north west indies, some sherry rain, but on the whole it's been quite hot recent. and if you look at places like calcutta, $41.00 degrees that is higher than it should be. the average is times a year. these low enough for this to be at least an alert. he's got a warning for the next 3 days. ah, a meeting of minds. it's list steadly word freedom which has used to cover so many different things. the fan yoga, mainstream economics. if that happens in the other profession, they will be fired. yeah. will not just fire, they double to prison. musical innovative brian ino meets renowned economist hygiene chang. part one. i see a lot of hope. i see a lot of experiments going on in the studio. b unscripted on al jazeera, the us to ones to deepen its relations with vietnam. the once warren countries already share strong trading ties, closer political and military cooperation,

however, presented with a difficult balancing act wise washington, wooing vietnam. this is inside story. ah, ah, hello and welcome to the program. i'm daring obligate. and they were once at war. and now, 50 years after american forces pulled out, a saigon, washington continues to build closer ties with vietnam. it's located in one of the world's most contested geopolitical hotspots with increasing military and naval competition. between the u. s. and china, not least over taiwan. washington has been seeking to increase its influence in the area by forging new alliances against china. so the u. s. sector stayed. anthony

lincoln has been in hanoi for talks with prime minister, pam, and chin and other leaders. his trip came just after the 50th anniversary of america's withdrawal of combat forces from south vietnam and the end of its direct military involvement in the vietnam war. blinking infused about a new era of cooperation without mentioning vietnam's, giant neighbor china. i also focused on our countries can advance a free and open indo pacific one that is a piece and grounded in respect to the rules based international order. when we talk about free and open, we mean country's being free to choose their own path and their own partners. and their problems will be dealt with openly. rules will be reached transparently and applied fairly and goods ideas and people will flow freely across land. the seas, the skies in cyberspace, or for 20 years the u. s. was at war with north vietnam. the legacy of the conflict

linger is on with chemical agents, and unexploded bombs still causing illness and injury. estimate very, but at least 1300000 people were killed. since then, there's been a remarkable transformation and ties driven by business trade between the 2 countries has grown to hundredfold. since diplomatic normalization was achieved in 1995 last year, a total trade in goods exceeded $138000000000.00 with vietnam being among america's top 10 largest trading partners. the us is vietnam's number one, export markets altogether. vietnam posted $116000000000.00 trade surplus with the us led by shipments of goods like electronics, clothing, and footwear. while the ruling communist party holds unchallenged political control in the country, and it's been sharply criticized by international organizations over its human rights records. human rights watch calls that dire and virtually all areas. and an

amnesty international report stated, independent journalists, activists, religious practitioners, and other government critics were arrested and charged under repressive laws. human rights defenders were subjected to widespread harassment, digital surveillance, arbitrary arrest and politically motivated prosecution, torture and other ill treatment continues to be reported at an alarming rate. well this is something blinking was challenged about in hanoi with regard to human rights and the relationship that, that we have. this is a conversation that we regularly engaging. and as we've, we said to our counterparts, it's very important that we continue to speak directly openly, candidly about our concerns. and that's exactly exactly what we do. ah, to discuss all of this,

i'm joined by our guest from singapore is strong giant who's an associate professor political science at the national university in singapore. he's also a non resident fellow at carnegie china from colchester in the u. k. were joined by natasha lind, staff, who's the deputy dean of education, and the department of government at the university of essex. natasha is also a u. s. foreign policy specialist. joining us from sol is donald kirk, who's a veteran correspondence, an author of whose covered asia and v. he's also covered asia and vietnam, extensively. welcome to you all. thanks so much for your time. donald kirk. so a vietnam has been on the recent itineraries of senior officials or the biden administration like the vice president, like the defense secretary. but how significant is this visit by blinkin and why now? well, i think it's extremely significant. clearly, vietnam was just to get a law with both china,

the media and your neighbor. and with the united states, in a sense, be a dog like you, as against china, vietnam, as some specific problems with china over over who's controlling the see out there over over drilling for oil and natural gas under the water. and also there's some islands that were very much like to recover, including the power cells, which ones vietnamese islands mistaken by china, just just before the end of the vietnam war. so there are a lot of issues that the and united states can, can put on an appearance of supporting vietnam and brabs giving b. and i was in the leverage and negotiations with china. i should add mr. blanket while he was in, and i participated in the groundbreaking for construction of

a huge new american embassy. and i think the damage is going to cost well over a $1000000000.00 us dollars. and, you know, take a few years to build that. but it's an immense embassy that they're building their, in other words, is a huge american presence in this as asking about that different ball a cli, any. what does this tell us? tell us involved in the price of that embassy? in fact, is $1200000000.00. so you're right. it's well over a 1000000000, right. the fact that america is placing such addresses on it as a lot to do, not just with it now, but obviously with america's policy about china. it's an american set up well, what it amounts to in policy of containment. certainly the chinese think it's a policy of containment against china. and they say vietnam as a fitting in with this policy, not did they, not that vietnam is going to be an enemy of china. vietnam cannot afford to

consider being in an enemy of the, of a huge and northern neighbor. but it's vietnam can certainly play the u. s. against china. i can certainly fall upon the u. s. not only for trade as was pointed out, huge trade, but also for a lot of support. a lot of dramatic support on very sensitive issues. yeah. ok. all important points you've raised, which will, which will drill down to and just about the 1st let me bring in natasha from the u . k. what do you think about this visit? what does the timing if it signal to you about what the u. s. is looking to get out of this thing. well, i agree with what had already been said that the u. s. is trying to get closer to vietnam to upgrade the relationship as a way of countering china's from us perspective, increasing assertiveness or aggressiveness in the region. and just globally,

so the u. s. is hoping that this relationship is going to get stronger both with security issues and they are trying to, you know, at least discuss sending over ships for the coast guard in vietnam and been previously. but most of its vessels from russia and as being, i'm trying to rely less on russia us is trying to come in there. no word if that's going to get passed by lawmakers with us is also trying to increase it by lateral economic ties. and it's c vietnam as a really important piece to it's in a pacific strategy of carrying china, it's trying to condense vietnam, that china's assertiveness in the south china sea poses a threat to vietnam. and that these bilateral trade ties are really important, as i'd already been mentioned, vietnam exports most of its goods to the u. s. it's number one export or it goes to the u. s. a 109000000000 worth of goods. and wal officially,

china is vietnam's biggest trading partner. and that's really because vietnam is importing many chinese goods. so there are important economic relationships with both countries. but i think for vietnam, they don't want to antagonize china. it's geographically too close to china. there's a long history with china, and so they don't want to be too open about whatever role they might be playing in in the u. s. is efforts to, to counter writing. china is power. ok and natasha, you were mentioning a moment ago, the upgrade and relationships, the u. s. has been pushing for for a boost in relations with vietnam to what's called a strategic partnership. how likely is that to happen now? so we don't have word if this has happened yet after this recent meeting. i think the us is trying to push for this and it's possible that biden will make an official visit to vietnam in july. so from the us perspective,

they definitely want this. but as i already mentioned from vietnam perspective, really want to increase some of the security and economic ties that they have with, with us just just for their own pragmatic reasons, rational reasons that it may benefit them. they have to be very careful about anything that they do that could upset ging, so they don't want to be too open or out worried about this. so i don't know if this is going to be something that is official officially declared by both countries. okay. and so we've been hearing that us officials are reluctant to describe this visit or, or really any visit to asia in terms of china preferring instead to discuss the importance of improving bilateral ties. but from where you sit, how much do you think china is actually the focus here? so i think china is part of the consideration, but i don't think it's all the consideration. so for the u. s, i think it's pretty important for them to keep a presence in the region. they have

a lot of economic interest as we've talked about. they also invest break significantly in se, asia and for se, asia. it also provides a vital link between point west and to the u. s. allies in japan and south korea. so for, for those reasons, i think the u. s. would like to maintain a robust presence. they are concerned that chinese efforts to trying to box them out of the region. so i think that's the sort of background the, the consideration though for not actually mentioning trying to it is because these relationships, the idea of keeping the u. s. presence in southeast asia has to do with, you know, creating a sense that the bilateral relationships, the multilateral relationships in southeast asia matter in and of themselves. they are not just derivative of the p r c. and the not just derivative of competition with the p r c. and i think that's something that regional states will sort of take some, some hard from i think the last,

this is part of the lesson from past us engagement with se, asia. i think many sites in states, vietnam included, don't like the fact that, you know, they are sort of secondary, their instrumental to larger us interest elsewhere. and so to be able to maintain and nurture that corporation, the u. s. has to emphasize that the relationship has a quality of its own. and certainly i think the regional states like vietnam have an interest and further engagement. and they have right now how much of a difficult balancing act as this and cooperating with washington. but at the same time, as has been alluded to without upsetting beijing, so it's, it's going to be difficult. beijing, as many people seem to have been pretty briskly recently. so that's the importance of not upsetting beijing, but i would also throw in that there's a certain domestic element, governments that are in disputes with the p r c. vietnam looms larger. i mean, they have a domestic sentiment that i think will punish their leaders if they seem to be

caving in. so working with us is one way to square that. so their multi dimensions to this relationship that we should not forget. and i think sometimes looking from the outside in the domestic dimensions, again, a little bit forgotten. let's talk about the domestic dimensions with donald kirk. i mean, you've covered for so long donald, how do you think that the, the public actually view the united states and also this relationship with the u. s . will, in my return visit to vietnam, a lot of other americans are good back. there are always surprised by the, by the affection, if you can believe it, that many via the amazed field for the united states. you don't encounter americanism or derisive remarks. of course, if you look hard enough, i'm sure you could find them. but basically, people are quite friendly and quite courtesy, courteous toward americans. i'm not quite sure if i don't understand why i,

since it was a terrible ward, which the americans were to blame for ongoing problems. we're talking about the, the, the agent orange issue where, which continues to maim and stunt the lives of many people in the region where agent orange was dropped it and then misbegotten effort to, to kill the jungle and expose. i'd place that troops vietnamese comment is north vietnamese troops. we call them i go back to that old war time tour and wait. there was north vietnam and south vietnam. we don't say north vietnam and south vietnam. we just say vietnam these days. but if you were there during the war, was north vietnam and south vietnam. ok, so now to many rural favor expanded ties with the u. s. do you think? i think i think that they do, they were expanded,

dies with the u. s. and i think that for some of those there during the war for any american vietnam can be quite a pleasant place to visit. now, there may be difficulties in drain negotiations. there are with every country. we have a lot of difficulties. the trade negotiations with allied countries, not much less for one issue that i should mention here is that the us very much wants to keep the south china sea and over to water. what china claims as are china is chinese. they say they're, they're territory. vietnam is corps on the south china sea and the u. s. by this relationship with vietnam, it is showing that at once very much supports the openness of the south china sea, which would include vietnam's rights to do so as it was in the south china sea, including oil and gas exploration. so that's the social on these

very important on the right side of the building, which also has problems with china and the south china sea were seen on it with which the united states is conducting war games right now. and, and very much supporting philippines glen to the south china sea. so all that fits into an end to what the united states is doing, you know. yeah. and you know, on that point, i think early on the south china sea, as donald was mentioning, the u. s. has military bases in the philippines. it's both 3rd, military cooperation with taiwan to what extent is there real comprehensive maritime security corporation right now between washington and hanoi, natasha. and, and where do you see that heading to i think we already mentioned a little bit that there are concerns with china's increasing assertiveness about the south china sea. and also its increasing aggressiveness with,

with taiwan. and what would china take action in taiwan and, and that's concerning to, to not just the u. s. and taiwan but also to other countries in the region including vietnam. and so that really drives you know, home the need to have a little bit more security cooperation taking place there. but of course, like i said, they need to tread carefully here with anything that they do on a security front because that could escalate things with china. further, as it doesn't want us to increase its sphere of influence or influence in the area, it's trying to push us out and assert itself more clearly. so i think there's a avenue here for more security cooperation. but like i said it's, it's quite a tight road. it's a very delicate, tight rope you're and i think from vietnam perspective, they're just trying to do a rational increase, increasing economic ties. this all makes sense. may be increasing access to some

weapons so that they can diversify themselves away from russia. but again, doing so in a way that doesn't make things worse or antagonize their relationship with beijing . okay. and what do you think? could there be blow back from beijing of vietnam? gets too close to the u. s. when it comes to issues off security and military cooperation. sure, i think being has shown itself to be quite willing to put pressure on se asian neighbors, vietnam included. there's recently been more activity in terms of the p r. c. doing more exploration right off vietnam's cause i've been, i'm doesn't like that. you know, that's a sort of long going to speed the p r. c obviously has a lot more capabilities that i could bring to bear and vietnam. that's one reason why vietnam was trying be very careful, but apart from the maritime space, i think vietnam is also very mindful that the me call river, which a lot of people that depend on for the likelihood the up upstream at runs from the

p. c. and p r c building there has sort of a, has really affected the ecosystem and that sort of downstream environment. so one of the concerns that vietnam also has is that if they get into a really tough situation with a p r c, there are several lever that the p r c could use. this would include trade, that's going to include the military stuff in the maritime domain, but also stuff that's done on the me kong upstream of the me call river. so that's why i think they probably want to tread very carefully. they probably would like the additional assurance of have being able to work with us, but they will do so carefully and quietly in ways to avoid any unnecessary friction with the p r c. and ha ha, under the obama administration, back in 2011, the former president, it announced the pivot to asia policy, which i'm sure you're very much aware of to, to deep in america. strategic footprint across the asia pacific and vietnam stood

out as a very important country today. if you fast forward to today 2023, what do you think the u. s. a strategy is for the region as it shifted much from, from what obama had set out to do. well, i mean, i think the u. s. is continue to try to strengthen their ties with asia and seeing that the level of bilateral trade with different countries in asia has increased and the u. s. is trying to increase its present. i think the actually, the thing that has changed more so than what the u. s. behavior has been china's behavior. the china has become much more assertive, not just in asia, but in latin american and africa as well. and has wanted to kind of push the u. s. out. so we see, well, the u. s. has been increasing, you know, it's, it's bilateral trade ties with a lot of these countries and trying to work through regional organizations and trying to create a block against china. i don't see its behavior changing that much from the obama

administration, but more so we're seeing a much more confident and assertive china on the world stage. donald, would you say the vietnam is foreign policy? can be somewhat limited due to its sheer proximity to china that vietnam will, will always be keen to keep her relations with its northern neighbor on a sort of a level playing field. what time has to be asked to be very concerned about china. the chinese vietnamese relationship goes deep, deep into the history of the region into their history. and obviously they will, they want to stand up against china, but they don't want to infuriate janet either. i'm just getting back to the point i'm about to cough just getting back to the point that was discussed a minute ago. the battle lines i had state use the word battle on,

let's say the line, the confrontation between the us, china as much sharpened in recent years that there's, there are a couple of, was the alliance. is there not quite alliances? there's a quad floor in good in india, japan, u. s. u k. a kwan for which is very much of an anti chinese grouping. l can be seen, is that a chinese grouping and is also august a u. k, u s. the australian. what is it a u, a u k u s alliance, which, which also can be seen very much as an anti chinese grouping. certainly the chinese see it that way. and so i would say that since the bomb administration, the sense the confrontation has deepened and that, and it was

a little blurry while during the above administration. but it's now quite sharply defined. are getting, getting more sharply defined. right. and what about donald when it is when it comes to the issue of the after we were mentioning russia moments ago, and specifically the war and ukraine? because what we found recently was that vietnam did not vote when it comes to you. and general assembly resolutions, vietnam did not vote with the west condemning russia's invasion of ukraine. so what do you think of that? i mean, there must be growing pressure on vietnam from the west, and particularly from the united states. aside with them on the ukrainian issue, are you surprised that vietnam is playing a balancing act here? no, i wouldn't be surprised by that date. there's no reason to vietnam to do or condemn the russians in ukraine. what's it, what's your grey mean to vietnam?

and they have, every reason to want to remain is on after he's in terms, if not quite good terms with russia. so there's no reason for them to condemn the russian invasion or your grand just isn't just really they can see it is not really you their, their immediate concern. and why should they get involved? well, let's talk while i was in, and just for the sake of time, i'll jump in there. and i mean, how important is the russian vietnamese relationship when it comes to potato, when we're comes to sort of a trade issues, oil and gas issues. ok, so i think on yes, certainly there is a degree of trade with between vietnam and russia. it's not as obviously not as significant as the us. but what is quite key for vietnam. we mentioned this earlier in the show is that vietnam still is quite dependent on russian technology and russian equipment for its military. right. so its ability to stand up to china,

its ability to maintain its presence on the south. china is trying to wean away from that, but you know that these are, it's not just the platforms of the whole systems, the logistics tail, the maintenance, the skills. so while there are some, you know, slight effort, there's some effort to sort of taken technologies from elsewhere. south korea, there's the coast guard cutter from the u. s. that whole movement, you know, it's going to be very long incoming. and so the vietnamese at this point in time, don't really don't want to upset moscow because they have their concerns there too . but what i think is also quite interesting is after the un boats, vietnamese officials, especially military officials, were actually on vietnamese tv, apparently explaining how they a vote. not with the human doesn't mean that they accept the correctness of an invasion and occupation of another country. they and they sort of brought up their own history to that effect. so i think a lot of what we're seeing is really the difficult and uneasy position that vietnam is faced with and their efforts to really navigate through the choppy waters that

have been created. watching our war. ok, we just have about one minute left of the program. natasha end with you. and i wanted to ask you about human rights because human rights organizations do criticize vietnam for its human rights record. we saw secretary state lincoln, allude to it in his press conference, is this something that the u. s. is going to turn a blind eye to. but i think you're going to see from us different things that they say openly and diplomatically when they're trying to perceive vietnam as an important trade partner. and then what might happen if they try to send over ships? lawmakers may block that on human rights grounds. so i mean the u. s. is not just one model of the entity. of course, there is a lot of different groups trying to put human rights front and center. and then there are the diplomatic needs which may trump at this moment. so whatever the needs are to, to, to clarify their human rights agenda. and i think what will probably be more

important is trying to push things forward economically. because vietnam, as we've already mentioned, is so important to us. it's an effort to counter chinese growing power. all right, we'll have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us. strong joy in natasha lynn. stayed in donald kirk. we appreciate your time. thanks for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. during the conversation on twitter or handle is a insight story from myself and the whole team. and thanks for watching and with ah

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