$3000.00 people every year, mostly in africa, was dr. thomas, when some ann arbor has the executive director for the african center for health policy, research and analysis. he says more information is needed to avoid the vaccine skepticism. it is good for us to have votes him from malaria. to save. a lot of this are over that we are skeptical because the vaccine hadn't yet received approval from w a school. yes. so gathering data to analyze the key see and safety. when our children gonna not participate in the trial, and we don't understand how the n d can jump over the new each. and the countries that under the trial to approve of events in that we don't know of. and that you know, where we need people who understand boxing to be the lead people to advise that the, the country. however, if you ask the societies that deal with boxes and none of them have much knowledge

about the boxes, the does not have not tested the buttons of countries i've done. therefore, there is no news about it. and we know of get in use in boxes. we know what happened during the coroner virus, and there is people are skeptical about boxes, unless it is well documented. and then people accept the w would you approve the doctors? and there's this may be hesitant even patients and may not allow the award to agree to take the vaccine with, i'm going to try like that in before. and then with malaria back from which is something about 80 percent. if he, casey, it was a challenge to get it done. what about a button that has never been tried and gone? is going to be difficult to implement is sibley ah, he wants to hear and these other top stories fighting has continued across sedans,

capital cartoon, despite a 3 day ceasefire. the warring sides agreed to stop violence for e festivities, which mark the end of ramadan. at least 413 people have been killed. supreme court in the u. s. has blocked restrictions imposed by a lower court and a widely used abortion pill. pending an appeal, it comes a week after a federal court ruled the pill will remain available, but with some controls throughs. former president is set to be extradited from the us to face corruption charges at a 100. toledo earlier handed himself in 2 authorities in california. he's accused of taking more than $25000000.00 in bribes during his 5 year presidency. today's request to block extradition was denied by federal judge. argentina's president alberto fernandez, says he won't be running for reelection in october. a surprise announcement comes

as the country faces of deepening economic crisis. hernandez was elected in 2019. you k deputy prime minister dominic rob has resigned. rob was accused of bullying when he served as foreign minister and justice minister. and more african countries look set to approve a new vaccine for malaria developed in the u. k. gonna and nigeria have already endorsed the use of the u. r. $21.00 job research is at the university of ox would say it's 75 percent effective, with area kills around $600000.00 people every year. mostly in africa. news continues her now to say or after, upfront, talk to al jazeera, we who is really fighting this russia wagner, or is it the russian military? we listen, we started talking to me. i'm your visual back. we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matters on our era. as long as our viewers of upfront, we'll know mandy has been, is

a journalist who likes to win argument this week. we welcome back to the show to discuss his new book when every argument where he shares the tips and tricks of how his home dissipating skills over the years. the 1st of today's contemporary music and pop culture in the united states can be traced back to black and indigenous position. however, their contributions have long gone, unrecognized in a song, have often been commodified for a majority white audience. so how are musicians today working to undo that historically ration and how do they continue to celebrate black performance and artistry? earlier i spoke to jake lot and award winning musician and scholar, specializing in the early folk music of black americans and parking and new distinguished professor of african and african american studies. a duke university and the author of several books including black, ephemeral, the crisis and challenge of the musical archive this week. the jake mark, thank you so much for joining me on upfront. jake are always that with you. you

describe yourself as a performer of traditional black music and a specialist in the early folk music of black americans. you often talk about the profound waves, the black people have shaped and even defied roots music and american itself. but many people, the contributions of black folk and indigenous folk seems, seems to be lost to history. can you talk about why it's so important for you to highlight the impact of this sort of appropriation and cultural white washing? i think for me than the main reason is because it's all still ongoing. i think it's really easy to go listen to stories about the early record industry about the way that early country music took shape. here the ways that black people and digital people were kind of boxed out of the early commercial opportunities that were available in that and lose sight of the fact that the same logic informs how many of the larger labels today. many of the publicists today are choosing the artists that they work with, right. we're still having trouble finding space for black people for indigenous

people, for women to get the radio play to get the industry access. that particular lead, straight white men are able to have in country and american and related industries . absolutely mark in your work. you also talk about the eraser of black people's cultural contributions in the united states. and it's not just folk music, but we see this stuff happening. can you walk us through a little bit how other black john was other forms of black music? got commodified even as its origins were sort of wilfully forgotten. the best example, this of course is for rock'n'roll music. we forget about some of the early influences, like folks like the system, rosetta thorpe, who was extensively a gospel singer, but she played a good car. right, right. it played, and jazz clubs. we forget about even someone like ike turner who created a really, you know, influential song call rocket, 69. which is, you know, foundational to the sound of what we call rock and roll. and the practices at

window one in the 1950s. it just was every day that a black artist would do what we would call a rhythm and blues song and that period of time that would get covered by white artists and be promoted as something absolutely different. the most famous case of that, of course, is how dog read everybody. they know an elvis presley song. they know how dog, right most folks don't know the big mama thornton recording the 2 years before elvis presley. and even as he became the king of rock and roll. somewhat like big moment, gordon was a race from history. pat boons. oh, both whole musical career lease in the 1950s was predicated on covering little richard sachs. and would you listen to the richard saying to the fruity which has a certain kind of resonance that we all recognize? you know, you been raised in the black church and black blue spaces and rhythm and blues and what have you. and then you listened. the pat boone st to the freudian is i get a, what is this right here in a little room, whitewashing?

yeah. black music, what you hear, pat boone saying to the free mark, a lot of times people talk about black music as the struggle they talk about black music is the music of pain and suffering and struggle. and it absolutely is. we had to make a way at no way, right. but it's also about joy at. can you talk a little bit about sort of how this tradition is not just a tradition of, of pain and suffering. it is something like, like loose music, right. and, and for the average person, you hear blues losing, that's a bunch of mournful, sorry, ho, sad black people singing about stuff and, and shout out to angela davis because this is a part of which he talked about who were blue legacies. when you go to these black women losing to the 1920s, they're talking about everything in an offering, social justice commentary. but they're also talking about sexual desire. both, you know, heterosexual sexual desire and same sex sexual desire in many of the songs that they're singing. and, and it's so much more than that, right. it is black music,

specifically, right. is an exploration of the black, social, cultural, and spiritual condition. it's like, you know, barocha says, you know, the late leroy jones, a late america says and, and blues, people like that. great, like the spirit do not descend without music, and that very much captures with black music is. and again, there's a moment where black music is seen as entertainment and commodity. and that's important because, you know, musicians need to be able to make a living right. but it's more than that, right? it is more than just entertainment, right? it is a lot the life force of black people being express in the musical context, cigna in your work, you've talked about on, through how, in moments of despair, even in your own despair about ant, have like violence against state bounds. all these things you've had to turn to the music of our ancestors. artificial like music remains away. you say of how they survived for so what is traditional black music mean to you? i chose to use the term traditional black music because it's expansive. ahem!

when we talk about traditional music, oftentimes in a folk music context, it comes very specifically with like, i play fiddle tunes or icing see shanties that kind of thing. right? and when i say traditional black folk music, i think oftentimes people who are in the know will go to the banjo or people think blues guitar. and i love those things and i do those things. but i also think that any real definition of traditional black folk, folk music would have to include hip hop it would have to include punk, it would have to include disco there. many other things that i think fall under that term by putting the bad brains in when it, when it, they got about about traditional muse. exactly. but what i'm thinking about that if i'm talking about folk music community music, traditional music that emerged out of us wanting to do something together rather than us wanting to sell something. and i think that that creates a very different type of artistic product in the end. when i was growing up,

we were playing banjos in high school, you know, limitless respect for the cultural role of the banjo and that music can play it. and i love it, but you know, that's not what was going on around me. right. people weren't dancing to that, right. the angels weren't hot industry. exactly. you've talked about the depiction of black people, particularly the music industry, and also this legacy of minstrelsy in the minstrel show. when you look at the re packaging of black identity and black performance in bits and pieces for white profit, white entertainment. how do you feel like the missiles playing out in the current moment, the current error? you know, the way we talk about minstrels is, is, is, is complicated, rightly has, you know, one him we, we need to make a distinction between minstrels and blackface mental see, right. these folks who literally blackened up um as white folks to look black and perform some variation of what they thought was blackness. but then when you get to that error, folks like george walker and, and, and bert williams. and ernest,

he hogan wright who, who understand the limits of what they can do as musicians and song writers. and so earnest, he organ might write a song like, and this is a truth, right? he wrote a song call all look alike to me. the black man writing a song and 18 ninety's and you know, call all look alike to me that was primarily consumed by white audiences, right? cheap music, right? playing the song in their homes on their pianos, etc, et cetera. he understood what the market was at the time and, and the hunger appetite, if you will, you know, for white folks took for what they deemed as authentic blackness, right? whether it was or not. right? and this is part of the game that we seen in 1990. s. what gangster? rap? um, i have no doubt in my mind when we think about the primary figures of what gets identified as gangster rap. understood to day. we're packaging something for white, mainstream consumption. right. that didn't necessarily reflect who they were, what we know they were, it didn't reflect who they were right. osha jackson came from

a 2 parent household. right. snoop dog came from a super, like all the kind of stereotypes in mythologies about black pathology. right? that was embedded in gainst wrapping in 1000 ninety's. you know, they understood they were delivering this to white consumers were profit, it doesn't mean it. there wasn't some truth in that the critique to police vitality were very much real in the context of that. but it's complicated, right? it's never going to be one thing, right? you're giving something to the market in order to make a living that the white consumers will consume. and at the same time, you're hoping that black audience is here, the lower frequencies of what you're delivering for something that's more liberatory and painting and spiritual in that context. i guess the, you close out over there. yeah, no i'm, i'm really excited that that one where it did. i know we're thinking about the power of, of, of our work as black folk and the power of cultural production to create change. whether it's the critiques and pretty police brutality or, or state violence,

or black on black crime, whatever the thing might be. i'm also thinking about reparation. yeah. your 1st record is called not for within the reparation. when we think about the future, like music making, how do you think we can apply reparations, right? and for those out them to about compensation for the unpaid labor and systemic exploitation that black people have been forced to render since the beginning of slavery. but how do we think about it in the context of the music industry? so i talk about this a lot whenever we wind up having the conversation about cultural appropriation, which is this huge hot term right now that i think a lot of people here, but maybe don't understand the concept behind it. one of the things that i typically point to when we're talking about black music is how, whether it's rock and roll or minstrel see, or hip hop, or disco, or jazz, whatever. all of america's major musical exports have come out of the black community, right? our music industry is built on the contributions of black people. look at the

financial breakdown of where that money is going after it's being made. right. black people are producing the content, right? we're doing the intellectual and the spiritual and artistic labor to create the genres. and somebody else is making all the money, and that to me is a problem. and i think reparations is a big systemic conversation that needs to happen. and i'm well aware of that, many people who don't want that water down by talking about it in anything less than a context of government payouts for i really would lean directly there. and that's what i, i think on an individual level, there is absolutely more that artist can do. and you know, i'm, i'm fortunate to work with a know, a lot of white musicians who go out of their way because they understand that they owe a debt. and i think it would be nice in those moments where things get out of hand for us. right. i think a lot of people thought about this during the george floyd uprisings a few years ago. you know, where are all of the rich white people who are in the entertainment industry,

who have these massive followings, who have huge platforms, who has billed to their careers in themselves based on our work and then are not showing up. when we need to the board and certainly i think when you're talking about reparations. yeah, there needs to be a check. there needs to be money, right. someone has done labor and there needs to be compensation for the labor. i also think as a performer, one of the most meaningful things available to me is not just my own personal resources because i know of, for a lot of performers, even on a high level. oftentimes those aren't as high as they appear to people on the outside, right. and all those people have a lot of people working for them. but i also think they have the power to motivate a huge group of people who also adapt because they enjoy all of the music and it would be great to see more buy in. absolutely, from you know, those a list celebrities built in empire with,

with our bricks. indeed. jake mark, i want to thank you so much for joining me on upfront. oh, thank you mark. ah, if you are a long time viewer of up fright, then you are probably used to seeing my next guest argue his way through some pretty tough interviews in this very studio madd. the hassan is a man who knows how to win an argument. he was the 1st host of up front and had to head here on al jazeera english. and he's now the host of the man. he hasn't shown m as in b, c. and on peacock here in the united states. he's also an author. he has a new book, it's called when every argument, the art of debating, persuading and public speaking in it is full of tips and tricks on how to win an argument, whether it's at home in a debating chamber or on t. v may had the good to see you, but to see my so lovely to be here, i was out of it was a has a feel to come back. i was weird. should i go sit there and you come say we yell at me now yelling, but will argue, intensely, intensely, those good to be

a thanks. i have me so much fun. now it's, it's great also to talk about this book. i have read it and so closely and, and i was persuaded in certain ways, why did you write it now? i wrote it now. i. well, the short answer is there was a pandemic. so i started writing. the long answer is politically, i do believe we're in a moment where our public spaces, both in the u. s. and around the world have just come back from the u. k. have been taken over by gas lighters. people pushing nonsense b. s false information. a con man griffiths and i believe that we need to retake our public square. we need to retake discourse. democracy cannot survive or we can't have good faith disagreement. and unfortunately have too many bad faith disagreements these days. so i looked around, i saw what was going on, i said, look, i want to help people, i want to equip people with the rhetorical skills i need to push back against this nonsense. so i found all the tips persuasive i was convinced, but all of these will work. the thing that ringing in my mind is, are we giving into the drifters by arguing on their level by wiling in the mud with

them should really try to attain a higher level yes or no. so in an ideal world, of course, we should be attaining a higher level. i have my own rules and i say, you know what, i have a hygiene test. i will have an election dinner on the shirt means i can't interview a lot of republican politicians who i might want to interview. but i don't want to give a platform to people who say, terabyte and isn't the president. i don't want to give a platform to climate change denies holocaust denies. just i'll argue with anyone people, you know. i mean, i love arguing, but have to draw a line somewhere. i would argue, reality. i'm not gonna argue up his down hot. his cold, black is why not argue with conspiracy? there's, you're right, i will wallow in the mud with people with others. yes. but that's kind of that's, that's kind of big. the big abstract point. the specific point is you can't avoid some of these people more. we live in a well now where, you know, there was a time when a lot of people say to me, well, you know, you do what you do. i'm going to keep my head done. none of us can keep our heads down anymore. if you're in the united states, for example, as we are right now, democracy is existentially threatened. one of the 2 major political parties has

been taken over by near fascists, cultivates conspiracy theorists. authoritarians, this scenario, which you can say, well, you know, i'm just going to my, my business. that's for them. this is for me know, the arguments coming to you whether you want to or not. what i find frustrating is i see liberals left is progressive, small di democrats, who may have the facts and the figures. we've got the truth, but they can't persuade other people. they don't know how to convey it to others, no point having all the knowledge and all the facts and all the wisdom if you can't get across to the people who need it. so i'm saying, great, have you a wonderful facts, have your highbrow combinations. but at some point, yeah, you're going to have to push back against the people i called dish gallup is in the book that people just want to knock you down with misinformation. you're going to have to push back. one of the things you talk about is knowing the audience, how important is to recognize who you're talking to. what does that mean in practical terms in terms of engaged media conversations on controversial? so, i mean, it's interesting, we're sitting here on out there, english,

a global audience is watching us when i do my show every week, it's mainly an american audience watching me. so as a journalist, you tailor your message to who's in front of you and i would argue not just as a journalist as any person in a public forum or even a private form. if you're around the dinner table with your maga loving uncles thanksgiving, you are going to take a different approach to convincing that mega loving uncle as you are with maybe an auditorium full of students at your university or college, or in a board room at work. i'm not saying me to face, i'm saying say the same thing you want to say make the same argument, have the same beliefs and principles, but taylor them to who is in front of you know, who your audience. so for example, if i'm dealing with an american audience, and i'm talking about afghan stop, right, i'm going to talk to the american, i want to make the case to be africa and what was wrong. and joe biden was right to pull out, which i did on my show. i'm going to meet the case along the lines of this cost, the american public. a great deal of blood and treasure. that doesn't mean i also don't believe it cost afghans a lot of life. is it destroyed? i've got to start. it was a geopolitical bank. now, those are all great. but what's the number one argument i'm going to make to my

view is this didn't help you. right? because they're the people that scares me just a little bit. because part of the challenge of this is when people tell their message to audiences in the kinds of here describing this neil fastest moment this authoritarian moment is that they're playing to people's fears also to their biases . and so if we live in a world where ask a lot of disposable already, and we only focus on the budget that, you know, certainly. so what we prioritize, but it's also about it prioritize about. you need to get your message across to people. you need to convince a skeptical person you need to get through the door. and what i'm suggesting in the book is here are some trips can techniques to get you through the door. once you're through the door. yes, bring up everything else, bring up the cost to africa lives. bring out the geopolitical problems. how do you get through the door? we live in a world where the door is shut, fall too often these days were very, very power. our people don't want to hear a liberal if they're concerned, they don't wanna hear because out of their liberal. and also i would just say, you know, you say player pupils is thus the world we live and this is a very practical book is noted for it's not written for kind of ancient greece.

utopian debate chambers is written for the real world. and i say in the real world, people are biased. people are afraid, people do feel the way towards the conclusion that are rationally think their way towards. that's who i'm dealing with. well, that's how i have to adapt. so it's less than asking this isn't at the same argument the trunk could make. okay, i think immigration really bad. i think we do any better border security, so i'll tell them they're taking your jobs or they're sitting criminals rape across the border. that's what their fears are, that's what their biases are. and so therefore i can appeal to my audience. you know, in my, my fear about that is that it reinforces the question to you that mark is, what do you do in response to doing that anyways, right? he's doing it masterfully as much as we might laugh at his lack of eloquence and his ignorance, etc. he does know how to press the right buttons. he doesn't know how to rouse a crowd, he does not get people to the polling station. he does it in the darkest way possible. he appeals to our worst emotions, fear, loathing, paranoia prejudice. i'm not saying appealed to the same emotions. i'm just saying

appealed to emotion. but you know, for example, if you're a liberal or leftist, you can inspire people with hope solidarity with a common vision of a shared future. but inspire people. how do you do that and still hold on if you even want to, to these sort of traditional journalistic principles of objectivity distance in the book? very clear papers is the way to go. yes. appealing to the motion that you're saying . now, how do you do that? but also hold to some sense of journalistic objectivity. so the 2nd chapter is about appealing to emotion. and pathos is aristotle, but at the 3rd chapter is on logos and fun facts. i'm not thing dropped the facts. i'm not kelly uncommon. alternative. i'm saying facts matter ceilings about feelings tend to matter more than fact. so go ahead with feelings, but make sure facts follow your way through. you know, anyone who knows what he wants to show knows, i love my fax. i love my receipts, the chapters go show you will receive my favorite when i come and say, you know what? i'm the guy who says to, you know, whoever it is, you said this in 2009. how can be said that i've got i've got the transcript, right?

that's what i've known for i. so i'm not saying drunk fax. i'm say we need all that . but you know, you mentioned the objectivity. it's a word i struggle with these days because i think journalists have hidden behind this abstract idea of objectivity to avoid having to take some important moral position like what the, what the classic example were in the u. s. for several years while tom was present, journalist would not say the word lie. they would not say the word races because they were taught in j school. you don't say stuff like that. you don't question what's in someone hot. you play both sides. and i say no, it took a long time for people to realize we live in an authoritarian moment. you have to be able to call ally, ally, and you what times is use racially tinted race track device. that's the renter's, right? you were letters. so now slowly, some journalists are realized, as you need to be able to call things out for what they are, the truth is more important, objectivity, factual reality is more important. and if you're defining objectivity, some mid point between the 2 parties, one of the 2 parties is now an authoritarian, anti democratic movement. so you don't really want to be in a midpoint. and by the way, we, as journalists, mark, we have a bias. we have

a bus to the truth. we have a bus to reality. we have a bus to democracy, we can't function as a free press as a for the state. if democracy doesn't exist, the people that i'm an unbiased journalist, no, you should have some biases. they're important out, absolutely, acknowledging what they are acknowledging with absolute how much of this is a u. s. then you talk about sort of being in the u. s. u k. at different moment. how much of this is particular to the rise of trump and whatever's going on here? i think it's very global when i talk about trump's america. i'm also thinking, you know, his israel, other ones, turkey, moody's, india, all. but i'm hungry putin's russia. you know, the u. k on the birth johnson visual when he was and if the party is still doing some i read just things. but also when i sat in that see, and i interviewed ministers from around the well visiting. i noticed in 20172018. every time i would interview administer from an african government and asian government. they founded like trump. they did the same, the same verbal text. they were using the same tactics, the same fake news, the same trying to overwhelm you with

a bunch of nonsense. it wasn't just trump and trump in people that i was interview . it was people around the world who are saying cynically that works what that guys doing in america that work. so this is a global problem. sadly, for global media, you've had a lot of people to account in this very studio. in your book, you give lots of examples from upfront out 0. what is your, i guess, favorite memory of a debate. you had, one of my favorite movies. i tell it in the book was standing right behind you with that monitor talking to a man named steve rogers, not captain america. sadly, but a trump advisor in 2018. and it was, he was doing the gish gallup. what i say and about he was trying to just throw lots of nonsense and use up the time and make him move on. and what i say in the book is you need to do 3 things to start. they need to pick your battle in need to not budge. need to call it out. cuz i didn't he, he wanted to avoid the discussion where the trumpet lied about 16 steel mills and i, i kept just sticking to that, picked my battle. i didn't budge. i said no talk to him about stick steel mills. and he wanted to move on at one point. he said,

just move on that note. and i called that said you want me to move on cuz you know, it's a lie. i'm never going to says le, okay, what were the 16 bills? that was me saying everyone's about their own way of trying to take these people on is very hard to take these people. here's a possible way that you can do it. and i say to my fellow journalists here is a one way you can do it and we're getting to 2024. all these gish gallup is going to be back on our a line up. the line up here is one way of trying to stop them dead in the middle of you are a gish gallup or stopper to be sure you get a t shirt with is amazing book of everybody takes it out, made the so good to see you walking back it's been a pleasure ma'am. yeah, we're interview of the baton. it makes me happy. everybody. that even why to that is our show up front will be back. ah ah.

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demonstration from around the world. and even when doctors here are able to make an early diagnosis, can guarantee the transportation of the sick, the cell, faith, another challenge, a meeting of minds or of the world. the hottest rise of in colorado, the climate catastrophe. where do you put the resulting anger? well, i'm hoping we can use it as the fuel to change society for the better musical innovative brian the note meets renowned economist hi, june chang. part 2. cornerstone for fun is the car is in the world. yeah. i don't have any competition to gy unscripted on al jazeera, what we do, and i'll just farrah is trying to balance this story. and he's the people who allow us into their lives, dignity and to my niecy. ah.