nasa libra ville, to de walla. that's where we're running. the biggest risk of seen some flooding and for south africa with that cold front that's cut across it's dropped. temperature is still wet and windy for the south coast of south africa on monday. that's it. the talk to you soon. ah, the united nations, his face criticism, many argue veto town, find security council permanent members create an uneven balance of power. i hope you are avoidance. membership, multiply, winning your meaning apiece. the united nations general assembly presidents to well to 0 more chinese military drills off to taiwan. president, visit the united states, the latest escalation between bay ging and washington over the island of the 2 superpowers pull in opposite directions where it is. i want to to lie. this is inside story. ah,

hello and welcome to the program. i'm nick clock. so the water's an air space around tiwana once again the setting for military muscle flexing in a stand off between china and the us backed island. chinese naval vessels of war plains have been simulating strikes with taiwanese fighter jets and gunboat scrambled in response, begging his furious soft taiwanese president, sighing. when met the u. s. how speak a kevin mccarthy in california last week. the drills all the latest move and a tug of war between china and the united states over the i'm only a handful of countries recognize taiwanese independence for the biden administration has become much more engaged in its affairs. following on the trump presidency, support for the island,

china considers tie one part of its territory and has not ruled out using force to take it. but many taiwanese considered themselves independent and reject beijing's policy of one country to systems. in response to the drills people anti pay say they switch between fear and indifference salt. coca cola al, which places to president traveling different countries has the effect of increasing international awareness of taiwan and of course, verbal and military intimidation from china can't be avoided. but i think because this intimidation has been going on for such a long time, it's impossible to ignore the $100.00 or to constantly talk about unification is quite unnecessary. or rather, there is no absolute need for this. also, china is talking about unification while threatening military action, which is quite pointless. i think it's more important for us to live our lives as we are currently and have high one achieve a bigger position on the international stage. however, some time when he's unhappy with the increased western military involvement and

would prefer better political relations with beijing, about 40 percent of taiwanese exports go to china. 2021 that was worth nearly $190000000000.00. that's 3 times more than it sells to the united states. in this puts it from the chinese state broadcast c g t n. some people gathered it's high airport to protest against president size visit to california is what they had to say. the simon county meeting will cause conflict across the taiwan straits. it can't bring peace if you're going to start a cross straight conflict and ignite a war. what kind of democracy is there without peace saying when go back to the u. s. the u. s. is home if attorneys, mainland, impose the sanctions on the taiwan region, or the consequences will be borne by its people while taking when i saw there's no loss. ah, what is a big important story?

so let's take it on joined by our guests in new york. we have victor go who's vice president of the center for china and globalization and former officer with the chinese foreign service. a miami as june teufel dra, professor of political science at the university of miami, and a senior fellow at the foreign policy research institute june is also the author of the upcoming book, china's political system, and in type pay until one is broad. hugh found an editor of new bloom magazine. it says an online publication that focuses on taiwan the asia pacific. bryan is also a non resident fellow at nottingham university's taiwan studies program. welcome to all of you, victor. i'd like to start with you to begin looking at the push in the pool here. so taiwan sees itself is independent. china as president, she's in ping says it's a breakaway province and re unification with taiwan must be fulfilled in his lifetime. my question is why though, why unification?

what's wrong with the status quo? thank you very much for having me. first of all, no country in the world can recognize either china and taiwan at the same time because it is a universal principle that there is only one china and taiwan is part of the china . this has been the u. s. policy ever since january. the 1st 1979. this is also the same policy for all the nato member states or o e c d countries, and every country within the united nations. you mention there is about a dozen countries in the world still recognizing taiwan. but they do not recognize taiwan as a separate, independent sovereign country. they also recognize that taiwan as the representative of china, which is completely illogical in the world of today. therefore, the so called a meeting between time when the local need of taiwan with speaker mccarthy. in

california is a violation of the sacred principal of the one china policy and taiwan being part of china. so you were whole, literally a victor. let me, let me do you have to go through all the other issues. but let me just say that i have a 2 brand here, if i may, brand your response to that. yeah, so china frequently can fights, it's a one china principle with one china policy. one china principle is china's policy . one. china policy is new us. they are not the same, however, china, frequently 6 to can fight the 2 as though it were some internationally in all belief. and that's how it is part of china. one looks at history. although taiwan was controlled earliest parts of taiwan controlled by chinese empires in the past, it seems a bit strange then to claim that the c, c p, the party that over through the chain empire, the part you know, then control part of taiwan should then inherit these claims of a pre modern empire in that case then often the same as i want,

the province of china. when you look at chinese history, thomas only apartments of china from 1887 to 895 falling which a receipt of the japanese. and so talent has a different history than china than the chinese mainland, and it is historical then that china now claims i want as part of it, despite the insistence of the p r. c. that's how it's been part of finance since time immemorial. so june, lot of control oversee over individual claims. it seems that the status quo such as it is, will be hard to maintain your the status quo has it always change and it starts out with trying. i'm being weak. and although continuing to claim erroneous, lee, taiwan is part of it, is it does nothing. and then as the chinese themselves acknowledge quietly at the time,

i wonder taiwan became more and more democratic as the taiwanese majority took over by democratic directions by the way, peaceful, democratic elections that it's time one, it would be more and more reluctant to keep handling that taiwan war, part of china and as mr. bows comment in international relations. mr. gal, there is no such thing or paper. ah, so to say that something is somebody sacred territory is erroneous, i suppose is wrong because they claim to large parts of the world on, on the basis of the roman empire. but fortunately, it is not foolish enough to do so. so it's very clear the debates over taiwan, i want to move away a little bit over the individual claims and onto why now taiwan is important.

economically, brian, tell us why what position taiwan has in the world economically. it's incredibly important, isn't it? because it makes microchips computers and laptops and phones and all sorts. yeah, that's right. and so in the past few years isn't much more focused on, for example, that's how i'm produces over 90 percent of the world's advance to make a doctor at around 55 percent of local supply. but looking at a chinese territorial claims over taiwan, do proceed to long current dominance in terms of semiconductor manufacturing. and so the fact that set it up here which tells manufacturers power everything where i fall into your electric car or to your p s 4 or 5. that's actually only part of the picture. and so one of the views that is that china seeks to expand power, extend maritime power and taiwan as part of the island change in this way, that is something that someone tried and needs for its strategic ambitions to expand power through the pacific ocean. but then there are different views i part

of as national partners, economic interests, and so forth. but there's also the jewish strategic elements there. okay, i just want to move on to the strategic importance that you've been alluding to that brought and we can call up a map. now, i think and see the island of taiwan. and you can see that the on that mat, you can see the philippines where the u. s. has military bases, guam is further out of pacific, also has a military base there at vic to the u. s. concern is that if taiwan came on, the chinese rule, china would then be free to project power in the western pacific region, which is very clear from that. and certainly, as we can see, it would open the way with net well allow me to make 2 points. first of, i hope the panelists would study history because the united states has been talking about the world since the end of the 2nd world war. the status of taiwan,

among other things. traces all the way back to the cairo declaration and the past and declaration mandating that japan need to unconditionally surrender while g occupied between 189521845. and this is the corner stall of the international order that we are still living. so if anyone wants to violate the international rules and international order that they are talking about treating taiwan as a separate, independent sovereign country. secondly, i cannot say i love california so much and silicon valley is so much. so i want to supply arms to the california is to urge their independence from the union because that completely is ridiculous and no america will ever accept that. so how can anyone say i loved time one so much semiconductors are so important. so let's treat taiwan as a separate, independent sovereign country. you are non god,

you cannot dictate which piece of territory is chinese on not. you need to use international or instruments. you need to use history. you need to use your common sense. that's a guy. let me jump in there, i just want to come back to the question i see i see which one we were looking at. and like i said, let me just just come here i, we just look at a map and i just wanted to ask you about the strategic importance of taiwan and the clear interest it would have in china receiving control of it. so as a gateway to the west pacific that's for sure, but you cannot say this tells or it is. so you strategically important that it should not be chinese territory. that's completely over tarney the international although well, living through. because if you follow these as the logic, then i would say california is so important, i need to urge for the independence of california or texas for example, or any other piece of territory. ok,

which belongs to the independent country. that doesn't make any, says americans will not have it. why should the americans be happy with taking tie? one, the way from china is a june. let me bring in june. now it's a june, as far as the united states is concerned and it's pacific strategy is concerned. taiwan is essential to keep on site, isn't it? yes, yes. and furthermore i to have any history, mr. tao. i think that you have not the cairo proclamation in the past, a nation or not the peace treaty, the peace treaty with treaty of san francisco. and which japan said it worse. we're the possession of taiwan. but it did not say who could taiwan the return trip. so i don't think china has a claim and international law as for arguing in terms of international law,

the people's republic of china. so on that to absolutely disagree with the permanent court of arbitration in the, in the, of the dispute with the philippines over china is 9 dash line. and that's not the only and standards of china, ignoring international law. so i think your argument here hold it, and furthermore, california does not extend the slightest desire to secede from the united states as your representative country, invoking sacred principles. god seems a very peculiar thing to do. ok, let's move away from historical claims to tie one. now it's clearly an area of disagreement, so i think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. on a big issue. we've got short program, so we need to need to move on. so, bryan hugh at president site according to some making things more dangerous by

courting the united states and study includes the opposition party within taiwan. what do you make of all of that? yeah, the opposite party, the cam t or the chinese nationals party with the former authoritarian party in taiwan. and though it's full list after democratization has continued to insist that its claim to power be justified on being the only party able to communicate with the ccp on a equal basis on a party to party basis. but this is our convent towns contemporary democratic institutions. not going through a democratic election, often scramble but directly sending over party officials to talk with the ccp. and so then they came to you and the supporters officer or lodge at the v p. p which is currently in favor of strengthening ties with us to have allied with western powers . the japan, other countries also facing the threat of china with shared democratic values toward off trailer, russian i o came up. this is warmer, that this is actually provoking china and so that it should be restored to power that should hold power because it can ward off. china will not be aggressive

towards holland after that. but one recently saw the visit to china for president minds of the last camp president thing that he hoped to reduce cross retention. and yet china watched the israel anyway. there's a place at the same place, the same time as tie in when the president returned to us. but despite the fact that law visited china and hope to reduce costs, attention, china, the training government and sold off it to declare military exercise it against i want june. i'm just wondering if there is, it suggests that present as i is making things more dangerous by calling united states. would they be happy for china to assume control of taiwan? or is it more case of just, you know, ratcheting down the tensions and the rhetoric, whether there is no doubt that potentially every one wants detentions to the east. but as mister few has pointed out, my aim chose visit did not use the attention. and i always ask myself,

when someone says well, is this a provocative move? what's the alternative? so is sy supposed to sit back? wait, well the p r c. try to buy away china. taiwan, remaining out allies recognize it as the government of the republic of china. or if she do something on what she does and she goes to the country, making start over with the united states to night and stage china. you can't do this. in other words, china is trying to create the impression that are already in charge from taiwan, and she has to do something against the and the problem with my intro is that under his president, she's the tensions weren't indeed reduced by giving up

whatever it wanted. and that's the reason when he left office his. ready popularity ratings were down toward the single digits are, as someone set up the time, he could not get a weapon. bon captured. now here it is portraying themselves the representative of the righteous opposition in taiwan. it won't work. victor, what's your assessment of the these tensions right now and where we're at, and just just potentially how, how dangerous things are. is it always just tit for tat? we get, you know, some kind of meeting between the time and the leadership in the united states, representatives in some shape or form. and then so china, ramparts, manager exercises and drills. is that just going to continue, or is it becoming more dangerous? thank you very much. for asking this very important question, but before i get to your question and i'm going to mention one point with due

respect to june, i hope you are hire a lawyer because she is not talking about the legal status in the clearly legal terms. i'm register the attorney of law in the state of new york. i think i know what i'm talking about. she is not talking about the real legal status of the situation involving the island of pain while read the carol declaration and read austin declaration. ok. her a please move on that we, we already been through this and i did, i did ask you to know in town and, you know, i had, this is august all of the international. all that we are now talking about what will happen each time the united states violates the one china policy including speaker mercy poses a visit to taiwan last year or august, including speaker mccarthy is meeting with local either of a one time one of taiwan then china will be fully justified to

move one step closer to exercising real administration of the island of taiwan. eventually, in all respects, this is irreversible. each violation each provocation will result in consequences that the united states will not be able to bear. because the united states will not send it so just to fight for the separatism and independence of taiwan. because the united states ever since 1979 as legally an international acknowledged that there is only one china and taiwan as part of china. the current position of the us government is a position of elite illegitimacy and it all just kind of g and complete confusing. it's so confusing the separatist in kind of one confusing the u. s. allies as if for example, the us so just will share the blood and lose their lives,

all the independence and separatism of kind of why the across the bridges is a good plenty of time. brian logical and confusing. well, i mean to jump in there, then various comments goes to show that often the chinese government will cite history, selectively are site, want to claim that was an international law. it will claim the u. s. is violating the rules based order of the draft order when convenient for it, but other points it will say that, well, it's off that's in the right. it's very selective there. but then i would remind victor than that he often likes to talk about as though it's the usaa lose lives. it will actually, the town is people, but more than that, i think he's a think about his own country, met a recent c i. c, s i study had 70000 chinese dust from an invasion because a beach had invasion is very default. carry out bloody me the most massive in davis since the day their accounts are higher. so are you willing to sacrifice that

amount of young people for a piece of land that the modern p r c has never controlled in history? so i can find his people for nationals because you claim this piece of land is yours. never mind the will of self determination of the people that live there and have lived there for hundreds of years. but i've never been part of the p r c. and in that sense, these are also principals that come up in the u. n. the principal to self determination. these are things are valued, and i think the question you should ask themselves and others like him is, are you willing to sacrifice these chinese young people there? blood meaninglessly for taking taiwan, which you have never control. and often the oldest, ill be brutal kennedy's female and legitimacy, politically, missy, after 7 days, and that's the hot june. i'm going to move away from the number on the page. can i just ask you to be the bottom line? is it just in taiwan? need more exchanges with china to, to perhaps understand its neighbor better and reduce risk through dialogue.

no, i mean, because china has made its mission for dialogue. but taiwan accept its definition of the one china policy. and this is kim to saying, we're not going to talk to you unless you agree with everything we've said beforehand. by the way, mr. gout, you have miss stated us is one china state. united states has not stead integrated with china is one china policy, which is that there is one china and taiwan is part of china. united states has said it not legit. this is the way the chinese government feels about it. it has not said agrees with it, only that it acknowledges the chinese government position for today was about to respond to that briefly. absolutely. if i acknowledge that the sun rises

in the east and do i need to further agree with that? come on the u. s. position is a trilogy. it's based on 3 basic principles. one is that there is only one china, 2nd town as part of china. and the 3rd point, which is equally important, that the united states acknowledges that the government or the people's republic of china is the sole legitimate representative of china. that's all, it's a 3 parts combined into one kind of a trinity principle. if you want to read the real legal status of taiwan, read these trinity principles, and i don't think a june or people like her do not know how to read english. at least she knows how to read english. so read the 3, come in and kay's, which form the basis of china us relations. the united states did the right thing,

alley, 79, to abandon taiwan, to withdraw or u. s. troops from taiwan to cancel the you as taiwan to promote it. read are relations and further to abrogate the u. s. taiwan defenders treaty. how many times did the united states bend of backward to do these things impossible for what? for recognizing that the people's republic of china is the sole legitimate representative of china. and there is only one china in the world and try one is out of town. okay . i let it really other kind of data we're running out of time with another. allow ryan, please respond to that to victor. victor, please, i'm going to come in the brian, would you like to respond to that? yeah, i'll leave a brief. i was asked her to think again about the young chinese lived. i'll be dying for our meeting of national calls. again, as a tiny person, i do not view myself as chinese, but again,

i do not think that this is worthwhile loss of life, of chinese live of your lives, of anything for an abstract principle. i'll leave it that june. the fundamental question, what is your sense of where ty one's future lies, given all the tensions and all the pressures and all disagreements and the controversy? how do you see it future? ah, i see its future as being and saying when's words do not state confrontation. we do not seek your vacation. we want to be, as we have been since 1912 the ball on the chain and independent sovereign states. and all of this is going to be tested at a political level. jane isn't as with elections in january. yes, i'm so glad you brought that up because my own experience

having the election of server and at least 4 and maybe 5 taiwan erection is that cross straight relation actually plays a very little part in, in people's choices. what they care about is on hold in the road, good schools for their children and environmental concerns. and they do not want to be part of china. and it would be very difficult for united states to surrender that position. we can't get in on that. it wouldn't be against all of our principles. and yes, why would be lost? what is the alternative enslavement to china? the way hong kong has had to happen to know. all right, victims. same question to you. where does taiwan future lie?

where you really want to think about taiwan, try why will never be allowed as a separate, independent sovereign nation, away from china. because there is only one china, taiwan as part of china. and the government on the people's republic of china is generally univers. knowledge as the sole digital that governments of china. so don't urge people to find that guess this mega threat. i believe jewel, we'll live to see that unit case of china during hard lives try very late at night. we've got to all our guests to make to go to june, teufel dra and to bron hugh. and thank you too for watching. you can see this program again, any time by visiting our website, amazon dot com. and for further discussion, just go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside story. you can also join the compensation on twitter. handle is at

a j inside story. mean o'clock in the whole team have life enough. ah ah. a g. a pushing with

one to global perspective. mm. a lot of the stories that we cover heidi complex, so it's very important that we make them as understandable as we can do as many people as possible, no matter how much they know about a given chrisy saw issue, a smell of deck is overpowering as algebra, correspondence that's what we strive to do ah ah.