think the question is whether the will be enough to sort of see them all through together or if they're as kind of divergent says, and the commission policy is versus national policy, that the chinese can explain how did that speech go down in beijing? and they were because it's a pretty different line. it was

a pretty sharp and pointed speech. isn't it fairly critical of china? well i think that the view from china would be that clearly europe is staking out a separate position and the key phrase here i believe that was used is de risking, not the coupling. and i think that show was the european recognition that it cannot blindly follow the u. s. going off a cliff as it were with this. the other point i want to make to is this. i think it's a false choice or it's presented as a false choice between a more security oriented stay ah, versus one that is committed to trade and investment. in fact,

i think china's pursuing both. it recognizes that it's facing an incredibly complex geopolitical environment that really hasn't been seen in a, in a very long time. and requires a strengthening of government structures, alignment of the party, the government and the people. but at the same time, trade and investment greater integration with the parts of the world there are willing to work with china, including europe, is vitally important and that these mutually reinforce each other and are not distinct and separate choices and either or black and white binary approach but in fact it's both as i could, as you had mentioned in front line and micro going hand in hand as it were. but how much units she is there in europe about their approach to, to china. and indeed the u. s. approach to china or is that divergence?

there is divergence between europe and us on the teaching china. europe doesn't want to confront ocean already to, to china, frances, and wanted germany does unwanted most york on countries do not wanting the day. rear ice does. it does about time to so rebalance our trade with her with china, to reduce risk for why europe was seen a bit as the global village idiot. you accepting all kinds of investment in a country or cause of import and not asking for reciprocity from china for on the shoe of public markets. and therefore just why there is a threat in june. there's going to be discussions on a global investment act in order to see how europe can defend itself in this global world where he does so further on in terms of import francis and the europe

in port fall mo, done the. ready export to china, so now it's done, but at the same time, the issue of trade and it going to be is very important. but here my call, so wanted to put that forward. the idea that china is not only a competitor, but either. so a partner, it's a partner, especially in the fight against global warming, and to fight to preserve by bow diversity. and today press conference. there was quite a lot of emphasis on this issue. and the fact that the many contracts which have been signed between france and china today involved companies which are actually very involved in water and environment issues, which can and china with the attitude. so there's, yes, you get a competitor, but we have to maybe redraw to rules a little bit, but at the same time a partner and that's why defeat there is something to be done,

especially didn't realize that the europeans were bit miffed by defendant. when you, when americans investigated the inflation or injection act that you don't even if it did european companies. so europe is aware of the fact that america fights for his interest. first, europe has to defend his interest 1st. and at the same time, europe knows that we don't know is going to be in power in 2024 in. you are still is very important for europe to assert itself on the and just shows it will come come to try to trade more in a 2nd in a moment or 2. but at a mock said, micron, he wants a china to rein russia for russia, for china to rein rusher in on ukraine. and how ready is china to work with france to push hard to obtain a negotiation to end the war? do you think?

well i think china's position on the ukraine conflict has been clear and consistent and that a peaceful settlements should be reached. and these types of contradictions should be settled through dialogue and not through violence. but we also have to recognise the china is actually not a party to this conflict of russia is you quit a countries actually supplying military gear and intelligence to the parties, to the conflict are the ones with the real power to end this conflict. so of course china france, other countries can urge, ah, the parties to the conflict to reach a peaceful settlement. but it's only the parties,

the 2 are the 3 parties that are directly engaged in this conflict that can actually bring it to an end killing. what's your view on that? i don't disagree. i think china may not be providing and we don't know there's, there's a lot of accusations and there may be proof behind closed doors in terms of trying to prevent no legal aid, but it is providing is buying large amounts of energy from the russians. oh, it is indirectly keeping the war machine running in russia by those purchases. yes, maybe a kind of wasn't purchasing some of that. it would be purchased elsewhere. but at any rate, china is making a purchases. and so there it does have some influence over russia to, you know, to be trying to bring the word to completion. so i think that's indirectly, i think it is fair to say it is, it is part of the can be part of the solution in this part of the war effort. but i, i agree that the chinese want to stay really, you know, kept move it, move it into a dialogue. they certainly have been pushing for that. how however realistic their

pre proposal plan is, i think, you know, an echoing of common man shows that the chinese echoes what's in there, some of the language and the global security. and that's kind of kind of solution to things. it's non interference, respect for territorial integrity, which is a kind of a confusing one to treat in the context of ukraine more. but really, you know, for, for the chinese, i think in some ways that they would like best to just go away. they want, they don't want to see russia fall because that, that, that 4000 kilometer border could step instability into spell over into china from, from russia. they certainly don't want to see the conflict move in such a way that it would put, couldn't, you know, standing within the country at risk and then trickle over into china. but i think they also don't like the pressure they're getting from the west about stepping into

the conflict more. and i think that was part of the starting something into the conflict in terms of helping bring to part the solution. i think that was part of the motivation for that's 12 point plan and so they do see them. they are caught in the middle. and i think recognize that as 12 point plan, this was trying to get them out of that metal amount of a little bit. and i think, you know, the europeans are again trying to raise the rates as pressure out, whether that's going to trigger any different policy. and i am a little skeptical. so europe is trying to raise the pressure more leverage. the family does the you have on china for them to lean on. russia. leverage to you as old china is the 1st. you is the main importer of chinese goods and is necessary for the french for the chinese economy at the moment, which is not growing as usual, base 3 percent and 5 percent to 4 and 5 percent, which is not much. and the china is

a victim of americans sanction. so the best customer remaining for china is europe . so it's important and there's so europe is c as in division of the word order. that's using thing. as you see, it uses the birth of vertebra well no longer the world ruled about america in a way with america as before, the new world order. he's being established now and appreciate the fact that you up especially not everyone you robert at mac call. once you're up to be an independent poor in the world, and which good and to go back to the issue of russia. yes. china and ukraine. china has no. no b for the in that issue actually do you have training was been very good for china

is gets cheap gas. and now for the 1st time in the chinese russian relationship, china, i still leave you a hand. it is a focus today and it was some kind of breakthrough showing that a china wants to invoke incense in the road as a peacemaker, maybe not a peacemaker, but at least the force of reason michael was asking for. and for russia, just chinese convince russia to come back to their senses to come back to the government, to the camp of reason. and today she's been said clearly that china was totally opposed to the use of nuclear bacteria. she go and can we, can we go, we bonds in a conflict. so that's quite a breakthrough. and it's something which we obviously have an impact on rush as aggressive stance that we've seen in the past few weeks and months. and if you want

to come in at that point, ok, so i think china has been clear and consistent for 40 years that it's following the path of peaceful development. and that a peaceful, global environment is not only in china's interest, but the interest of the world. so certainly i think this commitment to resolving this conflict peacefully can let everyone get back to building a better world from a climate perspective, from an economic perspective, from an income inequality perspective. so certainly i think that this is again, i think there's very little doubt that this is what china is aiming for. if we can come to something that i was talking about a little bit earlier, jack, this idea of de risking and not d coupling. how do you read that?

what do you think that actually means deerish in the case of europe and. ready european firms is the, is due to the fact that they will not invest as blindly as before. and we've seen the facts that many countries, and many firms no longer investing the. similarly, in china, then we'd want to keep chinese factories in order to have the ability to sell their goods in, in china, and for the book. now only 10 firms are responsible for 80 percent of investment in china as opposed to 49 percent before or 5 years at 5 or 6 years ago. and is due to the fact that weariness to will china that they called always trust china, chinese businessman, as a bonus partners, they can't always trust a chinese legal system. and therefore, no,

the companies who invest in china are the ones who send their goods in china. and a big investors are being w volkswagen. b s f. it's central adopted companies. and what other companies who used to rely on china as a cheap workshop out a crazy structures manufacturers factories are using factories in other parts of the world. i know the other countries in addition, and moving away from china, so the risky means that yes, we want now depend on the chinese production machine. as we saw during the period, it could lead to problems in, in the supply chain. and they want to avoid that at all cost in the future. colleen, she said that china in front of the ability of responsibility to transcend

differences and restraints as the world undergoes, undergoes profound historical changes he's talking about, you know, this concept of a new world order that i presume that china would like to see itself at the top of it, how does that kind of talk go down in the united states and what does it do for tensions? well it's certainly, i mean, especially girl have an eye to the hearing that have been taking place on the hell and in the stand up of the new committee in the house to look at the chinese communist party that certainly feeds into the narrative. not just, you know, she may be looking at a world or he's talking about a work order but, but china as a playing a leading role or the center and that becomes framed. and in some of the u. s. political circle, those china is trying to take over the world. they're going to take over the communist party is going to take over all aspects of life. you know, democracy as we know, it is, is, is over this, this model, the chinese model is going to get exported everywhere including here. and so i

think it, you know, it has the potential to really be, be turned and used in ways that make it very difficult to, to focus on anything with the kind of relationship aside from competition. if you'll recall, there is the 3 pillars of the u. s and the current administration strategy on china . there's the compete pillar, the align pillar, which is a lining with allies such as the europe and asia. and then there's that compete and then effort to kind of preserve the international rules based water as we haven't now. ok, and i think all the effort gets focused on this compete and really not just compete to preserve the order, but just compete to be china. and that, that rhetoric just really shifts the focus. there. americans were, i'm sorry to interrupt, which is coming to the end of the program, and i wanted to end with that and be what's a view in china on that. she's doing things himself as the head of the new world order. at some point, i don't think so. i mean,

i think again china is be, i mean we're central, but that doesn't mean leading the world. but i want to briefly talk about this. i give d risking and the business world, we say that revenue solves a lot of problems and one of the risks i think europe is facing is growth. so china import something like 3 trillion dollars a year worth of goods, which is about the size of the french economy. and, you know, if europe is able to work with china, france might be able to lower the retirement age instead of having to raise it. because of the trade and investment opportunities. so i think risk encompasses a lot of things. certainly some of the questions europe has are legitimate and should be addressed. but the risk of missing out on this opportunity of chinese growth that could solve a lot of european domestic problems as well. okay. alright,

we'll have to leave that. do appreciate all your perspective. thank you very much indeed to, i guess, says jack, read on that tony to cuddle and andy mark, thank you. and thanks for watching, you can see the program again at any time by visiting our website, al jazeera dot com. and for further discussion, just go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story. you can of course, also join the conversation on twitter. handle is a j inside story for me, mccloud and whole team here. it's good bye for now. i ah and a, it's a $1000000000.00 money,

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