and in jordan up with a heavy shower. so we have crossed the heart of africa. the seasonal rains, of course, nudging the way a little further northward. what a 2 showers to into a good part of south africa. ah. a meeting of minds all art is kind of suggesting other worlds to us saying what would a world like this be like the fan of the mainstream economics? if that happens in any other profession, they would all be fired. yeah. or not just fire. they would go to prison. musical innovative brian ino meets renowned economist hygiene chang. i see a lot of hope. i see a lot of experiments going on in the world. a new season of studio b and scripted coming seen saving the amazon, brazil's president vows to reverse the destruction of the amazon, and he said, the world's biggest rain 5 was state for the world. if he can't,

this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the show. i'm sammy's a than when louise in us your little, the silver return to power in brazil. on the 1st of january, he promised to end the deforestation in the amazon. something that surged under his predecessor j a ball sanara a 100 days in new data underscores the scale of the challenge he's facing government satellites show 322 square kilometers of amazon. rain forest were destroyed in february as 62 percent increase. a last year, earlier this week, lula announced plans to host a regional summit in august to renew the amazon cooperation treaty organization,

to promote the sustainable development of the amazon basin. but is political will enough to end deforestation? what are the implications of the destruction of the amazon plenty to discuss. but 1st, let's take a closer look at the world's largest rain forest. well, it stretches across south america from the atlantic ocean on the east coast to the foothills of the and these mountains. it spans 9 countries, but 2 thirds of it is in brazil. it's one of the most bio diverse regions on the planet home to millions of species of insects, plants, birds, and wildlife. b, amazon absorbs more greenhouse gases than any other tropical forest. but scientists estimate that in the past 50 years, the brazilian amazon has shrunk by about 20 percent. lula is credited with reducing deforestation during his 1st presidential term in the early 2, thousands logging fell 70 percent down from its peak in 1995. when more than

29000 square kilometers were destroyed, lula expanded programs for protected areas and enforced environmental laws in 2019 when jail wall sanara took office deforestation skyrocketed. he opened up large parts of the amazon to business, loosen development regulations, cut spending for environmental agencies, and weakened indigenous land rights during his 4 years in office, $45.00 and a half 1000 square kilometers of trees and plant life were raised to the ground. ah, let's bring our guests into the show now we have joining us from the brazilian city of bela is auntie carla mendez, an award winning investigative reporter with environment conservation. new site. longer bay. in south paolo, anna catalina al vinto, the brazil legal advisor at amazon. watch and n g o, the advocates for the protection of the rain forest and the rights of indigenous

peoples in the amazon basin. and in london, we have michael jacob's professor of political economy at sheffield university. he served as a climate change. it iser to form a u. k. prime minister gotten brown, so a warm welcome to yours. i could start with carla. so brazilian authorities a vowing to protect the rain forest, the amazon. and they are announcing new initiatives. are they heading in the right direction though? carla hey, thanks for opportunity to talk about such an important topic. yeah, no, the, the move is missing from doing the lula go over men to really strengthen enforcement and oversight. received an amazon nice key to tackle deforestation and destruction that you've seen in the last years, especially during the term of the former president. and one thing that has been following is that these la to coffers, he promised to be in the for

a station to 0. he showed the bunch of measures. and the good thing is that we are seeing the results of the data from the government release. very simply, for example, showed that fines for the, for a station included the more than to 200 percent. we saw like also the increase of caesar of goods related to the 4 stations. but of course, we cannot, can be innocent and think that all the tray of destruction from the last ears we will seize immediately in a fast way drive the bandits being acting for years. but the, to me they are in the right track. all right, well and the, the kind of the facts kind of bad that out. ana deforestation still continuing as an alarming great. despite all the progress which carla was

mentioning there by the government, by president lewis the silver, the 1st quarter of 2023, we witnessed the 2nd highest level of deforestation since records began. why? well i think it's, it's crucial to mention that you know, that the both so not regime it has been called a forest burning machine. and it was a forest learning machine and it has left to its successor a legacy of rising before station human rights violation. emptied out administrative institutions that are supposed to control and to enforce environmental and human rights legislation regulation in the amazon. so, so what the book will not with ministration left behind. it's if it has a long term effect on deforestation we can't expect. so it's going to take time to undo all of this legacy. so it's actually going to take some time that lives

because it's a whole government apparatus that needs to be reconstructed. but it's also going to take a new vision, you know, and a lot of effort, a lot of investment, a lot of political strain and of rebuilding political culture and the amazon and in brazil as well for this to happen. so it's not only about time, yes, we need time, but we need to complete restructuring and a completely new project for what the amazon region is today in the brazilian and the global economy as well. we cannot consider and see the amazon anymore as a space for extract is ism or extraction of primary goods to exports, the global economy. as long as this exists, we will continue to see deforestation, biodiversity law, human rights violations in the amazon side. the very important point hold that thought for a 2nd, cuz you hint, the really important point on a new vision. michael always seeing a new vision,

particularly as it relates to international cooperation on protecting the amazon. when for example, we look at one of the initiatives, the brazil government is doing is this conference in august to try and rally, members of the amazon corporation, treat the organisation to renew that commitment to protecting the amazon. is that a return? is that move towards something new or returned to simply the policies of the past? well, i'd call it a renew division. it isn't new in the sense that when president lula was last the leader of brazil, he tried very hard to not only implement policies domestically, which would slow the rates of deforestation, but also to gather together an international coalition, including northern countries who could help provide finance norway in particular, but also other countries provided quite a lot of finance and all of that was ended by jo scenario. and so what president

mueller is now trying to do with this summit, which he's called in all this, is to renew what he was doing before. but after, as we've heard some terrible years in which deforestation has been accelerated, and it's very important this the international corporation. but it's also important to explain it in the right terms. people in the north of the world quite often referred to our amazon. and this being the lungs of the world, and of course, it is absolutely true that the amazon is vital for the whole world. but it belongs to the countries in which it's located brazil, but also the other, as in countries in south america. and it is up to them what they do about it, what they've asked for what looters ask for and will no doubt ask for again at this summit is international support, both financial support but also again feel my illegal products from illegal

deforestation. so that's what this new conference will be about next this summer. and briefly michael is going to get that international support. what's the global appetite like in the post covey? the world? well, money is limited. busy people in the north are struggling with the cost of living crisis inflation and so on. but i think countries will want to support lunar in this. it is important for the whole world that the amazon is protected. so i think he will find a lot of support and i think organizing as somebody which is inviting other leaders . and i know that my clo president mccomb for ross will be going, it's important to galvanize that support and getting the world's media behind. this is also important, so i think this is a very clever thing to do to organize a summit. so early in his new term of office or i color, rallying international support may be one thing is going to have to rally some domestic support. perhaps even battle with congress if he wants to toughen forest codes and widen protected areas. okay. yeah. now for sure that to me,

the international and national support, the key to really carry out the, the targets that the goal was to protect the amazon. and of course, the funding is something really important. good thing that we saw that in the 1st day that lula to cough is that no room, for example, release the funds that were frozen during the also not really ministration for the amazon fund. that key project to prove to fund projects and in the amazon in protected by own and having the entire award. connect with brazil in these, this war because it's a war of detraction is really important because most of the commodities from brazil are exported. and it's really important to all, to, to make accountable the buyers because this brother connect to legal the, for

a station. they are exported mainly to the united states and to europe. so we do need to track supply chains and make accountable and bringing the portrait to have responsibility in the products they're buying from brazil and requiring more transparency. because if you don't do, does actions in all parts of the supply chain. we won't succeed to spring stations that kind of brings us to an important point. before i go to, i want to bring michael back in is not just public government funding. that is needed here, right. we need to look at private funding. is there a, a role? is there a way to dis, incentivize international financing for production for activities that is basically destroying the forest? there's definitely a role for dis, incentivizing companies to buy products from illegally de forested areas of brazil, but also indonesia and central africa. where there are also rain forests that need

to be protected. and this is something that consumers can do in the north of the world in the middle east. which is to say we don't want to buy we, we won't buy products from illegally for d forested areas. and then to put pressure through that, into campaigns on importers of these, of these commodities. it's completely right that brazil's task is to try and prevent the illegal incursions into the rain forest. but it is the rest of the world's responsibility not to provide the demand for those products. so yes, there's a really important role for countries and for consumers and businesses in the world outside, brazil. that sounds like a lot of change, which will take time anna can lula fulfill his campaign promised to achieve 0 deforestation by 2031. not that far off. well, this is definitely a herculean task. and if he wants to do those again it's,

it's crucial and we've been talking about several factors and levels are going to policy and markets that contribute to how the amazon is being before for today. so of course, we'll that will not be able to do this on his own. he needs the corporation of international state. we need a lot of research and accountability on companies who have been importing the goods that are illegally extracted from the amazon. but we also need a very big we shifting and we casting a policy. so what we see that today, even in lieu of stood administration, the idea of development that has been so that from mental to the amazon, the people still permeates with state, told us of the conception of the idea that the amazon is under develop, that it needs to be the stage of large infrastructure projects and large scale attractive. and so we still see, you know,

you talking about this integration of the regional infrastructure of south america initiative or era. i think it's called. so this is one of the initiative brits one of them. i mean a recent study by the social environmental institute isa. and brazil showed that almost 400 indigenous lands will be impacted by federal government prod, projects, and infrastructure and pudding, road construction railroads, hydro power plants. so this is in the hands of the states. you know, there are many projects licensing procedures that are active today that will contribute to the destruction of the amazon with forest people. and this has to be critically shifted. as i mentioned before, we need a new vision. this vision is already present. and before, i mean, there are indigenous people, traditional communities, rural reform, settlement that harbor the seats of what a new just for the amazon is. and we need the state to listen also to these,

you know, to these people, to these communities and to foster all the ways of building the amazon of protecting the forest. together with the forest people. carla always sing the lula administration, make those changes, which are those talking about in the developmental initiatives for the amazon. well, there are several projects. there is phil from the past government that were the size really trying to put down the threat indigenous territories and protect areas . so there is a battle in congress to reverse parts of this projects. and in terms of, you mentioned about indigenous people and i'm to talk about protection of their amazon . we cannot talk about indigenous people because they are the vast guardians of the forest. these can be seen several thirty's that prove that. and even when we look

at satellite data, we see that the areas that are there, mccaden, digital plants or protected areas, the are really on always is in the middle of the so there my cape indigenous lands and another important move. and this is something that also during the dual government, he's being restructuring for night. that's the, the indigenous that pears agency we have. we know what china we've done. indeed, you know, she was a 1st woman congress. i'm at 5 front and there is a long way there too because all the collar we still have plans to build dams and federal highways like that from part of a to my house and so on, which we're told will very much threaten the amazon. right? yeah, yeah, no, unfortunately, this infrastructure projects are still going on, so it's really key to have mash on an international outcry to how this the risk

precisely today you read there are, there was a project in by year that's not part of the amazon, but where we have the forest that there was a huge project of a resort that would be built there and destroy the forest. there was the huge mobilization, the federal government halted. so it's, it's key. do we cannot be silent behind this and also the call and of doing digital communities who want these kinds of projects though, because i've read that on the one hand, obviously they don't want the destruction of the habitat but desperate for a way out of poverty. well, they're desperate for, for having the opportunity to continue to exist on, on the earth. right. and so i think it's really what when we talk about what are the implications of amazon instruction, we need to remember that no, the amazon is not only forest and tree, it's people,

it's communities. and the destruction of the amazon is incredible to an eco genocide. i mean, the indigenous movement has been talking a lot about over the past years. the destruction of the forest is the destruction of ways of life or possibility of existing on earth for a mariah of communities. and so many of them are on the forefront and the front lines of resistance against mega projects, against developmental projects. and so i want to bring up one case which is the belmont you hydropower, down in the big bend of the shingle river bellamore. she was like a watershed in move of cas administration, the construction of the massive hydro power down, which everyone knew would destroy the specific and very bio diverse region in the world. today, the renewal of the operation license as long she states, again, with a rule that administration the irony of destiny, the whole region,

the berry by you and cultural diverse region is under threat because it's dry today because it's water has been taken away from it. in order to generate called clean energy, which is not really clean energy, the region is also threatened by the opening of the new gold mining frontier and the canadian corporation called bellas. from which once license an open gold mine in the region of the coal destruction. and so we need a federal administration that takes very strong and strategic stances also in these regions of, in an environmental collapse to show the world that the amazon is not a sacrifice. so for extractive ism that we need a rule of law and the space is that the voice of the indigenous will then traditional communities will be heard and that there know will be respected. michael, is there a way to do both to have your cake and eat it to provide development, but also look after the rain forest and, and help lift indigenous people out of poverty. because you look at the studies,

you know, they say on the one hand, you need to connect these communities with the international commerce system. you need to give them power. but if you build dams, that's going to cut off the water going into some of these communities if you build roads according to one study, well, it found that 95 percent of deforestation occurs within 5.5 kilometers of a road. seems like her rock and a hard place situation. does any country have a can we can draw on a good example or past experience on the achieving both it is extremely difficult and there's something very ironic about asking somebody like me from a northern country which used to have a lot of woodland and forest land the united kingdom used to be covered by woodson forest to now isn't. and the reason it isn't is that we chose 200 years ago, 300 years ago to cut down our forest, create agricultural land, and then move people into the cities to become an industrial economy. and that's

why the u. k. is rich, along with, of course, the colonialism that enabled us to take resources from what we now know as the global south and institute of slave trade and so on. so the model provided by the currently rich countries is not a good one. we got rid of our forest in order to develop alongside some other really terrible things. there are, however, some countries in the global south now which managed to increase the forest covered costa rica, for example, which has found a way of increasing its forest cover while also developing. and yet there have been conflict between indigenous people and other poor people in costa rica and their government. and there will always be these very difficult conflict between the people who live on the land and other people who want to see their incomes rising. and i think outsiders like me and other many other commentators and politicians

outside brazil need to be very careful about how we talk about what brazil must do . brazil now has a new government elected by the people but with a very small majority. so there are other people who in brazil, who opposed lula, but he has committed to supporting indigenous people. he's created a new department ministry for indigenous people which hasn't existed before. and he and the brazilian people are going to have to negotiate their way through to a form of development which can protect the rain forest, protect the rights and the livelihoods of indigenous people. while also enabling brazil and brazil poorer people elsewhere to raise their income. so this is a really difficult challenge for any reason. big challenge. absolutely. college, absolutely big challenge. 4 cala, to what extent is deforestation fueled not only by human activity in human development, but also climate change? i know this is kind of a tricky question because climate change in itself obviously is linked to human

activity too. but it is another big driving force. now isn't it? yeah, now it is for sure. and the climate change is connect to all the destruction. there's is being dawn and we can see the effects of desertification on several areas in the amazon and now they're brazilian and by ions. and we can see this affecting, for example, this season. i heard, i'm constantly contact to with indigenous groups and they all report the facts of their tendered livelihood to that. it's usually to rain during certain months. now it's not happening when it happens to see what happens with the floods, by the way, in the last weeks there was a horrible situation in our kitty that i stayed in a brazilian hours on it face. there are a very serious blood. so a lot of people and communities were and face hinders, does bad situations. so this child has it become

a vicious cycle now where climate change is fueling deforestation. but deforestation is also fueling climate change and so on and so forth. we hear about deforestation undermining of the rain recycling process, but they're also on the mines the, the forrest forrest growth. yes, no, exactly. unfortunately, interest became a, this cycles as a repeating polling the amazon but the cds, natalie, and brazil and elsewhere receive the blood. and all those land fly and destruction in cause our attention dead more than ever. we need to act to protect nature because it's a reaction the human being, they destroy nature and the nature reacts with the right bad effects was right. well, i think we've just got about a minute and a half left. so what's the bottom line?

not only for the survival of indigenous communities, but for the world. i mean, some of you look at some of the papers published in the journal of science talking about deforestation happening at a rate which is faster than the ability of people and species to keep up with to adapt to his life. at stake here, life is certainly at stake. the life of all of humanity is at stake, specific forms of life that are being exterminated on a day to day basis arts. they bio diversity and they told us that we don't even know exist in already at stake. so it will not urgently need to show the world that his commitment to the amazon goes beyond words. we need the urgent them are cation of protective territories of indigenous lands. we need land before we remember that the amazon is made up of a mosaic or different types of communities and people that need different types of protection policies and they need to be strengthened in their will to fight against

global tractors isn't in their homes. i think we've got a brief, a brief 30 seconds mike, always say life at stake. this is not just life in brazil or the southern hemisphere, right? this is a global issue. it's a global issue because climate change does not distinguish between where people live. it's going to happen and is happening now all over the world. and it is the poorest people in the world who are suffering the most and will suffer the most. so the commitment that lula has made in brazil needs to be matched by the commitments of other countries with major contributions to greenhouse gas emissions. not necessarily through deforestation, but through their energy use their transport and their agriculture and so on. so this is a responsibility which lies on the shoulders of all the leaders of the world. the united states, europe, the middle east, and elsewhere, china and india, and so on. and it's something in the end which the peoples of all the world of all these countries must accept is going to be part of our commitment over the next few

years. and it's urgent or i on that 3rd call, we'll end the show. thanks so much to our guests for making this a brilliant discussion, carla manders, and a carolyn anthony ito and michael jacobs. and thank you to for watching, you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion head over to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story, and also join the conversation on twitter. our handle there is that a j inside story from me, sam is a that and, and the whole team here for now. goodbye. ah

and leave me alone. yes it is. a journalists are risking their lives to secretly film the ongoing persecution of their people. 101 east reveals there never before seen footage on algebra when the news break's a 10 nationwide site says that the beginning of the year when people need to be heard. and the story needs to be told. i just want to research deeply and dive into its history and origin, with exclusive interviews and in depth of south korea professionally sees the cherry blossom 1st. al jazeera has teens on the grand to when you move award winning documentaries and lives in fire for a fraud takes on the big issues. this isn't the one off. he's talking about

a systemic issue here. black labs and don't really matter in the police world unflinching questions is war with lawanda emitted rigorous debate. people who are dying because of lack of medical treatment, challenging conventional wisdom. the fact that people are starting to get angry about this is in itself a sign of progress. join me more from on hill for upright. what al jazeera ah al jazeera with . ah, no, this is in use our on al jazeera, i'm fully back t.