sample but rain is tempering that further west is particularly heavy in parts cameroon, nigeria, and a long way north in barley and possibly mauritania, which will not attempt is back here as well. ah, from the al jazeera london broadcast intact to people in thoughtful conversation with no haste and no limitations. this dick, it is a most consequential decade in advance is for too many companies that are doing bad things in the front. in part 2 of human rights activists, q me 19 and environmental if we known in a keep the systems that are not working, but the longer that you fight them, the more that things change studio be unspent paid on al jazeera, more chinese military drills off to taiwan president visits the united states, the latest escalation between bay jing and washington over the island of the 2 superpowers pull in opposite directions where it is high,

wants to july. this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm nick clock. so the water's an air space around tiwana once again, the setting for military muscle flexing in a stand off between china and the us. back to island. chinese naval vessels of war plains have been simulating strikes with taiwanese fight. jets and gunboat scrambled in response, begging his furious soft a taiwanese president, sighing when met the u. s. how speak a kevin mccarthy in california last week. the drills all the latest move in a tug of war between china and the united states over the island. only a handful of countries recognized taiwanese independence for the biden administration has become much more engaged in its affairs. falling on the trump

presidency. support for the island. china considers die one part of its territory and has not ruled out using force to take it. but many taiwanese considered themselves independent and reject beijing's policy of one country to systems in response to the drills people anti pay say they switch between fear and indifference salt. coca cola, al, which places the president traveling in different countries has the effect of increasing international awareness of taiwan. of course, verbal and military intimidation from china can't be avoided. but i think because this intimidation has been going on for such a long time, it's impossible to ignore the $100.00 or to constancy. talk about unification is quite unnecessary or rather, there is no absolute need for this. also, china is talking about unification, threatening military action, which is quite pointless. i think it's more important for us to live our lives as we are currently and have taiwan to achieve

a bigger position on the international stage. however, some ty, with these are unhappy with the increased western military involvement, and would prefer better political relations with beijing, about 40 percent of taiwanese exports go to china. 2021 that was worth nearly a $190000000000.00. that's 3 times more than it sells to the united states. in this footage, from the chinese state broadcaster c g t n, some people gather that type airport to protest against president sized visit to california is what they had to say. i did sign a cathy meeting will cause conflict across the taiwan straits. it can't bring peace if you're going to start across straits conflict and ignite a war. what kind of democracy is there without peace saying when go back to the u. s. the u. s. as we're home, if the chinese mainland imposes sanctions on the tail and region, or the consequences will be borne by his people while taking when the south bears

no loss. ah, what is a big important story to let's take it on join now by our guests in new york. we have victor gow, who's vice president of the center for china and globalization, and former officer with the chinese foreign service in miami is june. teufel drayer, a professor of political science at the university of miami and a senior fellow at the foreign policy research institute june is also the author of the upcoming book chime as political system. and in taipei, taiwan is bron hugh, founder and editor of new bloom magazine. and it says an online publication that focuses on taiwan the asia pacific. bryan is also a non resident fellow at nottingham university's taiwan studies program. welcome to all of you, victor. i'd like to start with you to begin looking at the push in the pool here. so taiwan sees itself as independent chime as president. she's in ping says it's a breakaway province,

and re unification with taiwan must be fulfilled in his lifetime. my question is why though, why unification? what's wrong with the status quo? thank you very much for having me. first of all, no country in the world can recognize either china and taiwan at the same time because it is a universal principle that there is only one china and taiwan is part of china. this has been the u. s. policy ever since january. the 1st 1979. this is also the same policy for all the nato member states or o e c d countries, and every country within the united nations. you mention there is about a dozen countries in the world still recognizing taiwan. but they do not recognize taiwan as a separate, independent sovereign country. they also recognize that taiwan as the representative of china, which is completely illogical in the world of today. therefore, the so called

a meeting between time when the local leader of taiwan with speaker mccarthy in california is a violation of the sacred principal of the one china policy and taiwan being part of china. so you were whole, let me, let me, let me get you over to tom to talk through the other issues. but let me just say that over to brian here. if i may, brian your response to that. yeah. so china frequently can fights. it's a one china principle with one china policy. one china principle is china's policy . one. china policy is you, us. they are not the same. however, china, frequently 6, the can fight the 2 as though it were some internationally knowledge belief. and that's how it is part of china. one looks at history. although taiwan was controlled earliest parts of taiwan controlled by chinese empires in the past. it seems a bit strange then to claim that the c, c, p, the party, the over through the chain empire, the party you know,

then control part of taiwan should then inherit the claims of a pre modern empire. in that case, then often the same as i want, the province of china. when you look at chinese history, thom has only apartments of china from 1887 to 895 falling which a receipt of the japanese. and so talent has a different history than china then the chinese mainland, and it is historical then that china now claims i want as part of it, despite the insistence of the p. r. c. that's how it's part of finance since time immemorial. so june, lot of control oversee over individual claims. it seems that the status quo such as it is, will be hard to maintain. the status quo has always change and it starts out with trying. i'm being weak. and although continuing to claim eroni asleep, taiwan is part of it is it does nothing and them as the chinese

themselves acknowledge quietly at the time, i wonder tawan became more and more democratic. and as the taiwanese majority took over by democratic directions, by the way, peaceful, democratic actions that it's time one, it would be more and more reluctant to keep handling that taiwan war. part of china and mr. bows, comment in international relations. mr. gal, there is no such thing or paper. ah, so to say that something is somebody favorite territory is erroneous. i suppose ron could lay claim to large parts of the world or on the basis of the roman empire, but fortunately it is not foolish enough to do so. so it's very clear. the

debates over taiwan, i want to move away a little bit over the individual claims and onto why now taiwan is important. economically, brian, tell us why what position taiwan has in the world economically. it's incredibly important, isn't it? because it makes microchips computers and laptops and phones and all sorts. yeah, that's right. and so in the past few years isn't much more focused on, for example, that's how long produces over 90 percent of the world's advance to make it doctors at around 55 percent of local supply. but are looking at a chinese territorial claims over taiwan view. proceed how on current dominance in terms of semiconductor manufacturing. and so the fact that set it up sure which telling manufacturers power everything where i fall into your electric car or to your p s 4 or 5. that's actually only part of the picture. and so one of the views is that china seeks to expand power, extend maritime power and taiwan as part of the island change in this way,

that is something that someone china needs for it's strategic ambitions to expand power through the pacific ocean. but then there are different views and part of the national partners, the economic interests and so forth. but there's also the jewish strategic elements there. ok, i just want to move on to the strategic important. so you've been alluding to that, brian, and we can call up a map. now, i think and see the island of taiwan. and you can see that the on that mat, you can see the philippines where the u. s. has military bases, guam is further ottoman pacific also has a military base there at vic to the us. concern is that if taiwan came on, the chinese rule, china would then be free to project power in the western pacific region, which is very clear from that map. and certainly, as we can see, it would open the way. wouldn't it? well, allow me to make 2 points. first of, i hope the panelists would study history because the united states has been talking

about the world since the end of the 2nd world war. the status of taiwan, among other things, traces all the way back to the cairo declaration. and the postal declaration mandating that japan need to unconditionally surrender while g occupied between 189521845. and this is the corner stall of the international order that we are still living. so if anyone wants to violate the international rules and the international order that they are talking about treating taiwan as a separate independent sovereign country. secondly, i cannot say i love california. so much and silicon valley is so much, so i want to supply arms to the california to urge their independence from the union because that completely is ridiculous and no america will ever accept that. so how can anyone say i love trying one so much? semiconductors are so important, so let's treat taiwan as a separate,

independent sovereign country. you are non god, you cannot dictate which piece of territory is chinese on not. you need to use international or instruments. you need to use history. you need to use your common sense. that's a guy, let me jump in there. i just want to come back to the question i see which one we were looking at. and like i said, let me just just come i, we just look at a map and i just wanted to ask you about the strategic importance of taiwan and the clear interest it would have in china receiving control of it. so as a gateway to the west pacific that's for sure, but you cannot say this territory is so it's strategically important that it should not be chinese territory. that's completely over tarney the international although we are living through. because if you follow these as the logic, then i would say california is so important,

i need to arrange for the independence of california, texas, for example, or any other piece of territory. ok, which belongs to the independent country. that doesn't make any, says americans will not have this. why should the americans be happy with taking one away from china? it's june. let me bring in june now. since june, as far as the united states is concerned in its pacific strategy is concerned, taiwan is essential to keep on site, isn't it? yes, yes, i'm furthermore, i to have studied history. mr. bell. i think that you have not the cairo proclamation potsdam proclamation for now the peace treaty, the peace treaty with the treaty of san francisco and watch to pam said that it works for the possession of taiwan. but it did not say who could taiwan the return trip. so i don't think china has

a claim and international law. and i was arguing in terms of international law, the people's republic of china. so instead, to absolutely disagree with the permanent court of arbitration in the, in the, of the, the dispute with the philippines over china, 9 dash line. and that's not the only instance of china ignoring international law. so i think her argument here, i'll hold it, and furthermore, california does not accept the slightest desire to secede from the united states as your representative country, invoking sacred principles. and god seems a very peculiar thing to do. ok, let's move away from historical claims to taiwan. now it's clearly an area of disagreement, so i think we just have to agree to disagree on that. i know it's a big issue reading short program, so we need to need to move on. so at brian hugh at president cy,

according to some making things more dangerous by courting the united states and stud includes the opposition party within tie one, what do you make of all of that? yeah, the opposite party, the cam t or the chinese nationalist party with the former authoritarian party in taiwan. and though it's full list after democratization has continued to insist that its claim to power be justified on being the only party able to communicate with ccp on a equal basis on a party to party basis. but this is their commence towns contemporary democratic institutions. not going through a democratically election ramble, but directly sending over party officials to talk with the ccp. and so then they came to you and supporters officer or lodge of the v p. p which is currently in favor of strengthening ties with us to have allies with western powers, the japan, other asian countries also facing they'll try to try now with share democratic values toward off trailer, russian. i o came up. this is war, margaret,

this is actually provoking china and so that it should be restored to power and that should hold power because it can ward off. china will not be aggressive towards helen after that. but what we saw the visit to china for president minds of the last camp, the president saying that he hoped to reduce cross retention and yet china wants these jewels anyway. it's a place at the same place, the same time as ty, england, the presidents returned to us. but despite the fact that law visited china and hope to reduce costs, attention, china training government and sold off it to declare military exercise that against i want june. i'm just wondering if there is, it suggests that present size is making things more dangerous by calling united states. would they be happy for china to assume control of taiwan? or is it more case of just in writing down the tensions and the rhetoric, right, there is no doubt that the pension, every one wants potential to the east. but as mr. q has pointed out,

lying chose visit did not use attention. and i always ask myself, when someone says well, is this a provocative move? what's the alternative? so is sy supposed to sit back? wait, well the p r c trying to buy away china. taiwan is remaining. our allies recognize it as the government of the republic of china, or does she do something? what she does and she goes to the country making stop over with the united states to places any united stage. china, you can't do this. in other words, china is trying to create the impression, what are already in charge from taiwan. and she has to do something against that. and the problem with my intro is that under his presidency,

the tensions were indeed reduced by giving china whatever it wanted. and that's the reason. when he left the office, his popularity ratings were down toward the single digits are, as someone said of the time, he could not get a weapon. bon captured. now here it is portraying themselves as the representative of the righteous opposition in taiwan. it won't work. victor, what's your assessment of the these tensions right now and where we're at it and just just potentially how, how dangerous things are as it always is tit for tat. we get, you know, some kind of meeting between the time and the leadership in the united states, representatives in some shape or form. and then so china, they ramp up some miniature exercises and drills. is that just going to continue, or is it becoming more dangerous? thank you very much for asking this very important question. but before i get to

your question, allow me to mention one point with due respect to june. i hope you are hire a lawyer because she is not talking about the legal status in the clearly legal terms. i'm register the attorney of law in the state of new york. i think i know what i'm talking about. she is not talking about the real legal status of the situation involving the island of pain while read the carol declaration and read boston declaration. ok, her love it. please move on that. we've already been through this and i did, i did ask you to know in town and, you know, i had this, it all of the international, all that we are living now talking about what will happen each time the united states violates the one china policy, including speaker, as the pulse is a visit to taiwan last year or august, including speaker mccarthy is meeting with local either of

a one time one of taiwan then china will be fully justified to move one step closer to exercising real administration of the island of taiwan. eventually, in all respects, this is irreversible, each violation, each provocation will result in consequences that the united states will not be able to bear. because the united states will not send it so just to fight for the separatism and independence of taiwan. because the united states ever since 1979 as legally and internationally acknowledged that there is only one china and taiwan is part of china. the current position of the us government is a position of elite illegitimacy. and it all just kind of g and complete confusing. it's so confusing the separatist in kind of one confusing the u

. s. allies as if for example, the us so just will share the blood and lose their lives. all the independence and separatism of kind of why the across the bridges is i think that's really good. really good. plenty of time. brian. it logical and confusing? well, i mean to jump in there. then the picture is common supposed to show that often the chinese government will cite history, selectively, or site claims to be international law. it will claim the u. s. is violating the rules based order of the draft order when convenient for it, but other points it will say that, well, it's a that's in the right. it's very selective there. but then i would remind victor than that he often likes to talk about as though is the usaa lose lives. it will actually, the town is people, but more than that, i think he's a think about his own country. met a recent c as i study had 70000 chinese dust from an invasion because a beach had invasion is very default carry out bloody me. the most massive in days

and since the day their accounts are higher. so are you willing to sacrifice that amount of young people for a piece of land that the modern p r c has never controlled in history. sacrifice his people for nationals because you claim this piece of land is yours. never mind the will of self determination of the people that live there and have lived there for hundreds of years. but i've never been part of the p r c. and in that sense, these are also principals that come up in the u. n. the principal of termination. these are things are valued, and i think the question you should ask themselves and others like him is, are you willing to sacrifice these chinese young people there? blood meaninglessly for taking taiwan, which you have never control, and often the oldest, ill be brutal, kind of see maintain legitimacy, politically missy, after 7 days. and that's the hot june. i'm going to move away from the number on the page. can i just ask you to be the bottom line?

is it just it's high, one need more exchanges with china to, to perhaps understand it's maybe better and reduce risk through dialogue. no, i mean, because china has made its mission for dialogue with taiwan, except if definition of the one china policy. and this is kim to saying, we're not going to talk to you unless you agree with everything we've said beforehand. by the way, mr. gout, you have miss stated us, is why i'm trying to call a state. united states has not said it agrees with china is one china policy, which is that there is one china, and taiwan is part of china. united states has said it not large, is that this is the way the chinese government feels about it. it has not said that agrees with it only that it acknowledges the chinese government's position

for today. would you like to respond to that briefly? absolutely. if i acknowledge that the sun rises in the east and do i need to further agree with that? come on. the u. s. position is a trilogy. it's based on 3 basic principles. one is that there is only one china, 2nd town as part of china. and the 3rd point, which is equally important that the united states acknowledges than the government or the people's republic of china, is the sole legitimate representative of china. that's all, it's a 3 parts combined into one kind of a trinity principle. if you want to read the real legal status of taiwan, read these trinity principles, and i don't think a june or people like her do not know how to read english. at least she knows how to read english. so read the 3 come in and kay's,

which form the basis of china us relations. the united states did the right thing at the 79 to abandon taiwan, to withdraw or u. s. troops from taiwan to cancel the you as taiwan to prove that it really are relations and further to abrogate the u. s. taiwan defenders treaty. how many times did the united states bend of backward to do these things impossible for what? for recognizing that the people's republic of china is the sole legitimate representative of china. and there is only one china in the world and i was out of town. ok. i thought it really out of kind of think that we're running out of time with another line. please respond to that to victor. victor, please. i'm going to cut in the brian, would you like to respond to that? yeah, i'll leave a brief. i will ask her to think again about the young chinese lives. i'll be dying

for our meeting of national calls again as a tiny person, i do not view myself as chinese, but again, i do not think that this is worthwhile loss of life. of chinese live of your lives, of anything for an abstract principle. i'll leave at that june. the fundamental question, what is your sense of where tie one's future lies? give it all the tensions, and all the pressures and all the disagreements and the control vesee. how do you see it future? ah, i see it's future as being and saying when's words? you're not state confrontation. we do not seek notification. we want to be, as we have been since 1912 the ball on the chain. an independent sovereign state. and all of this is going to be

tested at a political level. jane isn't as with elections in january. yes, i'm so glad you brought that up. because my own experience having been election server and at least 4 and maybe 5 taiwan erection is that cross street relation actually plays a very little part. and in people's choices, what they care about is on hold in the road. good schools for their children and environmental concerns. and they do not want to be part of china and it would be very difficult for united states to just surrender that position. we can't get in on that. it wouldn't be against all of our principles. and yes, why would be last? what is the alternative way to china?

the way hong kong has had happened to do it? no. alright, victor. same question to you. where does taiwan future lie? where you really want to think about taiwan? try why will never be allowed as a separate, independent sovereign nation, away from china. because there is only one china, taiwan as part of china. and the government on the people's republic of china is generally univers, knowledge as the sole digital that governments of china. so don't urge people to find that guess this mega threat. i believe jewel. we'll live to see that unit occasional china during hard lives. try very late, that state leave out to all our guests to make to go to june. teufel dra and to bron hugh and thank you to you for watching. you can see this program again at any time by visiting our website, amazon dot com. and for further discussion, just go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha,

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