punjab province in the hor and for the middle east verse of rain to be found through western central and northern areas of saudi arabia. and we've shaken those winds across the gulf, but at times it will be a bit humid for us here in doha, on wednesday season. ah, it's a $1000000000.00 money, no drink operation. the co mafia is bigger than the company with financial institutions, regulators and governments complicit in that way. hopefully we'll get it right out of the strike in a 4 part series. al jazeera investigative unit goes under cover in southern africa, pittsburgh egan. philip. ronnie, pacino's doesn't. once it's recalling it's perfectly brandon, good. upon full on out, jazeera, the u. s. wants to deepen its relations with vietnam. the once warring countries already share strong trading ties, closer,

political and military cooperation. however, presenting oh, with a difficult balancing act. wise washington, wooing vietnam. this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm daring obligate. and they were once at war. and now 50 years after american forces pulled out a sigh gone. washington continues to build closer ties with vietnam. it's located in one of the world's most contested geo political hotspots with increasing military and naval competition between the u. s. and china, not least over taiwan. washington has been seeking to increase its influence in the area by forging new alliances against china. so the u. s. sector stayed,

anthony blinking has been in hanoi for talks with prime minister, pam, and chin and other leaders. his trip came just after the 50th anniversary of america's withdrawal of combat forces from south vietnam and the end of its direct military involvement in the vietnam war. blinking infused about a new era of cooperation without mentioning vietnam's, giant neighbor china. i also focused on our countries can advance a free and open in the pacific one that is a piece and grounded in respect to the rules based international order. when we talk about free and open, we mean country's being free to choose their own path and their own partners. and their problems will be dealt with openly. rules will be reached transparently and applied fairly and good ideas and people will flow freely across land. the seas, the skies in cyberspace, or for 20 years the u. s. was at war with north vietnam. the legacy of the conflict

linger is on with chemical agents, and unexploded bombs still causing illness and injury. estimate very, but at least 1300000 people were killed. since then, there's been a remarkable transformation and ties driven by business trade between the 2 countries has grown to hundredfold. since diplomatic normalization was achieved in 1995 last year, total trading goods exceeded $138000000000.00 with vietnam being among america's top 10 largest trading partners. the us vietnam's number one export markets altogether. vietnam posted $116000000000.00 trade surplus with the us led by shipments of goods like electronics, clothing, and footwear. while the ruling communist party holds unchallenged political control in the country, and it's been sharply criticized by international organizations over its human rights records. human rights watch calls dire and virtually all areas. and an

amnesty international report stated, independent journalist activist religious practitioners and other government critics were arrested and charged under repressive laws. human rights defenders were subjected to widespread harassment, digital surveillance, arbitrary arrest and politically motivated prosecution, torture, and other ill treatment continued to be reported at an alarming rate. well this is something lincoln was challenged about in 100 with regard to human rights and the relationship that, that we have. this is a conversation that we regularly engaging. and as we've, we said to our counterparts, it's very important that we continue to speak directly openly, candidly about our concerns. and that's exactly exactly what we do. ah, to discuss all of this,

i'm joined by our guest from singapore is strong giant who's an associate professor political science at the national university in singapore. he's also a non resident fellow at carnegie china from colchester in the u. k. were joined by natasha linds dad, who is the deputy dean of education and the department of government at the university of essex. natasha is also a u. s. foreign policy specialist. joining us from sol is donald kirk, who's a veteran correspondence, an author of whose covered asia and v. he's also covered asia and vietnam, extensively. welcome to you all. thanks so much for your time. donald kirk. so a vietnam has been on the recent itineraries of senior officials or the biden administration like the vice president, like the defense secretary. but how significant is this visit by blinkin and why now? well, i think it's extremely significant. clearly, the, it was to get a law with both china,

the media and your neighbor. and with the united states, in a sense, be a good light you as against china, vietnam as some specific problems with china over over who's controlling to see out there over over drilling for oil and natural gas under the water. and also there's some islands that were very much like to recover, including the power cells, which one's the enemy's islands. mistaken. right. china, just, just before the end of the vietnam war. so there are a lot of issues that the and united states can, can put on the appearance of supporting vietnam and brabs, giving them some leverage and negotiations with china. i should add mr. blanket while he was in, and i participated in the groundbreaking for construction of

a huge new american embassy. and i, i think the average is going to cost well over a $1000000000.00 us dollars, and it'll take a few years to build it. but it's an immense embassy that they're building their, in other words, is a huge american presence in this. all right, also asking about that if i'm bollock lee. and what does this tell us? tell us symbolically, in the price of that embassy, in fact, is $1200000000.00. so you're right. it's well over a 1000000000 right back to the americans placing such addresses on it as a lot to do. not just was it not, but obviously with america's policy about china. it's an american set up. well, what amounts to policy of containment? certainly the chinese think it's a policy of containment against china, and they say vietnam as fitting in with this policy, not did they, not that vietnam is going to be an enemy of china. vietnam cannot afford to

consider being an enemy of the, of a huge and northern neighbor, but vietnam can certainly play the u. s. against china. i can certainly fall upon the us not only for trade as was pointed out, huge trade, but also for a lot of support, a loan to romantic support number sensitive issues. yeah. ok. all important points you've raised, which will, which will drill down to and just on the 1st let me bring in natasha from the u. k . what do you think about this visit? what does the timing if it signal to you about what the us is looking to get out of this thing? well, i would agree with what had already been said that the u. s. is trying to get closer to vietnam to upgrade the relationship as a way of countering china's, from the us perspective, increasing assertiveness or aggressiveness in the region and just globally. so the

u. s. is hoping that this relationship is going to get stronger, both with security issues, and they are trying to at least discuss sending over ships for the, the coast guard and vietnam and vietnam. and previously most of its vessels from russia and as b. and i'm trying to rely less on russia us is trying to come in there know where to start. going to get passed by lawmakers with us is also trying to increase it bilateral economic ties entities, vietnam, as a really important piece to it's in the pacific strategy of countering china and trying to convince vietnam. the, china's assertiveness in the south trying to seed poses a threat to vietnam. and the bilateral trade ties are really important and already been mentioned. vietnam exports most of its goods to the us. it's number one, export or it goes to the u. s. a 109000000000 worth of goods. and while officially,

china is vietnam's biggest trading partner. and that's really because vietnam is importing many chinese good. so there are important economic relationships with, with both countries. but i think for vietnam, they don't want to antagonize china. it's geographically too close to china, there's a long history with china, and so they don't want to be too open about whatever role they might be playing in the u. s. is efforts to, to counter writing, trying to power. right. ok and natasha, you were mentioning a moment ago, the upgrade and relationships, the u. s. has been pushing for for a boost in relations with vietnam to what's called a strategic partnership. how likely is that to happen now? so we don't have word if this has happened yet after this recent meeting, i think the u. s. is trying to push for this and it's possible that biden will make an official visit to vietnam in july. so from the us perspective,

they definitely want this, but as i already mentioned from vietnam perspective, really want to increase some of the security and economic ties that they have with, with us just just for their own pragmatic reasons, rational reasons that it may benefit them. they have to be very careful about anything that they do. they could upset they jing, so they don't want to be too open or out worried about this. so i don't know if this is going to be something that is official officially declared by both countries. okay. and so we've been hearing that us officials are reluctant to describe this visit or, or really any visit to asia in terms of china preferring instead to discuss the importance of improving bilateral ties. but from where you sit, how much do you think china is actually the focus here? so i think china is part of the consideration, but i don't think it's all of the consideration. so for the us, i think it's pretty important for them to keep a presence in the region. they have

a lot of economic interest, as we've talked about. they also invest break significantly in se, asia, and for se data. it also provides a vital link between point west and to the u. s. allies, japan and south korea. so for the, for those reasons, i think the u. s. would like to maintain a robust presence. they are concerned that chinese efforts to trying to box them out of the region. so i think that's the sort of background the, the consideration though for not actually mentioning china. it is because these relationships are the idea of keeping the u. s. presence in southeast asia. has to do with, you know, creating a sense that the bilateral relationships, the multilateral relationships in southeast asia matter in and of themselves. they are not just derivative of the p r c. and they're not just derivative of competition with the p r c. and i think that's something that regional states will sort of take some, some heart from, i think, the less this is part of the lesson from past us engagement with se, asia,

i think many se, in states, vietnam included, don't like the fact that, you know, they are sort of secondary, their instrumental to larger us interest elsewhere. and so to be able to maintain and nurture that cooperation, the u. s. has to emphasize that the relationship has a quality of its own. and certainly, i think regional states like vietnam have an interest and further engagement. and they have right now how much of a difficult balancing act as this and cooperating with washington at the same time as has been alluded to without upsetting beijing. so it's, it's going to be difficult, beijing, as many people seem to have been pretty briskly recently. so that's the importance of not upsetting beijing. but i would also throw in that there's a certain domestic element, governments that are in disputes with the p r. c. vietnam looms larger, i mean they have a domestic sentiment that i think will punish their leaders if they seem to be

caving in. so working with us is one way to square that. so their multi dimensions to this relationship that we should not forget. and i think sometimes looking from the outside in the domestic dimensions, again, a little bit forgotten. let's talk about the domestic dimensions of donald kirk. i mean, you've covered for so long donald, how do you think that the, the public actually view the united states and also this relationship with the u. s . will in my return visit to via a for a lot of other americans, a good back there are always surprised by the, by the affection if you can believe it that many via the maze field for the united states. you don't encounter, you know, anti americanism or derisive remarks. of course, if you look hard enough, i'm sure you could find them. but basically people are quite friendly and quite courtesy, courteous toward americans. and i'm not quite sure if i don't understand why i,

since it was a terrible ward, which the americans were to blame for ongoing problems. we're talking about the, the, the agent orange issue, where, which continues to maim and stunt the lives of many people in the region where agent orange was dropped it in misbegotten effort to, to kill the jungle and expose. i'd place the troops vietnamese communist north vietnamese troops. we call them, i go back to that old war time term where there was north vietnam and south vietnam . we don't say north vietnam and south vietnam. we just say vietnam these days. but if you were there during the war, was north vietnam and south vietnam. ok, so now to many really favor expanded ties with the u. s. do you think? i think i think that they do, they were expanded,

dies with the u. s. and i think did some of those there during the war for any american vietnam can be quite a pleasant place to visit. now, there may be difficulties in drain negotiations. there are with every country. we have a lot of difficulties. the trade negotiations with allied countries, not much less for one issue that i should mention here is that the us very much wants to keep the south china sea in open water. what china claims, as our china is chinese, they say they're, they're territory. vietnam is of course, on the south china sea. and the us by this relationship with vietnam, it is showing that it wants very much supports the openness of the south china sea, which would include vietnam's rights to do so as it was in the south china sea. including oil and gas exploration. so that's the social on the

very important on the right side. china, philippines, which also has problems with china in the south china sea, were see united with which the united states is conduct the war games right now. and, and very much supporting philippines glen to the south china sea. so all that fits into and what do united states is doing, you know? yeah, on that point, i think only on the south china sea, as donald was mentioning, the u. s. has military bases in the philippines. it's both 3rd and military cooperation with taiwan. to what extent is there real comprehensive maritime security corporation right now between washington and hanoi, natasha. and, and where do you see that heading to i think we already mentioned a little bit that there are concerns with china's increasing assertiveness about the south china sea. and also its increasing aggressiveness with,

with taiwan. and would, would china take action in taiwan and, and that's concerning to, to not just the u. s. and taiwan but also to other countries in the region including vietnam. and so that really drives you know, home the need to have a little bit more security cooperation taking place there. but of course, like i said, they need to tread carefully here with anything that they do on a security front because that could escalate things that china further as it doesn't want us to increase its sphere of influence or influence in the area. it's trying to push us out and assert itself more clearly. so i think there's a avenue in here for more security cooperation. but like i said it's, it's quite a tight rope. it's a very delicate, tight rope here. and i think from vietnam's perspective, they're just trying to do what's rational increase, increasing economic ties. this all makes sense,

maybe increasing access to some weapons so that they can diversify themselves away from russia. but again, doing so in a way that doesn't make things worse or antagonize their relationship with beijing . okay. and what do you think? could there be blow back from beijing of vietnam? gets too close to the u. s. when it comes to issues, off security and military cooperation. sure, i think being has shown itself to be quite willing to put pressure on and south east asian neighbors, vietnam included. there's recently been more activity in terms of the p r. c. doing more exploration right off vietnam's coast i've been, i'm doesn't like that. you know, that's a sort of long going to speed the p r. c obviously has a lot more capabilities that could bring to bear and vietnam. that's one reason why vietnam was trying to be very careful, but apart from the maritime space, i think vietnam was also very mindful that the me call river, which a lot of it people that depend on for the likelihood of the up the upstream at runs

from the p r c and p r c. building there has sort of a, has really affected the ecosystem and that sort of downstream environment. so one of the concerns that vietnam also has is that if they get into a really tough situation with the p r c, there are several lever that the p r c could use. this would include trade, that's going to include the military stuff of the maritime domain, but also stuff that's done on the me kong upstream of the me home river. so that's why i think they are probably wants to tread very carefully. they probably would like the additional assurance of have being able to work with us, but they will do so carefully and quietly in ways to avoid any unnecessary friction with the p r c. and ha ha, under of the obama administration, back in 2011. the former president, it announced the pivot to asia policy, which i'm sure you're very much aware of to, to deepen america. strategic footprint across the asia pacific and vietnam stood

out as a very important country today. if you fast forward to today 2023. what do you think the u. s. a strategy is for the region as it shifted much from, from what obama had set out to do? well, i mean, i think the u. s. is continue to, to try to strengthen their ties with asia and seeing that the level of bilateral trade with different countries in asia has increased and the u. s. is trying to increase its present. i think that actually the thing that has changed more so than what the u. s. behavior has been china's behavior. the china has become much more assertive, not just in asia, but in latin american and africa as well. and has wanted to kind of push the u. s. out. so we see, well, the u. s. has been increasing, you know, it's, it's bilateral trade ties with a lot of these countries and trying to work through regional organizations and trying to create a block against china. i don't see its behavior changing that much from the obama

administration, but more so we're seeing a much more competent and assertive china on the world stage. donald, would you say the vietnam is foreign policy? can be somewhat limited due to its sheer proximity to china that vietnam will, will always be keen to keep her relations with its northern neighbor on a sort of a level playing field. well, this time has to be asked to be very concerned about china. the chinese vietnamese relationship goes deep, deep into history of the region, into their history. and obviously they, they want to stand up against china, but they don't want to infuriate janet either. i'm just getting back to the point i'm about to cough just getting back to the point that was discussed a minute ago. the battle lines i had state use the word battle on,

let's say the line, the confrontation between the us, china as much sharpened in recent years. there's, there are a couple of, was the alliance. is there not quite alliances? there's a quad floor in good in india, japan, u. s. u k. a kwan for which is very much of an anti chinese grouping. l can be seen, is that a chinese grouping and is also august a u. k, u s. the australian. what is it a u, a u k u s alliance, which, which also can be seen very much as an anti chinese grouping. certainly the chinese says that way. and so i would say that since the bomb administration, the sense the confrontation has deepened and that, and it was

a little blurry while during the above administration. but it's now quite sharply defined. are getting, getting more sharply defined. right. and what about donald when it is when it comes to the issue of the after we were mentioning russia moments ago, and specifically the war and ukraine? because what we found recently was that vietnam did not vote when it comes to you. and general assembly resolutions, vietnam did not vote with the west condemning russia's invasion of ukraine. so what do you think of that? i mean, there must be growing pressure on vietnam from the west, and particularly from the united states. aside with them on the ukrainian issue, are you surprised that vietnam is playing a balancing act here? i wouldn't be surprised by that date. there's no reason to vietnam to do or condemn the russians in ukraine. what's it, what's your grey mean to vietnam?

and they have every reason to want to remain on half decent terms, if not quite good terms with russia. so there's no reason for them to condemn the russian invasion. and grand just isn't just really, they can see it is not really you their, their immediate concern. and why should they get involved? well, let's talk while i was in, and just for the sake of time, i'll jump in there. and i mean, how important is the russian vietnamese relationship when it comes to putting when, when it comes to sort of a trade issues, oil and gas issues. ok, so i think on, yes, certainly there is a degree of trade with, between vietnam and, and russia. it's not as obviously not as significant as the us, but what is quite key for vietnam. we mentioned this earlier in the show is that vietnam still is quite dependent on russian technology and russian equipment for its military. right. so its ability to stand up to china,

its ability to maintain its presence on the south, china is trying to wean away from that. but you know that these are, it's not just the platforms of the whole systems, the logistics tail, the maintenance, the skills. so while there are some us, you know, slight effort, there's some effort to sort of taken technology from elsewhere. south korea, there's the coast guard cutter from the u. s. that whole movement, you know, it's going to be very long incoming. and so the vietnamese at this point in time, don't really don't want to upset moscow because they have their concerns there too . but what i think is also quite interesting is after the un books, vietnamese officials, especially military officials, were actually on vietnamese tv, apparently explaining how they a vote. not with the human doesn't mean that they accept the correctness of an invasion and occupation of another country. they and they sort of brought up their own history to that effect. so i think a lot of what we're seeing is really the difficult and an easy position that vietnam is faced with and their efforts to really navigate through the choppy

waters that have been created watching our war. ok, we just have about one minute left of the program. natasha. end with you. and i wanted to ask you about human rights because a human rights organizations do criticize vietnam for its human rights record. we saw secretary of state lincoln, allude to it in his press conference, is this something that the u. s. is going to turn a blind eye to? well, i think you're going to see from us different things that they say openly and diplomatically when they're trying to pursue vietnam as an important trade partner. and then what might happen if they try to send over ships. lawmakers may block that on human rights grounds. so i mean the u. s. is not just one model of the entity. of course, there is a lot of different groups trying to put human rights front and center. and then there are the diplomatic needs which may trump at this moment. so whatever the needs are to, to, to clarify their human rights agenda. and i think what will probably be more

important is trying to push things forward economically. because vietnam, as we've already mentioned, is so important to us. it's an effort to counter chinese growing power. all right, we'll have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us. strong joy in natasha lynn state and donald kirk. we appreciate your time. thanks for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. during the conversation on twitter or handle is a insights story from myself and the whole team ins. alpha, thanks for watching and like with ah

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