shanice, specifically the western yang see river valley chung ching at $34.00 degrees that is wall above average. and we got a weather maker whip in us with rain and wind for ha, kado island. same goes for southern areas of honshu, those winds will exceed 80 kilometers per hour on sunday season. ah, ah, award winning documentary is from around the world on out 0. thought the law will. the law when with neither side, willing to negotiate is the ukraine war becoming a forever war is america's global leadership, increasingly fragile. what will us politics look like as we had to the presidential election of 2024, the quizzical look us politics, the bottom line. germany puts an end to nuclear energy that has shut down its last remaining nuclear power plant. but what will this move mean is the nation deals

with a serious energy crisis? and are the alternatives, say, this is inside store? ah, ah. hello and welcome to the program, how much in room it's the end of an era. after years of contentious debates, germany has shut down its last 3 remaining nuclear power plant. critics have long described the energy source as dangerous and unsustainable, but some have pushed back against the plan, citing russia's invasion of ukraine and the resulting energy crisis. supporters insist it's the right move, and they hope other nations will follow. this rickly steve guns, we are looking for the dangers posed by power. plants are very real, not just hearing germany, but all around the world. that's why i think it's so particularly important that we managed to face out nuclear power. if we manage to take that us,

that maybe other countries will think about what they could do better than many people oppose the closure. critics say it will lead to new problems including how and where to dispose of radioactive nuclear waste. as president, fin doesn't also cut a school full. i think the decision is a huge disaster. it's a mistake that germany is making because we have a unique position in europe and in the world. weekly power plants are still being built. and technological developments are getting bitter new and cipher reactors are being designed then is also the issue of climate protection, which is extremely important that this policy should have been stopped in swansea. ah, our, let's go and bring in our guests in berlin. mark nelson, founder and managing director of radiant energy group a consult and see which advises governments and industry on nuclear energy. in bonn, germany who berta bart managing director and head of research at the german

economic institute. and in paris, dr. paul door from a founder and chair at nuclear consulting group and a member of the irish governments radiation protection committee. a warm welcome to you on thanks much for joining us today on inside story market. let me start with you today from your vantage point is closing these plants and germany a good decision. it is a bad decision and it's out of state with jer. it's out of step with germany's trading partners and allies, not just in europe, but around the world. it's a small nation's worth of energy that's being turned off today. an energy that could power tens of millions of people in developing countries or 5000000 germans. it's the cheapest energy. germany's got. so it's a fairly catastrophic decision, especially considering this energy. ready works round the clock all year. not just when the weather's right. it, paul, let me ask you a version. the same question from your vantage point is closing these plants either short sighted or irrational? what do you say? the actual electricity generation, not just capacity by planned renewables,

next year, corresponds to the outputs of the 3 nuclear power plants closed by 2030 new renewables will correspond to total of 30 nuclear power plants. the future is renewable. who artists this move to close the plants? it had been delayed for several months. there are a lot of fears right now about energy shortage, especially because of the war in ukraine. why not delay this decision? again? i think the different when, when it's decided to continue for me and a half months, because then everyone fear that that would be enough to guarantee that on demand. this meant there are in process where you draw lots of products. so i, i relate to production and from,

from the concrete, what limited that we really needed the best capacity. it would be a reason to have another option for a certain period of time. if you don't rely on friends nuclear power plant being big on grid, we don't know that really worked out the probably where we bought that anymore. hubert is when you say that maybe it would be a good idea if there were other options for the time being. i mean, what other options could there be by the time of what's happening now? is that electricity that has been produced, benita last week will be produced by the next couple months. and the best situation is that when we decide whether to fade out a code for our earth and,

and keep co rhyming and break my tire communist or a mega mega out for you. then the most other countries nearby compared to fries, very much relying on you janet paul and for those who say that at a time there is such a serious energy crisis going on, that this really just isn't the right time. the critics say to, to, to do this, i mean, what is this move going to mean for germany? what are your thoughts on that? i mean, john power exports to france jumped last year and largely because half was francis nuclear capacity was offline with, with, with safety faults. so it's, i think we need to look carefully into the, into the issues now renewals capital, 50 percent of germany's electricity, and 2022 germany is on track for it's for it's emissions targets. germany does

things step wise, plants, things, step wise, germany said it would stop nuclear. germany said it would go in your book and this is essentially what's happening. the same is true for for the cobra and the coburn is diminishing stepwise. so our northern market looked like you were reacting and may have wanted to jump into. i'll give you that chance, sir. well, i thought it was interesting, a professor said when he mentioned that it is higher carbon to replace this electricity from coal. but he may not have mentioned that shared cost, so germany will be paying about $4.00 times as much for only the carbon permits alone per unit of electricity plus another double or so cost for its own like night, cold burning. that's the brown stuff. it screws out of the ground to replace base load power from nuclear. that's what's it, it's replacing last nuclear with and then only slowly over time. it's it planning

to add in the renewables to replace if that works, that the renewables expansion has been planned a certain way, but we do not know if the germans will tolerate the further construction of wind turbans in their villages. i know that germans say they support an abstract, but it's not clear that will happen. so counting future weather and climate based energy. as for sure, going to common replace the nuclear electricity that is lost and being replaced by the call electricity. now i don't know, and one other thing for germany to be hogging by choice hogging carbon permits, carbon emission trading permits. that means that poor countries in europe will not be able to feed their industries, will not be able to power their businesses because germany is buying the fossil fuels and the carbon and permits with its wealth levels that are higher than surrounding nations. paul, it look to me like you may want to jump in or react to what mark was saying. so go ahead please, or can i think we need to talk about this in the round?

now the most recent i p c. c. international panel on climate change in her, they are 6 report to station quite clearly the renewals are our best bet. 44 carbon in her for carbon. i'm under mission costs. now they state the k that renew was 10 times better than nuclear or cussing emissions. the international energy agency world energy outlook says that renewables are the most important way to reduce c o 2 emissions in the electricity sector. so despite all of the, as it were nuclear here, the fact is the renewable evolution is here and it's nuclear is, i'm sorry, but it's, it's largely marginal worldwide about 95 percent of all new capacity worldwide. this year, additions will be renewables with nuclear know who where to see how much

of a conundrum does all of this create for energy policy makers, both in germany and in other parts of europe, i think is pretty, pretty organized. and that way we upgraded, copying it for very long time, and this is the plan process we. we are in and coming to an end right now. and we are more in a, in a corporate america place, move in the topic about the phase out the code and moving into renewable energy. but not only the renewable energy. and when does it not that there's not enough capacity. but the problem is that there's not enough really not enough time to to meet the demand that we need back up capacity. and the capacity has to be get higher because it can be flexible

enough on the fans or not. but you know, so the problem received right now is how do we organize, how do we make that new iteration possible that we need bass, bass and back, i guess, maybe one day i i think that that's the main that we have to do. and it's not so much about that. no, no one is arguing that we couldn't move to what renewable energy the question is, what, what the rest of the rest of what could be the rest of the capacity and decided to do it the more costly and more climate hummingway paul, you were you were nodding your head along with a lot of what, who burgess was saying there? did you want to add to the point that he was making?

yeah, i mean, recently oxford university university college london research in a states that renewables comfortably comfortably the cheapest and most effective form of electricity production and c o 2 mitigation. so renewables come in at maybe a quarter, maybe a 5th, the cost of, of new nuclear. nuclear is just far too expensive. it's a and critically in terms of our climate problems, it's just too late. it takes up to 20 years to put on one nuclear station, we simply do not have the time. we do not have the capacity for, for, for, for new nuclear. the, the only option our only option is, is indeed renewables. and if you want to look at another example, new terms of france, e, d, f are centrally bankrupt for 64000000000 in debt. post your 20000000000 debt for 2000000000 a lost this year. last year, half of the nuclear plant was offline. so forcing macro to essentially nationalize

nuclear. so the problem with nuclear is this. the key is climate. it will be there's no question. it is, will be too late for climate and in terms of facts get, there is no question, but there is no question, but the renewals will do the heavy lifting for net 0. that's not a, that's not rhetoric. that's not me. that's saying that that is, it's just simply a fact mark you clearly want to have been just then go ahead. i agree with dr. dorman that the french fleet was performing poorly. but that just underscores the german nuclear fleet that is closing today is the envy of the world, the 3 finest reactors in the world, producing the most electricity, ultra high reliability. if the french fleet were managed by germans, it might, there might not have been an energy crisis last year, but instead it's a german fleet without standing record outstanding potential. in fact,

the german nuclear plants operate so well that it takes 10 times as much solar panels capacity to match what nuclear does per gigawatt. it says stunning number. and the fact that we have to cite countries that are stating they will become nuclear focus in the future like france, france is moving towards nuclear, yet it's germany who's nuclear plants are already built today. not in 20 years like dr. durban said, nuclear plants are ready today in germany. they don't need upgrades. they don't need fixing, they're ready today to provide the cheapest, stablish energy for 12000000 germans. so to change the subject to a nuclear fleet that isn't working well is to is to miss the fact that it's the german nuclear fleet. that's the outstanding backbone of energy for europe during the winter. hubert as it looked like you want to jump in to i didn't mean to interrupt you earlier, but i also want to ask you how do the costs compare and contrast when it comes to

nuclear energy and renewable energy we differentiate between to time perfect. if we're talking about the long term perspective and talking about building your, you get it in the press number and economic we live or, i mean, i'm a product race office and i need the, the lead. the peer in europe had a different story that might have been what, what we're talking right now is the money the and they have yet to go there paper and it and why it's are it see? so you got a trip from, from them. so comparing those 2, they're pretty similar, they have very high and very high capital investment and low,

almost their operating costs. and i mean, that's probably the or the construction of the, the market. the main difference is, or one of the main differences that nuclear running 247, why at least and other renewables david but, and then depends on the situation. and that for back up capacity might be this might be effective, but it don't demand which might be gas are or biomed, but at least they need to have to be paid for it. paul, you, you wrote a piece last year in which you said it's not just a nuclear is slow, inexpensive. it's just far too inflexible to go up and down with the swings of demand. why is that the case?

basically launch them in frost. they said it goes up and down with the money, doesn't necessarily do it, doesn't what's known as load far. it doesn't sort of do this well to backup variable renewables. there are answers to renew in terms of storage, in terms of demand side management to terms of interconnection in terms of distributed grids. it, in other words, we can do renewables plus now the problem with, with not given the fact. and it is a fact that renewables will do the heavy lifting from that 0. the last thing that you want to back that up with is, is nuclear, because nuclear goes and runs, it's annette can only if it doesn't do that, basically it's just simply an economic. so the very last thing that you want to back up the variability of, of renewables is nuclear mark i cc you are reacting with paul was saying there and let you make your point. but, but i also want to ask you about

a broader question about how attitudes have changed from one generation to the next when it comes to perceptions of nuclear power and how that is impacting this debate . yes, so 1st in response to the variability nuclear plants have excellent ability to go up and down. i mean, for one, it would be a basic safety requirements. so nuclear plants can and do operate and load following. now there's no reason that the nuclear plants should do more load following just because some weather based energy gets more subsidies, that may be good for the owners of the wind and solar plan. but it does not make economic good sense for the country as a whole. so germany is about to discover that, of course, that they're going to back up there when solar with hard coal and ignite, all instead of that should cheat nuclear they had that seems to be an error. but make no mistake. it's not a physical limitation from nuclear to have to move up and down. it's not a problem. so i will say that attitudes are changing around the world towards

nuclear. although it's possible to find many outstanding advocates for nuclear who are from the older generations. it's almost impossible to find young people around the world, including in germany who are active against nuclear. and it's, it's probably because they don't fear it. and they did not learn to fear it, which leaves them curious. so they investigate. once young people and old people get curious about nuclear and investigate, they find that what they've heard is untrue, and they demand more nuclear power. that's why you see countries around europe planning nuclear programs now including multiple countries on the border with germany at plans to add nuclear today from the netherlands to france to poland for the 1st time. that's because of young people being very interested in nuclear and older people who have to provide energy for their publics. choosing nuclear, who barrett is, what is the landscape look like right now when it comes to other european countries,

a demand for nuclear energy, other countries that are planning to expand nuclear energy or build new power plants. you're a very different from conscience psychiatry, mostly relying on on that for climate reasoning, for the long term prices. it's additional our country in europe that can amazing countries have added new capacity and and moving more in that direction. combining it with the new energy they they have and that's why, but difficult to find the european perspective on that kind of the even if you talk, if you could discuss the higher than a project for the big debate between for as many and then and made

based on electricity for me to be labeled as green and sustainable or not from the on the perfect perspective, it's not from, from the, from the concrete of relative become free and therefore, green and sustainable. paul, you're in france, france has been very active in developing nuclear technology and it drives most like tricity from nuclear energy. it's announced plans to build more new reactors. do you think that france is going to go ahead with that? it could be, it could be the problem is of course, is that fonts is also facing a, up to a $100000000000.00 euros bill or mandatory safety upgrade for its current where its current nuclear react to fleet. and in terms of the e p r, the kind of react to that, it says it may build these reactors have been over cost and over time,

everywhere they've, they've been built. so one has to question the, the, the relative wisdom of, of, of, of continuing this. and it has to be said that, i mean, worldwide. i mean, it's worth repeating the 95 percent on you electricity capacity. worldwide this year, a put down has been renewables with nuclear. no. right. so there's a kind of a paradox here. there's a lot of flat for nuclear. is a lot of discourse for nuclear potentially because nuclear is a very strong lobby in or all kinds of programmatic ways. but the reality is, the heavy lifting will be done by the renewable evolution, which is here and now faster, quicker, cheaper, cleaner, paul, let me just follow up with you about one of the incidents that lead to this decision the germany took, of course, the fukushima nuclear disaster you led the european environment agency response to

the fukushima nuclear disaster. how have policies in europe been informed by those findings? michael is a scientist and the word has it that she just took a look at the so called probabilities of the risk. and she said, well look, talk soon and the idea, yea, the essential as to how we can issue a, sorta to head of the leg, which is the nuclear regulatory international says that we are now living on borrowed time times as upper seal in a world that's becoming increasingly unstable, to have these hit targets is deeply problematic. now terms of food ashima, what we've seen is that even in advanced state, the consequences of a real nuclear accident can be catastrophic. and i remember after speaking on the same platform as no to khan, who was the prime minister of japan at the same time we had supper afterwards. and

being astonished when he turned to me and said, look, if the wind was in the wrong direction, we would have lost her here. at mark i see are reacting. i will let you jump in here but, but i also ask one of the thing germany is closure of these plants is also in contrast to the plans of the u. k. government because they're pushing forward with plans for new nuclear projects right now as well. right? yes, all of the g 7 except for germany are emitted to nuclear energy, especially in japan. the voters of japan democratically chose time after chime the most pro nuclear candidate possible that mandate has given the government in japan, the desire to repeatedly and announce expansions of its ambitions in nuclear energy, not just restarting reactors that have been closed since the disaster who became a diet, but adding more. there's a reason why that countries where the great nuclear disasters have occurred, i've learned to not be afraid of new there, for example,

and you're praying. i understand that dr. dorman was quoting the, i am talking about our time, but the he's, that's not actually correct the reactors at zachary z, a nuclear plant are all turned off. the heat level is low, it means that focus, human type disaster is simply not in the cards, but the engineering message has not gotten out to people. why is that? is because quite to the contrary of doctor doff mints claim that the atomic lobby is powerful. the nuclear industry is almost completely incapable of talking plainly and clearly to the public eye in on this program. in part, because nuclear employees are not allowed to talk to the press almost anywhere in the world. and nuclear companies have avoided conversations with the public, wrongly as it turns out, that nuclear lobby in germany was paid off the government to stay silent. and they were not present today. and they scarcely speak the media. that's quite the

opposite of the claims that the some a nuclear lobby as powerful rather than people getting involved, volunteering their time in speaking up. which is the reason why young people around the world are turning in the same direction as the g 7, except for germany. which is a commitment to nuclear appall. i saw you raise your hand. i know you want to jump in. just please be mindful. we just have about a minute and a half left. go ahead it's, it's difficult to know what to say. i mean it aside from essentially piano it's, it's difficult to understand why there's so much discussion about nuclear in terms of policy and, and, and press at the moment. the reality is, is it, it's essentially quite marginal, it's quite dangerous. the issue of waste hasn't been result and a, in an increasing unstable world to, to, to produce more target seems deeply, deeply questionable,

especially because we have alternatives. we have other ways of doing things. nuclear is basically a 20 century technology. it's cost it's sell by date, the future is renewable. all right, but we have run out of time, so we're gonna have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guests, mark nelson barrett as bart and dr. paul dorman, and thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website of 0 dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter or handle is at ha, inside story for me. mm hm. mm hm. jerome and the whole team here life now. ah ah

and here's from al jazeera on the go and me tonight out is there is only a mobile app. is that the, this is where we dissects analyze. i'm fine with from algae. there is a mobile app available in your favorite app. still, just that barrett and tapped are made a new app from out there means that you think that the pursuit of endless economic growth has caused the plan. it is a number of things that threaten our civilization as we know it as an existential threat. otherwise oft, if overhauling entrenched economic systems can help robust the damage, we must go from degenerative systems to regenerating the living world and meet the

businesses balancing the books by making the planet as important as profit that is that traumatic change for society. are we going to collapse, or are we gonna write business critical on al jazeera except $1000000.00 money loans, drink operation for coal. marsha is bigger than the company with financial institutions, regulators and governments complicit with. right. i've described that in a 4 part series al jazeera is investigative unit because on the cover in southern africa, pittsburgh, we control 90 percent of government. once it's falling, it's perfectly brandon. good. upon for on al jazeera south korea's rapidly declining population. trend is starting to show schools are closing and benefits. free subway arrives for senior citizens, are becoming controversial issues. asia as 4th largest economy has been pouring

hundreds of billions of dollars and subsidies and programs to encourage young people to have children. despite this, the average number of babies as job korean women will have fell further below one last tier, 20.78, only 4 percent of women here between the ages of 20 and 30 for you to marriage and having children as essential. i'm worried about a big hole in our national security, as fewer people will be available to serve in the military. with many young south korean struggling with day to day career and financial challenges. analysts are calling for innovative schemes to tackle the problem. ah hello there, i'm this talk you tando with the top stories here on out.