tv Inside Story Al Jazeera April 17, 2023 3:30am-4:00am AST
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expected in grey lynn with a high 27 degrees. we are talking about snow storm warnings on hoko island in japan . look into pick up about 30 centimeters of snow over a 12 hour period. okay. you're up to date that your weather updates soon. ah. the 1st commander of the lebanese army after independence from france, who took over his president at the time of crisis in a deeply divided country. 50 years after his death, a g 0 wu tells the story. edge you had architect of the modern lebanese state soldiers statesman on a j 0 ah. from printers to any mean fees to that he is. army is battling the paramilitary rapid support forces. it's a power struggle that has turned into
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a fierce armed confrontation. but how will this play out and is so don's unity in danger. this is inside story. ah, ah. hello and welcome to the program. i'm getting abigail. the streets of su, done are once again seeing the devastating effects of conflict. political differences are plunging the nation into further instability and threatening to bring full scale war. the latest violence began on saturday after weeks of tension between the army and the powerful paramilitary group, known as the rapid support forces. millions of people in the capital har tomb are at risk water and electricity had been cut in many areas. after years of cruise, protests and political instability. the people of sudan were getting ready for
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a new government. but now those plans are at risk as the threat of an all out civil war looms over the country. the former prime minister, abdullah hum dog who had a crucial role in the fragile democratic transition, is pleading with both sides to stop the fighting. beside it is my 1st message is the general abdel photographer han and the leaders of the student. these military and to mohammed, hum, don delgado, and the leaders of the rapid support forces. the exchange of fire must stop immediately, and the voice of reason must rule. every one will lose, and there is no victory when it's on top of the bodies of our people. all right, let's take a closer look at what's led to this unrest. so the most recent bout of instability emerged in 2019, that's when the military and the rapid support forces ousted the long time leader on modern best year after months of mass protests. 2 years later, they carried out another military take over this time by pushing out prime minister
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abdullah ham dog, who was seen as the face of the transition to democracy. military leaders signed a deal with politicians last year in it. they promised to pave the way towards a civilian led government, unfair elections, but that has yet to happen. a new government deal was scheduled to be signed 2 weeks ago, but disputes about how to integrate the rapid support forces into the army escalated and delayed the process once more. ah, will now bring in all our gas, joining us from khartoum. we have with us muddy. i'm a maddie who is the leader of the national party and a former foreign minister of sudan. deena google spokesperson for the sudanese professional association, a part of the forces of freedom and change coalition. and also the idea of how much i've been one i'm is joining out to the food on base activist. thank you for your time with us on inside story. many, many, many of the 1st to you just earlier this month, your secretary general of the national. my party said that the political process to
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restore a transitional civilian rule has reached its final stages. and we hope that it will be completed in the coming days. so have these latest developments come as a shock to you and what's the official reaction of your policy. thank you very much . and devin and i welcome you and all your followers and your guests. actually, this is came as, as a expected, a fair price, because we knew for the last, at least 6 weeks, things were escalating to the maximum between the 2 heads of the groups. that is, that he's on policies and the rapid, the deployment forces. and though they were both of them committed to the framework agreement, which was also as mentioned by you finalizing in the last 2 steps after we finish the fight for pleasure workshops, ending by the s s r a workshop,
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which also ended in, in a, in a host sideway, let me see. so it was a like, an introduction that things are not going well between the 2. and that would definitely affect the. but if you can, maggie that was only going, what was it in that agreement that was missing or that was wrong with that agreement that got su, done to the point it is out today, because also at the time you're ahead of the political bureau model. madison said that your party was actually hoping to convince bert non signatories to, to come on board on by agreements. so if this actually we, we, we had that 2 obstacles, a descending issue between the 2 and a group. so the heads of the, of the armies are the head of their rapid deployment force and the head of the,
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then the samples. this was a problem at god being there, it is on the security sector reform. and that is about how, what's it, what becomes says they are they reform in day in day security sector. all of that may get over the secret. it says that this was a all the time a, an issue of the debate. and for that there was a technical committee, viola problem, each party to 2nd that and actually before even this said technical committee, already things on the political background. most of them agreed and signed $237.00 principles, food according to which they security said that if on should be done. and this also was signed by all the heads over the significance lying in one of the signatories it. thank you so much. let's bring a doctor on the exam because your group, in fact, was one of the signatories to that agreement. it was really meant to usher a new era, a new political process for the country. what's gone wrong?
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yeah, thank you for the interview. i didn't, no problem is that i, it didn't wanna do it, not wolf committed to the agreement. let's say frankly that they are saying that, but one of the generals was really committed that did that are possible forces general him a deep but the army leader was saying so, but eventually he was not committed to that. that appeared clearly in the west of the sr. we're in the army paper saying a lot of things that again is democratic transition. they were asking for independence, the embedded strategies in coaching, the army strategies, and the strategies they were asking for not to be under the civilian leadership. and they were asking for the command center of the s s r and the, the process in which the d, b, r, will be, and bill them. while i'm simple forces,
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we're committed to their transition a transition. they were committed to the s s r command center will be under this indian leadership and will not be under a militant. and they were committed that the military strategies and i was just, it will be under the civilian leadership. so this is a major, a major difference in their minds, in thinking between the 2 generals, and even when they signed, when they're signing that agreement of 57 principals. general committee say clearly guys, we are signing. but i hope that all will be committed. that is, that is the issue. he knows that a good time will not be committed for that. exactly. and dad's the muslim brotherhood in the army. the people in the army will not make, this will go and that's what happened in the media. a lot of the muslim brotherhood
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people in the army and outside in the media. they were spoiling the agreement. and he was pulling the fire and making more fight between the artist and the army. and they reach what they want by what's happened yesterday at in the fifty's ever yesterday. let me, let me, there was a committee that i say, monday i'm study or that committee with the head of and had it. and there was asking, i'm starting working to deescalate the position. ok, let me just look here right now for a moment. i mean, you're right there for long enough people to come and think it's let me ring and dalia also joining us from her to him. dalia, so not long ago, as we were mentioning a moment ago, the rapid support forces on the military they cooperated together to derail sedans, transition to democracy by spearheading the coo and 2021. they worked to overthrow martin bessie in 2019. so they seem to come together when they absolutely have to
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what was it in your opinion that that got them to this point that we see today. natalie. thank you. first of all, thank you for having me. a cup they came together or they would come together when it suited their own needs. right? now, this isn't the needs of the country and what happened now is, for me, it's a very basic, it's a struggle of power. i was out there and there was a lot of the delays in signing the agreement in the framework kept, you know, kept coming up and it can be pushed back. and i think it was very clear that was a big obstacle standing between it was the merger and the time frame of the merger a know the conditions that kept putting in. and then ago she just kept trying to brush it aside and say this is ok they, they kept trying to keep both the sun but it was very obvious that neither of them was. ringback need to give an inch,
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and neither of them was actually came in with the, with the 70 that they wanted the framework to succeed. and when we, what's been happening since yesterday, it's very clear to me that this is the end game for both of them. and he says, power struggle at this moment, and the ones who are paying the price at the very half the price are the people you keep time here. you mentioned that this is about power less. what's at stake if both parties lose their power? are we talking here about more economic interests? are we talking about the personal ambitions of for behind and how a t or what is that exactly or, or is it both? me. i'm one of the entities, both entities of the are assess where they come from. what they are now and the army, the institute of the army, this is the sudanese army committee, has seen his power and his position grow in the past few years. and this is obviously somewhat of a threat to the army. and don't forget, the army is still very much,
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it's good influence. they're ready to go there. we may and the remnants of that, but she is rule is still very much in today. they would never went away then what was been there and they started to re emerged in the past few weeks. they've become more vocal that become more outspoken. and it's the for the so the power play was between the army and were hans for a lot of people was seen and he couldn't take a position. so he was being pushed by this factor in the army to take a stand. and at the same time he was being pushed by you know, the negotiate is to take a stand and it so it all came to a head. and my name is mary, i'm sank on this on this point specifically about the best sheer era loyalist a medium. there are some reports that suggest that there was internal pressure within the bud hancock from the top ross, not to sign that framework agreement because they sure that
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a new political agreement would, would harm their economic as well as their political power. what do you say to that? well, i think actually things are very complex within this relation. actually for some time, the private or the personal relation unsolved between the 2 men. was the basis of the linkages between their full institutions. but because of so many developments that took place in the last 40 years, they grew separately for many reasons. they got a economic interests and investments, separate a legal, international relations and sentence, political and social a quarter bit support. that's why the death of them developed a either or, or, or, or a state asian went forward. and for that actually i believe the,
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the islamists, and or the actually the n c p where highly at on both of them. and they made sure that a lot of for lack of, of post to the, to the go between the 2. and i believe that that was where both of them made to get into more into enemies. rather than at the sense that the joined them to the extent that if you look at what happened in 2019 because of that, that a correlation between and one and the one hand suddenly comes, is a very important article in the yep, it's support course level which gave the heads of the army, the power to maybe to all, to dismantle that if it's support force. he great because of this, that relationship. now he's because of these development of course, as a disability because of the needs and what is
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a national level army or be or because they couldn't kick the fact that there is a another, a video enormous pull up the muse, eddie poets who come into into their into their tendency. so for that at a local level thrust an offer over and get it. ok, let's bring in doctor dean would've been trust in the process. dr. ana dean because some people say, look, the entire process of the framework agreement was pretty much rush stand and it was ad hoc and the international community was really just hoping to wrap it up really quickly. so that, so that, you know, they can celebrate the signing off a new agreement. to what extent do you think that the actual political process itself accelerate this confrontation between the rapid support forces and the army? no, it, it didn't. it didn't. let's be cranking this be cranking. yeah. the cool guy. how i wish are eager for bowen. but gordon guy said that he is with the political
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process. the other guys he yeah, he did process, but in his way is in not in it. why not the way that the market should be there? there is no, they cannot have democracy. the army can not have democracy as they like. they want independence from the civilian leadership. they want, as are to be away from the civilian leadership, to be under command. it cannot be like this, it cannot be, there is no democracy are such they want. they can have such like a hearing or different centers of power. but there is no democracy. this is the main concept is the main issue. yeah. maybe yes, i can say that one of them have ego or power, but maybe i met you were dis, eagerness for our active to transition. he want to come by a civilian or like leadership by elections maybe. but right now he's
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accepting. there is this that ended in transition, but behind is not accepting. there it's, it's either would the essence of a democratic transition under principles right now. and what might have made a week. but if we fast forward to happening right now, dr. ala, at the, in both sides, this is what, this is the language that's coming out from both sides. you have my teeth, allow me, you have hamlet. hamid's, in the military, calling for the dismantling of a quote, a rebellious militia. and then you have him at t saying that the armed forces, chief, that is but hon is a criminal. so what does this language actually signal to you in terms of and terms of what happens next and how long this is going to continue with we, we would, we would as, as, as a political over act like activists. or they could see all the parties who signed the premium because even we are bulls. we are always saying that we need a one national army. we did good inpatient or
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a national adult thing. this was not there, neither in the army. 09 that in the militia. so that was the essence of the d. d r . who's was accepting this d d r in the way that it would be was therapy support for to speaking. frankie, the army was not ok. and that was because the problem, because the muslim brotherhood were much deep inside the army and the people inside the army like a banshee writing job and i so did with it i get is different with a demon. and again, the original courses that was clearly shown when cut back, he started to speak in loud in godaddy about the framework agreement and about so on, so on. so why he was a quite for a long time. i think these last little would assist on that. let me bring in money on that would inside the army really a lot, let me bring in money. i'm for many of you can comment, you can comment on what dr. dean is saying, but i also just want to ask you to give us a feel off of what it's actually like being in hard to right now and what people
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are are feeling and what they're saying. my 1st question is dr. to dr. i know where, where, where do we go from here? i mean, we've reached the point where there's actually fighting in the, in the streets of the capital. so where do we go, you know, calling about hon a criminal and for hon. designated the are a step as i'm in the show and i'll call them in the show is not good news for us to denise. so where do we go from here? we've been all of us have been stuck at home. we don't know what's happening outside. we hear these, the numbers of casualties of those who are injured, those have been killed. we know nothing of what is happening. and we put our faith in the politicians in the parties in the negotiate to get us out of the quagmire. but if anything they pushed us back further down in this quagmire. so my question to you, mr. or mrs. many m and a doctor? i don't. where do we go from here? what to say? what's next one to have. let her with the level,
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are you money on it already? i was go ahead where, where, where the, the, the, or the question, this is a very serious thing with happen is unprecedented. this is it, it, it is so in response to what it is. so and accept the one that our, our, me, it, it's, it's own cities and its own civilians. and now they are taking it to the prison inside the neighborhoods. now almost every house they have a gun shops at the, at the windows. so many people live inside their homes. we are stuck for the last that the 8 or more i was not having any supplies. and they like this, it, these out. we are out of the guys for, for even the people who have a genetic does not loan. it is amenities and people so many people to look into it for so many people to stuck in the seats. there is no safe. i have been flying all day to have a way to save a pass through the i see i see and this or that is it,
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it listen with there is support force and a soft at least i could get the 3 of them soft and the i shall see, and then it be and as with any that it costs, but i couldn't have access to that up. is support, wants to save it to, to provide for some routes. actually the problem is that 80 what has happened knowing? so don, is unprecedented. i kind of want, how can i go about this, somebody else? let me just ask you this because there is diplomatic pressure. we understand there have been phone calls that have been made to, to both calm. since we've done a u. s. sector stay, it has released the statement that un secretary general. will this diplomatic process make any ladies at the she writes, that is a p a he a meeting today to one or that is that you in security comes in, let the unless we, the sudanese, see that the development in this and we and you fight our false, again, he said this, what happened is an accept the one having both we can look compared to these
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policies to any of that. of course we, that's why it was one of the essence of the i want to put it. an operation is to have one so then is omni that is proficient and that is national. so that's why it was thought of, i would go for this epidemic a level petition to have mitigate, of the, of the peace agreement malicious and over. they over that up. it's ok. let's bring in this room. and i just because we're going to be running out of time, so you have dr on a do not steps next time. so who can help you this? what about countries that have regional interests in? and so don, for example, a country like egypt, saudi arabia, the united arab emirates. this is a question for the question that the countries in the region have 2 positions. either will know the position of a friendship that they want to sold. and the issue and they want to do, we're going to transition back into done. and there is other countries that they
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don't want to to touch and bought is to dan. and they want the conflict or they want the item you did. and the 2nd one is egypt, definitely it said frankly, egypt was boiling the agreement. your position was bad for that favorite agreement . it was, it was bad for a negative for the 40 different courses. we are looking for an atom leadership. they are not looking for a leadership, they are not interested in democratic transition. and like saudi arabia, they were a and other leaders and international committee. and egypt try to spoil the agreement was much and much, much for with the leading of them. but you know, here and with the meeting, that was our guys, the title for the credit quotation. and they came with a statement that the i, when i done it, i am a doctor and i don't you see
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the oldest is social is also on our army to stand up and be an independent and be a source that they work for. the country are army continue, see, for the past 3040 years has always bowed down and follow the needs of other parties, you know, regional parties and we didn't met a country, it has never stood up for us. and what's happening right now, a woman and oh, it's crucial that night that the army does work here and i don't people live in the army you. ready i mean, it is also, i me, i'm neither the media and the army. i have the negatives, and i want you to be in again, either shoot, i ok, let me just jump in there because we are running out of time. i just want to get
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more of a sense of what's happening right now. on the grounds because there are reports, i'll ask you, i'll ask you this modem if you may know the fighting, in fact is dalia, excuse me, fighting is not confirmed to the capital. the classes we understand now are in the northern province there in doug food region. ports are done on the red sea. these are porous borders, aren't they? so do they risk becoming floss points? do you think for a white or conflict? how dangerous is this? well, i just wrote a report or a post saying that chad has read for its board is because they're afraid of a spill over from the from doc forwarding to their borders. and i spoke to family in port sedan and they said yesterday was really bad. but today to pick calmer, but in the forty's not. com. i mean, if we think cartoon the bad, you're talking about a state that is the size of western western european countries and a know, so that is a big country that we have no set borders. our board is like,
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you said are very porous. so there is not to be of a spill or effect. so what do we do then? and the same thing with what happened with that, you know, with the capture of the egyptian soldiers, what is egypt go? what's egypt reaction is going to be, these are their soldiers. they were here for john's military jewels. they've been captured. what's going to happen? i think we need to get away from all the politics. talk like this person failed with this person. is it not? and just trying to think practical and try to think, what can we do? what steps can we take right now to put an end to what's happening to the escalade? because we can hear the final word on that. i'll give you the final word on that because we did hear from dr. dean and maria on that. but what do you think needs to be done next? is it the diplomatic pressure that can help? well, i think diplomacy is not going to work. i think basically they need to yeah, those who have interest and those who have a way where they timothy or han to really step up. and i think this is where the
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role of the likes of the the choice. good. the usa and the likes of the saudi government and the u. e in egypt re otherwise it's going to come to their board is i don't think it was any, any more problems on their board. does they have enough problems of their own? they don't need to have another order issue that the geo political stress stress, the location of sudan means it can affect that if you will be on the one hand is arethia. something needs to be done and they need to really step up. i'm tired of all these condemnation statements coming out from the likes of the you and the u. s . foreign, a foreign ministry in the u. k. they're useless. they do nothing. we need actually need somebody to step up, pull back these 2 men deescalate and then we take it from there because what happening right now, it does not bode well for the near future. ok, we'll have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us. money, i'm and mad the ana dino. go go daddy. i'm how my dad been hambury. really
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appreciate your time. thanks for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. during the conversation on twitter handle is edging inside story from myself and the entire team. thanks for watching. bye bye for now. ah. and the climate has changed every year for millions a year, decades of talk. but little action is all about distract create confusion to crate,
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