east coast of tanza india. so that's where the worst of the rain will fall in sap rain. but the wild fires threat that we've got across south africa in particular for the northern cape, the western and the eastern cape provinces. it is hot, dry and windy here on tuesday soon a bit. ah, but al jazeera sets the stage 3 elephant here, 5 others. i don't know. i have been deployed to faith, just one enemy global experts in discussing the idea of being to your current and been established in democracy. it was bound to explore an abundance of world class programming of with beliefs will need to ask impacts designed to inform, motivate, and inspire. you are now to sierra o, the u. s. wants to deepen its relations with vietnam. the once warring countries

already share strong trading ties, closer, political and military cooperation. however, presenting oil with a difficult balancing act wise washington, wooing vietnam. this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm debbie, you navigate them. they were once at war, and now 50 years after american forces pulled out a saigon. washington continues to build closer ties with vietnam. it's located in one of the world's most contest. the geopolitical hotspots with increasing military and naval competition between the u. s. and china, not least over taiwan, washington has been seeking to increase its influence in the area by forging new alliances against china. so the u. s. sector stayed anthony blinking has been in

hanoi for talks with prime minister pam, and chin and other leaders. his trip came just after the 50th anniversary of america's withdrawal of combat forces from south vietnam and the end of its direct military involvement in the vietnam war. lincoln infused about a new era of corporation without mentioning vietnam's, giant neighbor china. i also focused on how our countries can advance a free and open indo pacific one that is a piece and grounded in respect to the rules based international order. when we talk about free and open, we mean country's being free to choose their own path and their own partners. and their problems will be dealt with openly. rules will be reached transparently and applied fairly and goods ideas and people will flow freely across land. the seas, the skies in cyberspace. while for 20 years, the u. s. was at war with north vietnam. the legacy of the conflict linger is on

with chemical agents, and unexploded bombs still causing illness and injury. estimate very, but at least 1300000 people were killed. since then, there's been a remarkable transformation and ties driven by business trade between the 2 countries has grown to hundredfold. since diplomatic normalization was achieved in 1995 last year, total trading goods exceeded $138000000000.00 with vietnam being among america's top 10 largest trading partners. the u. s. is vietnam's number one export markets altogether. vietnam posted a $116000000000.00 trade surplus with the us led by shipments of goods like electronics, clothing, and footwear. while the ruling communist party holds unchallenged political control in the country, and it's been sharply criticized by international organizations over its human

rights records. human rights watch calls that dire and virtually all areas. and an amnesty international report stated, independent journalist activist religious practitioners and other government critics were arrested and charged under repressive laws. human rights defenders were subjected to widespread harassment, digital surveillance, arbitrary arrest and politically motivated prosecution, torture, and other ill treatment continued to be reported at an alarming rate. well this is something lincoln was challenged about in 100 with regard to human rights and the relationship that, that we have. this is a conversation that we regularly engaging. and as we've, we said to our counterparts, it's very important that we continue to speak directly openly, candidly about our concerns. and that's exactly exactly what we do. ah, to discuss all of this,

i'm joined by our guest from singapore is strong giant who's an associate professor political science at the national university in singapore. he's also a non resident fellow at carnegie china from colchester in the u. k. were joined by natasha lind star, who's the deputy dean of education in the department of government at the university of essex. natasha is also a u. s. foreign policy specialist. joining us from sol is donald kirk, who's a veteran correspondence, an author of whose covered asia and v. he's also covered asia and vietnam, extensively. welcome to you all. thanks so much for your time. donald kirk. so a vietnam has been on the recent itineraries of senior officials or the biden administration like the vice president, like the defense secretary. but how significant is this visit by blinkin and why now? why did it streaming significant? clearly, vietnam was to get a law with both china, the media and your neighbor. and with the united states,

as a you, as against china, vietnam, as some specific problems with china over over who's controlling to see out there over over drilling for oil and natural gas under the water. and also there are some islands that were very much like to recover, including the power cells, which one's the enemy's islands mistaken by china, just just before the end of the vietnam war. so there are a lot of issues that the and united states can, can put on an appearance of supporting vietnam and brabs, giving them some leverage and negotiations with china. i should add mr. blanket while he was in and i participated in the groundbreaking for

construction of a huge new american embassy. and i, i think the damage is going to cost well over a $1000000000.00 us dollars, and it'll take a few years to build it. but it's an immense embassy that they're building their, in other words, is a huge american presence in this. all right, all right, well, so i was asking about that if i'm bollock lee. and what does this tell us? tell us symbolically and the price of that embassy. in fact, is $1200000000.00. so you're right. it's well over a 1000000000, right? this is actually the america's placing such addresses on it as a lot to do, not just with it now, but obviously with america's policy about china. it's an american set up. well, what amounts to policy of containment? certainly the chinese think it's a policy of containment against china, and they say vietnam as fitting in with this policy, not did they, not that vietnam is going to be an enemy of china. vietnam cannot afford to

consider being an enemy of the, of a huge and northern neighbor. but it's been, i'm can certainly play the us against china. i can certainly call upon the us not only for trade as was pointed out, huge trade, but also for a lot of support, a loan to romantic support on very sensitive issues. yeah. ok. all important points you've raised, which will, which will drill down to and just on the 1st let me bring in natasha from the u. k . what do you think about this visit? what does the timing if it signal to you about what the us is looking to get out of this? well, i would agree with what had already been said that the u. s. is trying to get closer to vietnam to upgrade the relationship as a way of countering china's, from the us perspective, increasing assertiveness or aggressiveness in the region and just globally. so the

u. s. is hoping that this relationship is going to get stronger, both with security issues, and they are trying to discuss sending over ships for the, the coast guard in vietnam and vietnam. and previously, most of the vessels from russia and as the, and i'm trying to rely less on russia us is trying to come in there know where to start. going to get passed by lawmakers with us is also trying to increase it bilateral economic ties and achieve vietnam as a really important piece to it's in the pacific strategy of countering china and trying to convince vietnam that china is assertiveness in the south trying to seed poses a threat to vietnam and the bilateral trade ties are really important and already been mentioned. vietnam exports most of its goods to the us. it's number one, export or it goes to the u. s. over 109000000000 worth of goods. and wal officially,

china is vietnam's biggest trading partner, and that's really because the vietnam is importing many chinese good. so there are important economic relationships with, with both countries. but i think for vietnam, they don't want to antagonize china. it's geographically too close to china. there's a long history with china, and so they don't want to be too open about whatever role they might be playing in in the u. s. is efforts to, to counter writing, trying to power. right. ok. and natasha, you were mentioning a moment ago, the upgrade and relationships, the u. s. has been pushing for for a boost in relations with vietnam to what's called a strategic partnership. how likely is that to happen now? so we don't have word if this has happened yet after this recent meeting, i think the u. s. is trying to push for this and it's possible that biden will make an official visit to vietnam in july. so from the us perspective,

they definitely want this, but as i already mentioned from vietnam perspective, really want to increase some of the security and economic ties that they have with, with the us just just for their own pragmatic reasons, rational reasons that it may benefit them they have to be very careful about anything that they do that could upset they jing, so they don't want to be too open or out worried about this. so i don't know if this is going to be something that is official officially declared by both countries. okay. and so we've been hearing that us officials are reluctant to describe this visit or, or really any visit to asia in terms of china preferring instead to discuss the importance of improving bilateral ties. but from where you sit, how much do you think china is actually the focus here? so i think china is part of the consideration, but i don't think it's all the consideration. so for the u. s, i think it's pretty important for them to keep a presence in the region. they have

a lot of economic interest as we've talked about. they also invest very significantly in se, asia and for se, asia. it also provides a vital link between point west and to the u. s. allies in japan and south korea. so for, for those reasons, i think the u. s. would like to maintain a robust presence. they are concerned that chinese efforts to trying to box them out of the region. so i think that's the sort of background the, the consideration though for not actually mentioning china the or friend is because these relationships, the idea of keeping the u. s. presence in southeast asia has to do with, you know, creating a sense that the bilateral relationships, the multilateral relationships in southeast asia matter in and of themselves. they are not just derivative of the p r c. and the not just derivative of competition with the p r c. and i think that's something that regional states will sort of take some, some heart from. i think the last,

this is part of the lesson from past us engagement with se, asia. i think many sites in states, vietnam included don't like the fact that, you know, they are sort of secondary, their instrumental to larger u. s. interest elsewhere. and so to be able to maintain and nurture that corporation, the u. s. has to emphasize that the relationship has a quality of its own. and certainly i think the regional states like vietnam have an interest in further engagement. and they have right now how much of a difficult balancing act as this and cooperating with with washington. but at the same time, as has been alluded to without upsetting beijing, so it's, it's going to be difficult, but being, as many people seem to have to have been pretty briskly recently. so that's the important of not upsetting beijing. but i would also throw in that there's a certain domestic element, governments that are in disputes with the p r c. vietnam looms larger. i mean they have a domestic sentiment that i think will punish their leaders if they seem to be caving

in. so working with us is one way to square that. so their multi dimensions to this relationship that we should not forget. and i think sometimes looking from the outside in the domestic dimensions, again a little bit forgotten. let's talk about the domestic dimensions of donald kirk. i mean, you've covered for so long donald, how do you think that the, the public actually view the united states and also this relationship with the u. s . will, in my return via a for a lot of other americans are good back. there are always surprised by the, by the affection, if you can believe it, that many via the main field for the united states you don't encounter, you know, anti americanism or derisive remarks. of course, if you look hard enough, i'm sure you could find them. but basically, people are quite friendly and quite courtesy, courteous toward americans. i'm not quite sure if i don't understand why i,

since it was a terrible war which the americans were to blame for ongoing problems. we're talking about the in the agent orange issue, where, which continues to maim and stuff the lives of many people in the region where agent orange was dropped it in a misbegotten effort to, to kill the jungle and expose. i think the troops vietnamese comment is north vietnamese troops. we call them i go back to that old war time term where there was north vietnam and south vietnam. we don't say north vietnam and south vietnam. we just say vietnam these days. but if you were there during the war, was north vietnam and south vietnam. ok. so now to many rural favor expanded ties with the u. s. do you think? i think i think they do, they were expanded,

dies with the us. and i think that for some of those there during the war for any american vietnam can be quite a pleasant place to visit. now, there may be difficult isn't draining to go to issues. there are with every country . we have a lot of difficulties with trade negotiations with allied countries. not much less for one issue that i should mention here is that the us very much wants to keep the south china sea and over to water. what china claims as our china is chinese and they're, they're territory. vietnam is of course on the south china sea. and the u. s. by this relationship with vietnam. it is showing that it wants very much supports the openness of the south china sea, which would include vietnam's rise to do so as it was in the south china sea, including oil and gas exploration. so that's the social and

very important on the right side of the buildings, which also has problems with china and the south china sea were seen on it with which the united states is conducting a war games right now. and, and very much supporting philippines glen to the south china sea. so all that fits into an end to what the united states is doing, you know, on that point, particularly on the south china sea. as donald was mentioning, the u. s. has military bases in the philippines. it's both 3rd military corporation with taiwan to what extent is there real comprehensive maritime security corporation right now between washington and hanoi, natasha. and, and where do you see that heading to i think we already mentioned a little bit that there are concerns with china's increasing assertiveness about the south china sea. and also its increasing aggressiveness with taiwan

in would, would china take action in taiwan. and, and that's concerning to, to not just the u. s. and taiwan but also to other countries in the region including vietnam. and so that really drives you know, home. they need to have a little bit more security cooperation taking place there. but of course, like i said, they need to tread carefully here with anything that they do on the security front because that could escalate things. the china further as it doesn't want the us to increase it. sphere of influence or influence in the area. it's trying to push us out and assert itself more clearly. so i think there's avenues here for more security cooperation. but like i said it's, it's quite a tight road. it's a very delicate, tight road here. and, and i think from vietnam's perspective, they're just trying to do or to rational increase,

increasing economic ties. this all makes sense. maybe increasing access to some weapons so that they can diversify themselves away from russia. but again, doing so in a way that, that doesn't make things worse or antagonize their relationship with beijing. ok, and what do you think? could there be blow back from beijing of vietnam? gets too close to the u. s. when it comes to issues off security and military corporation. sure, i think our vision has shown itself to be quite willing to put pressure on and south east asian neighbors, vietnam included. so there's recently been more activity in terms of the p r. c. doing more exploration right off vietnam's coast. i've been, i'm doesn't like that. you know, that's a sort of long going to speed the p r. c obviously has a lot more capabilities that could bring to bear and vietnam. that's one reason why vietnam is trying to be very careful. but apart from the maritime space, i think of vietnam is also very mindful that the me call river, which a lot of people that depend on for the likelihood the up upstream at runs from the

p c and p r c. building. there has sort of a, has really affected the ecosystem and that sort of downstream environment. so one of the concerns that vietnam also has is that if they get into a really tough situation with the p r c, there are several lever that the p r c could use. this would include trade, that's going to include the military stuff of the maritime domain, but also stuff that's done on the me kong upstream of the me call river. so that's why i think they probably want to trade very carefully. they probably would like the additional assurance of have being able to work with us, but they will do so carefully and quietly in ways to avoid any unnecessary friction with the p r c. and ha ha, under all the obama administration, back in 2011, the former president had announced the pivot to asia policy, which i'm sure you're very much aware of to, to deepen america. strategic footprint across the asia pacific and vietnam stood

out as a very important country today. if you fast forward to today 2023, what do you think the u. s. a strategy is for the region as it's shifted much from, from what obama had set out to do. well, i mean, i think the u. s. has continued to, to try to strengthen their ties with asia and seeing that the level of bilateral trade with different countries in asia has increased and the u. s. is trying to increase its present. i think that actually the thing that has changed more so than what the u. s. behavior has been china's behavior. the china has become much more assertive, not just in asia, but in latin america and africa as well. and has wanted to kind of push the u. s. out. so we see, well, the u. s. has been increasing, you know, it's, it's bilateral trade ties with a lot of these countries and trying to work through regional organizations and trying to create a block against china. i don't see its behavior changing that much from the obama

administration, but more so we're seeing a much more confident and assertive china on the world stage. donald, would you say the vietnam is foreign policy? can be somewhat limited due to its sheer proximity to china that vietnam will, will always be keen to keep relations, whether it's nor their neighbor are sort of a level playing field. well, i have to ask to be very concerned about joining the chinese vietnamese relationship goes deep, deep in the region into their history. and obviously they, they want to stand up against china, but they don't want to infuriate join either. just getting back to the point they were about to cough. just getting back to the point that was

discussed a minute ago. the battle lines i had state used the word battle line, let's say the line, the confrontation between the us, china as much sharpened in recent years. there's there a couple of, was the alliance, is there not quite alliances? there's a quad floor in good in india, japan, u. s. u k. a quad for which is very much of an anti chinese grouping. l can be seen, is that a chinese grouping and is also august a u. k, u s. the australian. what is it a u, a u k u s alliance, which, which also can be seen very much, is an anti chinese grouping. certainly the chinese see it that way. so i would say that since the bomb administration,

the sense the confrontation has deepened and it was a little blurry while during the above administration. but it's now quite sharply defined. are getting, getting more sharply defined. right. and what about donald when it is when it comes to the issue of the offer we were mentioning russia moments ago, and specifically the war and ukraine? because what we found recently was that vietnam did not vote when it comes to un general assembly resolutions. vietnam did not vote with the west condemning rush as invasion of ukraine. so what do you think of that? i mean, there must be growing pressure on vietnam from the west, and particularly from the united states aside with them on the ukrainian issue. are you surprised that vietnam is playing a balancing act here? no, i wouldn't be surprised by that date. there's no reason to vietnam to do or condemn the russians in ukraine. what, what was it? what's your grey mean to vietnam?

and they have every reason to want to remain is on after he's in terms, if not quite good terms with russia. so there's no reason for them to condemn the russian invasion. and your grand just isn't just really they can see it is not really you their, their immediate concern. and why should they get involved? well, let's talk while i was in, and just for the sake of time, i'll jump in there. and i mean, how important is the russian vietnamese relationship when it comes to pets a, when, when it comes to sort of a trade issues, oil and gas issues. ok, so i think our own yes, certainly there is a degree of trade with between vietnam and, and russia. it's not as obviously not as significant as the us. but what is quite key for vietnam. we mentioned this earlier in the show is that vietnam still is quite dependent on russian technology and russian equipment for its military. right

. so it's ability to stand up to china, its ability to maintain its presence on the south. china sea is trying to wean away from that, but you know that these are, it's not just the platforms of the whole systems, the logistic tail, the maintenance, the skills. so while there are some us, you know, slight effort, there's some effort to sort of taken technologies from elsewhere. south korea, there's a coast guard cutter from the u. s. that whole movement, you know, it's going to be very long incoming. and so the vietnamese at this point in time, don't really don't want to upset moscow because they have their concerns there too . but what i think is also quite interesting is after the un books, vietnamese officials, especially military officials, were actually on vietnamese tv, apparently explaining how they a vote not with you and doesn't mean that they accept the correctness of an invasion and occupation of another country. they and they sort of brought up their own history to that effect. so i think a lot of what we're seeing is really the difficult and an easy position that

vietnam is faced with and their efforts to really navigate through the choppy waters that have been created watching our war. ok, we just have about one minute left of the program. natasha. end with you. and i wanted to ask you about human rights become a human rights organizations do criticize vietnam for its human rights record. we saw secretary of state lincoln, allude to it in his press conference, is this something that the u. s. is going to turn a blind eye to? well, i think you're going to see from us different things that they say openly and diplomatically when they're trying to pursue vietnam as an important trade partner. and then what might happen if they try to send over ships. lawmakers may block that on human rights grounds. so i mean the u. s. is not just one model of entity. of course, there is a lot of different groups trying to put human rights front and center. and then there are the diplomatic needs, which may trump at this moment, whatever the needs are to, to,

to clarify their human rights agenda. and i think what will probably be more important is trying to push things forward economically. because vietnam, as we've already mentioned, is so important to us. it's an effort to counter chinese growing power. all right, we'll have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us. strong joy in natasha lynn state and donald kirk. we appreciate your time. thanks for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. so in the conversation on twitter or handle is a insight story from myself and the whole team ins. alpha, thanks for watching with ah,

it's a $1000000000.00 money, no drink operation for coal. marsha is bigger than the company with financial institutions, regulators and governments complicit about with right. i've described that in a 4 part series. algio 0 is investigative unit because under cover in southern africa, pittsburgh, we control 90 percent. it was done. and once it's been calling, it's perfectly brand new, good pot, full on al jazeera. this is an enormous emergency for literally billions of the world's population earth rise explores how different fades across the globe are rallying communities. we are clearly focus caretaker's beer in a mission to rebuild our broken relationship with the planet. if we can mobilize

that huge proportion of the world's population, then we've got some growth leverage. the scale believing in change on al jazeera, here's from al jazeera on the go and me tonight out is there is only a mobile app, is that this is where we dissect online to find what's going on. i guess going from out there is a mobile app available in your favorite apps to get that for it and tapped are made and you up from al jazeera new at you think it, it ah ah.