last coming back to london and paris, i 1314 celsius at this stage, 23 celsius symmetry. so a little warmer here shows continue, cause a good part of italy try and find it was much of north africa temperatures in rising in cairo with the high of 30 for saturday. ah, with african countries have struggled to reclaim many of the artifacts taken by european colonizers. and this is our experience of identity. in the final port of the series, museums and collectors, still hold precious assets like the bin rooms. few have been returned, but there's still a long way to go and progress is painfully slow. restitution africa stolen with pottery ation on order 0, resetting ties. after years of animosity ticket and egypt close to restoring full

diplomatic relations as their foreign ministers meet in ankara. challenges do they face, and what does it all mean for the region? this is inside story. ah. hello and welcome to the program. i'm tom a cry after years of hostility to key and egypt rebuilding their ties. diplomatic relations plunged when egypt president overthrew democratically elected leader mohammed morsey and 2013 to kia cents has hosted a number of muslim brotherhood figures who fled egypt. the egyptian government criticized that sang and korea with sheltering what had called terrorists. the 2 countries have also been at odds on libya and energy exploration in the east of the mediterranean le decade. later attempts to him in their relation it could have wide

spread implications in the region that could affect political links, presidential elections and economies. katia lopez, holy yon has more to the years after a decade of political animosity, turkey and egypt showed their mending ties. a high level meeting like this one between their foreign minister as had long been considered near, impossible. yet it took place last month in cairo between egypt, summer sugary, and his turkish counterpart, men looked shovel show glue. a shift from hostility to friendliness was 1st indicated when shockley visited areas in turkey, yet devastated by major earthquakes. it's all a far cry from 2013. that's when president ab, they'd fathers see, see, let a coup against egypt. first, democratically elected president mohammed more c. he was backed by turkey year and president risa type air to one condemned. the move relations between the 2 nations

took a turn for the worse, especially after turkey, provided refuge for egyptian dissidence. many of them leaders of the muslim brotherhood hiero calls us members terrorists. he le concept in libya and caro back to the countries internationally recognized government. but cairo supports warlord calling for half dar and his forces in 2019 took. he assigned a maritime boundary agreement with libya and that further fuel disputes with egypt over energy exploration in the mediterranean sea. now, egypt meets help to support its economy and that's something to a kia could provide in their to on is seeking international support ahead of a presidential election and may their attempts to warm ties apparently sweeping years of differences and turning former rivals and to allies. katia lo fissile the yan for inside story ah

okay. will is bring in our guests. now joining me in ankara is use of alabama and international security and politics expert and retired colonel and assemble helene, sorry, autumn, associate professor of international relations at assemble midden yet university and in washington dc. kalil our nanny, a senior fellow at arab center, washington d. c. a non profit organization dedicated to political and economic understanding of the arab world. a welcome to all of you. thank you very much for being on inside story today. helene, if i can begin with you early one once called c. c, a tyron, cc his id to kia has been protecting terrorists. i mean, both the still in charge of the respective countries. so what does change to get them to this point? well, we are, once again witnessing and others. chester, in the me, the least history. let's say because the, there's

a continued graph richmond between various countries. and so you can see here, and this is something quite positive in turkish foreign policy as well, because we have only a small amount of time left to the general elections and presidential elections. and this kind of warm up looks fair, has a power to fax for an affairs as well as internal affairs. and i guess we should have a broader look to the approach mom between turkey, egypt in the last couple of months. as we remember in the mid march, our foreign minister was show and went to the title to get closer with the interruption regime. but at the same time, we now have education, foreign minister in our kara, and in a broader perspective, i think this is the continuation of the approach one between 2 can gulf countries including united arab emirates and solve the r o b l,

as well as he's getting closer, which is while it's patient in the last couple of months, let's say this is quite helpful for churches side because especially in terms of the mediterranean energy security. so you need a such it moves to get closer to formal rivals and or enemies. let's say, because it's almost impossible for churches in terms of turkish and gentle traditional turkish to foreign policy as well to be as old. so it's so many countries at the same time. the reason we see a similar thing that church is getting closer with his ride, with even with greece in the last couple of months after the terrible earthquake that he's turkey. so we are witnessing the officer of the earthquake. so this is a quick moment which makes the countries at least to repair,

they are relations after the terrible incident kellall. why now, why was this happening now? do you think? i think for different reasons, tom are some of them relate to the domestic affairs in each country, or some of them relate to the regional, repositioning, and shifts and the global issues as well. if we cover the 1st level of analysis, which is the most effective, both countries are facing severe economic crises over the last couple of years. and you 2 different factors among them as the yoke of in 19 ramifications, as well as the russian war and clean egypt has been facing this crisis over the last couple of years. and that is the valuation of the egyptian pound, as we know under presented living of foreign debt as well as inflation. the same can be applied to ticket as well. so both countries is felt that this is the time or now is the time to amend the relation. the 2nd is the original shift. as the

previous guests mentioned correctly, there are different changes and that is a fluid fluid. if liberty in that he to right now, different can tell you, trying to shift from the old or policies in order to repair the relations. we saw this particular into key to key is trying to adopt once again what's called 0 problems, a foreign policy, meaning trying to repair and min delicious was other countries. article is out that he, b a, u e, syria, israel, and now egypt, as well as if you look at the global changes right now, this competition between the u. s. and china as well as the national, clean all the circumstances. bush, both countries to rethink and to re position themselves in order to get benefit, what from what's going on? so i think both realize that we should move a little bit from the past and try to open a new chapter and their debate at relations. what is, what is very interesting from here, if you look at the bi lateral economic relations between both countries, it didn't,

it wasn't impacted by the political aperture. if you look at the, for it, for example, the trade volume or increased the from $7000000000.20 colon. now it's $11000000000.00. if there was a 3 volume. and he can make the change between it and, and, and, and turkey, which is very significant with gumps, though they cannot with which in both countries says the perfect storm bringing them back together at this point in time use if i mean there are many issues that have divided the 2 countries over the last decade or so. i mean, what are the terms or preconditions of, of this reconciliation or is everything out for discussion at this point in time? do you think everything probably bill the air going to be on the table because as the previous gas mansion that the changing conditions, especially in the vall, down in the area. i am forced these 2 countries to discuss on the table. but i do believe that they will put their side the problems that they cannot resolve and

they will go further for the issues that they can and move to have been position for. from my point of perspective, they will not discuss the issue about the missing brother food. because turkey all or this thought took the limit their media coverage, insight to cheer. but probably no one can proceed to care, to accept the museum brotherhood, for example, as a terrorist organization. for that reason, everything will be on the table, but at the very end, they will put aside the problems that they cannot resolve and they will move forward with the issues that they can go forward. as that, vin menstruation, kellall, you pretty much wrote the book on the muslim brotherhood almost literally. i mean, what sort of fall out will there be for them in this scenario? d. thank. i think the butter hood is already under pressure from what's happening

between 2 and 2 in egypt. what is that? what we should note that that the brotherhood has been intended for the last decade that a key provided them. a safe haven, many leaders and members. when they left fled the country 2015, the found that st. heaven and turkey. and he got many chances in order to wear change discussion, you get the failed miserably. they also are facing the internal divisions which impacted their ability to bring about a change in egypt. so they got the chance is now turkey is looking issue as a liability and burden on that under foreign policy. that's why they got some measures over the last couple of ease in order to lease tensions, not only with each but also with other regional forces who designated by the way that the organization including so that it be and you eat. so the impact of this approach, my between turkey and egypt is already significant. some of their lead does lift the country. some of them remain silent. and also turkey has shut down one of the

most important t v, so that i chose mccann moline has been shut down the last couple of years. so the ticket already took measures in order to call down potential of egypt. and i think the impact on the rental would be significant. however, when it comes to extradite thing, some of the doors were allegedly ab but, but in violence, according to the government, i think this was going to happen until now to he didn't do this before. so i, i, that was at 30 will accept the egyptian demand or questions about this issue, or which might be an issue for a divisions in the future if egypt asked and appreciated turkey in order to talk to the diet. some of the, those who are involved in violence, according to government taken might not allow this to happen. so this might happen back village in the future. your airline, has there been any reaction from the muslim brotherhood as you know,

to the foreign ministers are meeting for the 2nd time and, and is there a fear there that some may be extradited back to which it oh, there is such a possibility, but you know, we should underline something, i don't think the, the philadelphia at least to the back cross that the turkish government and the kids can be ideal or just feeling it. bob, muslim brotherhood has changed. so it's, it's there, it's feel strong, sympathy for them. but at the same time, there are other rules, there aren't a conditions or fail quality that turkey has to follow with. well, for that reason, as my colleague goals so underlined, turkeys putting a kind of separation with stick between itself. officially, i'm the muslim brotherhood as a, as an organization at the science. same time. i do agree that turkey will not be the claim, muslim brotherhood as a terrorist organization. in my case, i think this will never happen as far as i can see at the moment,

but for sure there should be some kind of concrete steps from the turkish side to persuade egyptian side regarding a turkey limitations against the muslim brotherhood. i think the biggest problem or the potential problem is still lying there, which is lead the so it's not muslim brotherhood at the time. it's libya, libya is there, it's very serious. as so many actors globally and regionally are included in this problem. took you to think that there, especially in terms of military facts for the change. and i think the biggest problem between turkey took care and egypt is leave the are not the muslim brotherhood at the moment. and we have to speak about the, the more regarding the future of to the nation, because turkish steps regarding libya will be close to the affecting future relations with egypt. well, let's do exactly that. i mean,

there's many issues when it comes to libya. obviously the exclusive economic zone, the disputed maritime borders, military interference use of, i mean, how are they going to come to any sort of agreement on any of those issues? and do you think that they can? yes, the libya is as my previous guess also mash and the is one of the most important issues that shoot a comp plan alignment for both countries. and you know that the intervention of the turkish or intervention is site. libya, especially in tripoli, brought a comparative la piece to the region because there is a stella mate position now inside libya. saw if there is an agreement in order to make an alignment for the libyan shoe. probably that they'll be been striation for board size for that reason. if the egypt shall sites on the stance that it is also air when position for the egypt gauer among and for all it is economical. a problem

sir. i do believe that that will be an agreement all of the libyan issue from the point of perspective, after exclusive economical zone and the continental, shall we shoes. i should say that there is no overlapping area in between each a bank to get the issue is again the libyan continental shelf and exclusive economical song. probably that took years gus exploration, indeed, libyan continental shelf and did economical actually, exclusive economical song will be on the lead on this be a to pull parts, but not the overlap. and gary us a little, what do you think of the sticking points going to be for egypt when it comes to to libya? is there a red line that you don't think age of to one across? i think so egypt to cease libby as part of a social security and was service very clearly wasn't took his forces,

went to olivia based on an agreement with the g. a. the general national accord. a government under the storage and, and almost the forces came close to. so c, c came out in a very tough a speech and he drew the red line that they will not accept any further advancements of the either the forces or the gene. a forces into 2nd step is a very critical area for you to push on security. so yes, there is, there is some issues, but i also think that both candidates realize that it can be one way to do it. as the previous guest mentioned, they come to an agreement and i think the issue is not only between time take it also between the opposing parties within the be until now they still there. there are many divisions or the elections were, were supposed to place on december 21. 2021 was just won't. and definitely now we

are missing some openness between both parties, particularly in the light of the initiative by the the you and a voice to libya. and there are some hopes that election with the police by the end of this year. but both parties is either an easter libya led by people have thought of the so called labor national army, the in a and also the government to believe it should come into terms and not have to move forward and putting connections, laws and procedures. if this happen, i think with countries like antiquity will come to an agreement because we know that if this division is settled down, they will benefit a lot economically and strategically as well. airline i want to circle back to something that you said earlier on faces a presidential election in a few weeks time. i mean, how important is this for him? you know, and what does the support like in to kia for forging a close relationship with egypt at this point in time?

well, due to our age, we could have the chance to witness many different periods old took his foreign policy in the past. for that reason, we witness see the positive impacts often 0 problem with the neighbors policy in the past. for that reason, turkey know that actually there are so many advantages if he can, it can underline the when, when a strategy, whether it's a neighbor, including egypt as a regional partner, it's very easy to the structure relation between turkey, egypt, turkey. so b r a, b on so on, but it's also not so hard to create the kind of an m a t to create a positive optimal fairness in which, especially all of the countries will change, especially in terms of economic benefits. and like my colleague goes to on the line, turkish egyptian egyptian economy relations have never fallen down. and in the last

couple of years, it's always went off and off. and this is also very interesting because we see a similar turn with the turkish is drive that relations as well because turkey has many cultural problems, is why it had so many weird times which is brought in the past, but the economy, relational number never vanstone. so, so you need this potential and it's quite aware that it's very important for you to have for the investment to have a better economic benefits from the region. for that reason, i guess many countries, including saudi, or united arab emirates, egypt is why are we, they know that they have so many stuff to james bond. they have better relations, but at the same time, there are some cries of times. we sometimes purposely all these countries are trying to show wolf in terms of military aspects. they are trying to show their

military pollard, until it has been doing that since the start talks to serial and civil war. and so she was going up with a husband, she has, you know, she very significant military acute months which took, she's also trying to sell to media as well. and they were abused in libby and civil war in the past. and georgia is there in b, b, i mean to terribly but not really. so she or egypt are there as russia in there, which is very important. and russia is still there and still quite determined to, to continue its position there by improving its relations with china. and we also see that there's a kind of activity on the united states position as well in libya because after the ukrainian or there's a huge energy in security problem regarding europe for that reason. so united states, sorry,

very much interest that they leave the us energy need the oil and you seen in the last couple of the extent there was an agreement between a libyan company and i can company about construction of reference to re or in reference to re india, and leave your capital off. well, the technical stuff to dig out and to sell it's due to the outside works. so they need great powers. and we choose rivalry in the middle east between the united states and rising china and russia in terms of africa in terms of that me delete plan uses. i want to stay zoomed out for a moment and talk about the eastern mediterranean and how that would be impacted the likes of greece and cyprus, how those countries would be impacted by close ties between to kia and the egypt.

ah, the turkish, erica exclusive economical zone and the continental shelf has lots of problems with the cypress activity degrees, as you have mentioned. but as i said in my previous comments, that there is no overlapping area in between to care and the egypt for exclusive economical songs. and for the continental shove, and so far we have seen, and we have realized that although huge relations, immense relations in between egypt and greece good in egypt, has always been respectful to the turkish economical songs. and also to do sac continentals on speech to care has already declared clearly for that reason, the normalization of relations in between 2 can egypt. we'd have no effect of the relations of egypt, bang, greece and turkey and egypt for this reason. those full problems are apart from each others. but i should also add that the normalization of relations between 2

care and egypt probably won't have an effect to the elections inside. took care because the agenda inside to gaze completely different inside turkey. but i should also, at one not to helene that the turkish existence inside egypt sorta in libya and which is very important from the security off. the sar loon flank security of europe. you know that the russian forces inside a libya must together be devora or poly for half that. and if they were successful, you should understand that the european southern flank, especially the ita live, won't be in the tread off to russian threats which we know from the ukraine. and other issue about that is the problem. is that a, be thought the turkish existence inside libya? data will be a huge flow of refugee is because of the clashes from libby to the europe to kill

so through and that that's flow of refugees from libya to the europe. we should never forget that 2 issues. yes, of course, i should also underline that this created the tension between care and the age of those. well, because their job is maybe as a national security problem and for 30 live is quite significant in terms of many aspects. but this is not as serious in the long run. it's serious, but it's not the same thing that egypt sees libya as national security problem as, as been, as a need for, you know, there are significant for egypt. so i do agree that your position india was somehow beneficial or preventing the crisis in europe in southern europe, a space should be, but i also shoot underline that this created some other problems regarding the regional partners like egypt. ok, killer. we spoke about this a little bit earlier,

but it seems like, you know, as many countries have been divided by the board, you cry and many other issues at this point in time. these just as many that are wanting to become friends again. i mean, we've got saudi arabia and iran, syria and saudi arabia, cutter and barbara, and now to kia and egypt. why do you think there is a coming together of these nations at this point in time all at once? i think this is because of what's happening and i will do all it now. i will be saying may be one of the hallmarks that happened over the last century. this is and your changes. that's happening right now to look at that. i shouldn't create this at the 1st long term war since the 2nd world war we're talking about now more than 14 months of devastating war that's happening now and the heart of europe. this has a huge implications for the international system and the global politics. and we see demonstration of this already happening right now over the place. we also see the rising not only competition, but also the conflict between the u. s. and china and we see the china,

the china chinese attempts in order to have and not the only economic infant was, but also political influence in the region. we so have a very important development over the last months when china broke up for the 1st time ab apiece or is dunkin of relation between the at, on the and all that area. there's something significant. and then there's a lot of what's happening in the region and also in the global living. so i think all these countries that you mentioned, tom came to a conclusion that they need to re position themselves that they need to rethink the relationships are thick and a lot of what's happening. so we, so now what are push, man and assumption of relation between here and this other area, the same is happening between is already the and syria sim is happening. we, are there any other countries? so we see significant changes right now. so now we can not speak of long term foes or long term friends. it's all contingent upon what's happening,

either originally or internationally. i just would like to add something about the smithsonian issue, i just very quickly. yeah, very quickly. i think this would be one of the most dividing issues between kid can egypt for 2 reasons. one of them is you establish what's called the east method indian guess forum or in 2090 ethics. it secluded took you from that forum, which includes other kinds of such as george ben, policy, italy, france, and cyprus. and we know, but it will that cyprus and these are the main adversities of turkey, the main fault of tricky. and they have good relations with egypt. so would you sacrifice? it's rachel, with these 2 countries in order to appease satisfied that you're not something else . the 2nd issue is that until now, it did, it did not the limit or the democrats. they are by the time borders and this is an issue that we look at when it comes to the future relation to both countries. ok, unfortunately we have run out of time. thank you very much. it's going to be

fascinating to see how this plays out. thank you very much. there are 3 guests today use of alabama helene, sorry. out in kelly l. a. man, he thank you very much for being on inside story and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just here a dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is add a j inside story for me. tell mccrae and the whole team here, bye for now. ah a there is no channel that covers world

use like we do. we revisit places the state. i'll just really invest in that and that's a privilege. as a journalist, a meeting of mine's, it's what his deadly word freedom, which has used to cover so many different things. the fan yoga, mainstream economics. if that happens in any other profession, they will be fired. yeah. or not, does fire, they will double to prison. musical innovative brian ino meets renowned economist hygiene chang part one. i see a lot of hope. i see a lot of experiments going on in the studio. b unscripted on al jazeera. ah. you haven't seen the rebels in the somebody led coalition begin, major prisoner exchange of of 800 people.