into northern parts of mozambique as we go through the next day or so to the south of that it thus generally stage fry with plenty of sunshine. maybe one or 2 showers just creeping into were central parts of mozambique and nothing further north was for monday. ah, here's 4 miles, is it on the go and need to night? i'll just, there is only a mobile app is. this is where we dissects online to find thing and i guess from out there is a mobile app available in your favorite app. still, just set for it and tapped on a new app from out is even need that you think of it? ah, in germany puts an end to nuclear energy didn't shut down. it's last for meaning nuclear power plants. but what will this move mean is the nation deals with

a serious energy crisis? and are the alternatives, say, this is inside store? ah, hello and welcome to the program, how much room? it's the end of an era. after years of contentious debates, germany has shut down its last 3 remaining nuclear power plant. critics have long described the energy source as dangerous and unsustainable, but some have pushed back against the plant, siding rushes, invasion of ukraine and the resulting energy crisis. supporters insist, it's the right move, and they hope other nations will follow. this rickly steel guns. we are liquefied the dangers posed by power. plants are very real, not just hearing germany, but all around the world. that's why i think it's so particularly important that we managed to phase out nuclear power. if we managed to take that us,

that maybe other countries will think about what they could do better. we don't. many people oppose the closure. critics say it will lead to new problems including how and where to dispose of radioactive nuclear waste is positioned, doesn't also cut a school full. i think the decision is a huge disaster. it's a mistake that germany is making because we have a unique position in europe and in the world war nuclear power plants are still being built. and technological developments are getting better. well, new and cipher reactors are being designed and then is also the issue of climate protection, which is extremely important that this policy should have been stopped in swansea. ah, our, let's go and bring in our guests in berlin. mark nelson, founder and managing director of radiant energy group, a consultancy which advises government and industry on nuclear energy. in bonn, germany, hubert just bart managing director and ahead of research at the german economic

institute. and in paris, dr. paul darkman, founder and chair at nuclear consulting group and a member of the irish governments radiation protection committee. a warm welcome to you on thanks much for joining us today on inside story market. let me start with you today from your vantage point is closing these plants and germany a good decision. it is a bad decision and it's out of state with jer. it's out of step with germany's trading partners and allies, not just in europe, but around the world. it's a small nation's worth of energy that's being turned off today. an energy that could power tens of millions of people in developing countries or 5000000 germans. it's the cheapest energy germany is got. so it's a fairly catastrophic decision, especially considering this energy. ready works round the clock all year. not just when the weather's right. and paul, let me ask you a version the same question. if your vantage point is closing these plants either short sighted or irrational, what do you say? the actual electricity generation, not just capacity by planned renewables,

next year, corresponds to the output of the 3 nuclear power plants closed by 2030 new renewables will correspond to a total of 30 nuclear power plants, the futures renewable, who bear to us. this moved to close the plants. it had been delayed for several months. there are a lot of fears right now about energy shortage is especially because of the war in ukraine. why not delay this decision? again? i think the different when it's has to decide to continue for me and a half months because then everyone fear that that would be enough capacity to guarantee that our demand. this met our product down in the draw lots of products. so i re, i re, electric production from,

from what limited, so we really needed the best capacity. it would be a reason to have another option for, for a period of time. if you don't rely on by french nuclear power plant being back on grid. we doesn't really work out the problem with that anymore, hubert is when you say that maybe it would be a good idea if there were other options for the time being. i mean, what other options could there be? by the time i thought, what's happening now is that electricity that has been produced, benita last week, will be produced by the next couple, couple of months. and the best situation is that when we decide whether to phase out of color for our auto pay

and, and co rhyming and the best of my time communist or a mega mega our produce than most other countries nearby compared to fries. but it's very much relying on you janet paul for those who say that at a time there is such a serious energy crisis going on that this really just isn't the right time. the critics say to to, to do this. i mean, what is this move going to mean for germany? what are your thoughts on that? i mean, john power exports to france jumped last year and largely because half francis nuclear capacity was offline, with, with, with safety falls. so it's, i think we need to look carefully into the, into the issues now renewals capital, 50 percent of germany's electricity in 2022. germany is on track for it's for it's emissions targets. germany does things step wise plants thing. step wise,

germany said it would stop nuclear. germany said it would go in your book. and this is essentially what's happening. the same is true for, for the coven. coburn is diminishing stepwise, so allison ordinance market looked like you were reacting and may have wanted to jump in. so i'll give you that chance, sir. well, i thought it was interesting, a professor said, when he mentioned that it is higher carbon to replace this electricity from coal. but he may not have mentioned that sheer cost, so germany will be paying about $4.00 times as much for only the carbon permits alone per unit of electricity plus another double or so cost for its own late night cold burning. that's the brown stuff. it scoops out of the ground to replace base load power from nuclear. that's what's it, it's replacing last nuclear with and then only slowly over time it's planning to

add in the renewables to replace. if that works, the renewables expansion has been planned a certain way, but we do not know if germans will tolerate the further construction of wind turbans in their villages. i know that germans say they support an abstract, but it's not clear that that will happen. so counting future weather and climate based energy, as for sure, going to common replace the nuclear electricity that is lost and being replaced by the call electricity. now i don't know. and one other thing for germany to be hogging by choice hogging carbon permits, carbon emission trading permits. that means that poor countries in europe will not be able to feed their industries, will not be able to power their businesses because germany is buying the fossil fuels and the carbon and permits with wealth levels that are higher than surrounding nations. paul, it look to me like you may want to jump in or react to what mark was saying. so go ahead please, or can i think we need to talk about this in the round?

now the most recent i p c. c. international panel on climate change in her l. 6 are poor to station quite clearly, the renewals are our best bet. 44 carbon in her 4 carbon and under machine costs. now they state pre k that renew was 10 times better the nuclear or cutting emissions. the international energy agency world energy outlook says that renewables are the most important way to reduce c o 2 emissions in the electricity sector. so despite one of the, as it were nuclear here, the fact is the renewable evolution is here and it's nuclear is. i'm sorry, but it's, it's largely marginal worldwide about 95 percent of all new capacity worldwide. this year, additions will be renewables with nuclear, nowhere who bear to see how much of a conundrum does all of this create for energy policy makers,

both in germany and in other parts of europe. i think it's pretty, pretty organized and that way that we are rated copying it for very long time and it the planning process we are, we are in and coming to an end right now and more in a, in a corporate america place the topic about the phase out and moving into renewable energy, but not only me the renewable energy, and when does it not that there's not enough capacity, but the problem is that there's not enough not enough time to to meet the demand. so we need back up capacity, and the capacity has to be get higher because it can be not flexible enough. depends on, you know,

the problem received right now. it's more. how do we organize, how do we make that new iteration possible that we need based based and back i guess maybe one day i i think that's the main that we have to do and it's not so much about that. no, no one is arguing that we couldn't move to what renewable energy the question is, what? what the rest of the rest of what could be the rest of the capacity and decided to do with the indeed more costly and more climate hummingway. paula: you were you were nodding your head along with lot of what hubert, this was saying there. did you want to add to the point that he was making?

yeah, i mean, recently oxford university university college london research. she was states that renewables comfortably comfortably the cheapest and most effective form of electricity production and c o 2 mitigation. so renewables come in at maybe a quarter, maybe a 5th, the cost of, of new nuclear. nuclear is just far too expensive. it's, and critically in terms of our climate problems, it's just too late. it takes up to 20 years to put on one nuclear station. we simply do not have the time, we do not have the capacity for, for, for, for new nuclear. the, the only option our only option is it is indeed renewables. and if you want to look at another example, new terms of france, e, d, f are centrally bankrupt for 64000000000 in debt 1st year. 20000000000 debt for 2000000000 a loss this year. last year, half of the nuclear plant was offline. so forcing macro to essentially nationalize

nuclear. so the probably with nuclear is this. the key is climate. it will be there's no question. it is, will be too late for climate. and in terms of facts, there is no question, but there is no question about that renewals will do the heavy lifting for net 0. that's not a, that's not rhetoric. that's not me. that's saying that that is, it's just simply a fact. and mark, you clearly wanted to have been just then go ahead. i agree with doctor dorothy and that the french lee was performing poorly. but that just underscores the german nuclear fleet that is closing today is the envy of the world. the 3 finest reactors in the world, producing the most electricity, ultra high reliability. if the french fleet were managed by germans, it might, there might not have been an energy crisis last year, but instead it's a german fleet with outstanding record outstanding potential. in fact,

the german nuclear plants operate so well that it takes 10 times as much solar panels capacity to match what nuclear does per gigawatt. it says stallnicher number . and the fact that we have to cite countries that are stating they will become nuclear focus in the future, like france, france is moving towards nuclear, yet it's germany who's nuclear plants are already built today. not in 20 years like dr. dore been said, nuclear plants are ready today in germany. they don't need upgrades. they don't need fixing, they're ready today to provide the cheapest, stablish energy for 12000000 germans. so to change the subject to a nuclear fleet that isn't working well is to is to miss the fact that it's the german nuclear fleet. that's the outstanding backbone of energy for europe during the winter. hubert as it looked like you want to jump in to i didn't mean to interrupt you earlier, but i also want to ask you how do the costs compare and contrast when it comes to

nuclear energy and renewable energy to differentiate between to time perfect. if we're talking about the long term perspective and talking about building your, you get power plant in the press number and economic library nomic profit race and the, the later the period in europe had a different story that much more of been what, what we're talking right now is the money the $50.00 and they have yet to go there, pay for and it. and that's why it's or is it see to you that a trip from, from them comparing those 2. they're pretty similar. they have very high and very high capital investment and low,

almost their operating costs. and i mean that's it's, it's probably the or the construction of the, the market. the main difference is, or one of the main difference is that you can run a credit for 7 y, at least, and either of the renewable david but, and then depends on the whether the race and that for back up capacity might be this might be effective but it does the demand which might be gas are or biomed. but at least they need to have to be paid for it. paul, you, you wrote a piece last year in which you said it's not just a nuclear is slow, inexpensive. it's just far too inflexible. to go up and down with the swings of demand. why is that the case? basically launch them in frost. they said it goes up and down with the money

doesn't necessarily do it doesn't what's known as load far. it doesn't sort of do this well to backup variable renewables. there are answers to renew in terms of storage, in terms of demand side management to terms of interconnection in terms of distributed grids. it, in other words, we can do renewables plus now the problem with, with now given the fact and it is a fact that renewables will do the heavy lifting from that 0. the last thing that you want to back that up with is, is nuclear. because nuclear goes and runs, it's annette economic if it doesn't do that, basically it's just simply an economic. so the very last thing that you want to back up the variability of, of, of renewables is nuclear. mark icing. see you are reacting with paul was saying there and let you make your point. but, but i also want to ask you about a broader question about how attitudes have changed from one generation to the next

when it comes to perceptions of nuclear power and how that is impacting this debate . yes, so 1st in response to the variability nuclear plants have excellent ability to go up and down. i mean, for one, it would be a basic safety requirements. so nuclear plants can and do operate and load following mo. now there's no reason that the nuclear plants should do more load. following just because some weather based energy gets more subsidies, that may be good for the owners of the wind and solar plan. but it does not make economic good sense for the country as a whole. so germany is about to discover that, of course, that they're going to back up there when in solar, with hard coal and ignite all instead of that or should cheat, nuclear they had that seems to be an error, but make no mistake. it's not a physical limitation. from nuclear, to have to move up and down. it's not a problem. so i will say that attitudes are changing around the world towards nuclear. although it's possible to find many outstanding advocates for nuclear who

are from the older generations. it's almost impossible to find young people around the world, including in germany who are active against nuclear. and it's probably because they don't fear it. and they did not learn to fear it, which leaves them curious. so they investigate. once young people and old people get curious about nuclear investigate, they find that what they've heard is untrue, and they demand more nuclear power. that's why you see countries around europe planning nuclear programs now including multiple countries on the border with germany at plans to add nuclear today from the netherlands to france to poland for the 1st time. that's because of young people being very interested in nuclear and older people who have to provide energy for their choosing nuclear hubert is, what is the landscape look like right now when it comes to other european countries, a demand for nuclear energy,

other countries that are planning to expand nuclear energy or build new power plants from europe. it's very different from country psychiatry, mostly relying on on that for climate reading. and also for the long term for this new country in europe can enable countries have added new capacity and moving more in that direction, combining it with the renewable energy they, they have so and that's why because to find your perspective on that kind of be even if you talk, if you could discuss the higher than a project for the future, big debate between for us and feminine for higher than and made based on

electricity for me to be labeled as green and painted or not from the under protect perspective, it's not from on the front, but it's the freedom of relative become free. and therefore for paul, you're in france. france has been very active in developing nuclear technology and it drives most it's like tricity from nuclear energy. it's announced plans to build more new reactors. if you think that france is going to go ahead with that, it could be, it could be the problem is, of course, is that france is also facing a, up to a $100000000000.00 euros bill on mandatory safety upgrades for its current for its current nuclear react to fleet, and in terms of the payoff, the kind of react to that, it says it may build these reactors have been over cost and over time,

everywhere they've, they've been built. so one has to question the, the, the relative wisdom of, of, of, of continuing this. and it has to be said that, i mean, worldwide. i mean, it's worth repeating the 95 percent or new electricity capacity worldwide this year . a put down has been renewables with nuclear. no. right. so there's a kind of a paradox. you, there's a lot of flat for nuclear. there's a lot of discourse for nuclear potentially because nuclear is a very strong lobby in or all kinds of programmatic ways. but the reality is, the heavy lifting will be done by the renewable evolution, which is here and now faster, quicker, cheaper, cleaner, paul, let me just follow up with you about one of the incidents that lead to this decision that germany took, of course, the fukushima nuclear disaster you led the european environment agency response to

the focus she meant clear disaster, how have policies in europe been informed by those findings? michael is assigned to st. and the word has it that she just took a look at the, the so called probabilities of the risk. and she said, well look, talk soon, and the idea, yea, the essential as tommy kennedy, you authority head of the leg, which is the nuclear regulated international, says that we are now living on borrowed time times as upper issue in a world that's becoming increasing unstable to have these hit targets is deeply problematic. now in terms of fukushima, what we've seen is that even in advanced state, the consequences of a real nuclear accident can be catastrophic. and i remember after speaking on the same platform as no to khan, who was the prime minister of japan at the same time we had supper afterwards. and

being astonished when he turned to me and said, look, if the wind was in the wrong direction, we would have lost tokyo at mark, i see a reacting, i will let you jump in here. but, but i also ask one of the thing germany is closure of these plants is also in contrast to the plans of the u. k. government because they're pushing forward with plans for new nuclear projects right now as well. right? yes. all of the g 7 except for germany are emitted to nuclear energy, especially in japan. the voters of japan democratically chose time after chime the most pro nuclear candidate possible that mandate has given the government in japan, the desire to repeatedly and announce expansions of its ambitions in nuclear energy, not just restarting reactors that have been closed since the disaster who became a diet sheet, but adding more. there's a reason why the countries were the great nuclear disasters have occurred. i've learned to not be afraid of new there, for example, and you're praying. i understand that dr. dorman was quoting the, i e,

talking about our time. but that he's, that's not actually correct the reactors at zachary z, a nuclear plant are all turned off. the heat level is low, it means that lucas human type disaster is simply not in the cards. but the engineering message has not gotten out to people. why is that is because quite to the contrary of doctor doff mintz claim that the atomic lobby is powerful. the nuclear industry is almost completely incapable of talking plainly and clearly to the public eye in on this program. in part because nuclear employees are not allowed to talk to the press almost anywhere in the world. and nuclear companies have avoided conversations with the public wrongly as it turns out, that nuclear lobby in germany was paid off the government to stay silent. and they were not present today, and they scarcely speak the media. that's quite the opposite of the claims that the

some, the nuclear lobby is powerful rather than people getting involved, volunteering their time and speaking up. which is the reason why young people around the world are turning in the same direction as the g 7, except for germany, which is a commitment to nuclear appall. i saw you raise your hand. i know you want to jump in. just please be mindful. we just have about a minute and a half left. go ahead it's, it's difficult to know what to say. i'm it aside from essentially piano it's, it's difficult to understand why there's so much discussion about nuclear in terms of policy and, and, and press at the moment. the reality is, is it, it's essentially quite marginal, it's quite dangerous. the issue of waste hasn't been result. and a, in an increasing unstable world to, to, to produce more target seems deeply, deeply questionable,

especially because we have alternatives. we have other ways of doing things. nuclear is basically a 20 century technology. it's passed. it's so by the date, the future is renewable. all right, well we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation now. thanks so much to all of our guests, mark nelson, who bear to spart and dr. paul dorothy and thank you for watching. you can see the program again. any time by visiting our website of 0 dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. our handle is at ha, inside stored for me. mm hm. mm hm. jerome, in the whole team here, bye for now. ah

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