parents and advocates that unless serious protection measures are taken, innocent life's will continue to be at stake. monica unoccupied. i'll just 0. rio de janeiro. multiple tornadoes have touched down in oman, a stroke mostly in its easton region. the storms reach speeds of 200 kilometers. an hour killing alive stalk damaging proxy. am cutting power supplies. amman civil aviation authorities issued weather warnings for heavy rainfall in musket and surrounding regions. blue this is al jazeera, these you top stories, stay 10 in the power struggle between the sudanese army and the power military group. the rock and support forces. icing has killed more than 400 people in thousands to play their homes. the chaos in sudan is triggered the evacuations of

foreign diplomats and their families. the u. s. the u. k. france, germany and others have pull their citizens out, has been accomplished operation, and it has been a successful operation. first, stop being union when you want people already knew this. and many more, she pieces. all this already. how to she won. i couldn't even retrieve more than most housing people. canyon police have dug up the remains of 47 people from a land owned by the leader of the cult. they say the victim staff themselves after being told to stop eating. the pastor is in police custody. australia's launched, its biggest defense shakeup in decades is looking to transform its ministry, which the government says is no longer fit for purpose. it has fly long range, precision strike weapons as one of its pilots,

agriculture ministers from the g 7 nations, a call for the extension of the ukrainian grain export deal. the agreement allows ukraine to export grain from a number. if it's black, see ports rush has indicated it won't allow the deal to continue. beyond may 18 all the 3000 people and marching north through mexico and the latest in a series of migrant caravans. heading towards mexico city with the aim of reaching the united states border, peruse, former president allowed them to lego has returned home all to being expedited from the u. s. in order to face corruption charges. he's accused of accepting more than $35000000.00 in bribes during his 5 years in office to laid out denies any wrong doing. coming up next up front, stay with us. ah, from breaking down the headlines to exposing the power was attempting to silence reporting. the listening post doesn't just cover the news. it covers the way the

news is coming. oh, now does it? as long as our viewers of upfront will know, many heston is a journalist who likes to win argument this week. we welcome back to the show. the discuss his new book when every argument where he shares the tips and tricks of how he's home debating skills over the years. but 1st watch of today's contemporary music and pop culture in the united states. it can be traced back to black and indigenous musicians. however, their contributions have long gone, unrecognized in their songs, have often been commodified for majority white audience. so how are musicians today working to undo that historically ration, and how do they continue to celebrate black performance and artistry? earlier i spoke to jake like an award winning musician and scholar, specializing in the early folk music of black americans and pork. anthony kneel, distinguished professor of african and african american studies, a duke university, and the author of several books including black fmr, the crisis and challenge of the musical archive this weeks of front.

jake mark, thank you so much for joining me on up front. jake are always that way. you describe yourself as a performer of traditional black music and a specialist in the early folk music of black americans. you often talk about the profound wave. the black people have shaped and even defied roots music and americans itself. but many people, the contribution of the black folk and indigenous folk seems, seems to be lost to history. can you talk about why it's so important for you to highlight this, the impact of this sort of appropriation and cultural white washing? i think for me the, the main reason is because it's all still ongoing. i think it's really easy to go listen to stories about the early record industry about the way that early country music took shape. here the ways that black people into digital people were kind of boxed out of the early commercial opportunities that were available in that and lose sight of the fact that the same logic informs how many of the larger labels

today, many of the, publishes today are choosing the artist that they work with, right, we're still having trouble finding space for black people for indigenous people for women to get the radio play to get the industry access that particular lead, straight white men are able to have in country and american and related industries . absolutely. mark in your work, you also talk about the eraser of black people's cultural contributions in the united states. and it's not just folk music, but we see this stuff happening. can you walk us through a little bit how other black john was other forms of black music? got commodified even as its origins were sort of wilfully forgotten. the best example this, of course, is we're rock'n'roll music. we forget about some of the early influences, like folks like the system, rosetta thorpe, who was extensively a gospel singer, but she played a guitar. it, craig, it played and jazz clubs. we forget about even someone like ike turner who created

a really, you know, influential song call rocket, 69. which is, you know, foundational to the sound of what we call rock and roll. and the practices that went on in the 1950s. it just was every day that a black artist would do what we would call a rhythm and blues song and that period of time that would get covered by white artists and be promoted as something absolutely different. the most famous case of that, of course, is how dog read everybody. they know an elvis presley song. they know how dog, right most folks don't know the big mama thornton recorded the 2 years before elvis presley. and even as he became the king of rock and roll, someone like big moment, gordon was a race from history tact boons. oh, both whole musical career leasing in 19 fifties was predicated on covering little richard songs. and would you listen to the richard sing, today's fruity, which has a certain kind of resonance that we all recognize. you know, you been raised in the black church and black blue spaces and rhythm and blues and

what have you. and then you listen, the pat boone st to the freudian is i get a, what is this right it, you know, here here a little bit, a rule whitewashing yeah. black music. when you hear pat boone saying to the free mark, a lot of times people talk about black music as the struggle. they talk about black music as a music, a pain and suffering and struggle. and it absolutely is. we had to make a way at a no way, but it's also about. 1 joy at can you talk a little bit about sort of how this tradition is not just a tradition of pain and suffering. it is something like, like loose music, right. and, and for the average person here blues losing that a bunch of mournful, sorry, full, sad black people singing about stuff and, and shout out to angela davis. because this is a part of which he talked about who were blue legacies. when you go to these black women losing to the 1920s, they're talking about everything in an offering, social justice commentary. but they're also talking about sexual desire. both, you know, heterosexual sexual desire and same sex sexual desire in many of the songs that

they're singing. and, and it's so much more than that, right. it is black music, specifically, right. is an exploration of the black, social, cultural, and spiritual condition. it's like, you know, barracka says, you know, the late leroy jones, a late america says and, and blues, people like that. great, like the spirit do not descend without music, and that very much captures with black music is. and again, there's a moment where black music is seen as entertainment and commodity. and that's important because, but you know, musicians need to be able to make a living right. but it's more than that, right? it is more than just entertainment, right? it is a lot the life force of black people being express in the musical context, cigna in your work, you've talked about on, through how, in moments of despair, even in your own despair about ant. i've like violence against state bounds. all these things you've had to turn to the music of our ancestors. artificial like music remains away, you say of how they survived for so what is traditional black music mean to you?

i just use the term traditional black music because it's expansive. adam, when we talk about traditional music, oftentimes in a folk music context, it comes very specifically with like, i play fiddle tunes or icing see shanties that kind of thing. right? and when i say traditional black folk music, i think oftentimes people who are in the know will go to the banjo or people think blues guitar. and i love those things and i do those things. but i also think that any real definition of traditional black f o, as in folk music, would have to include hip hop, it would have to include punk, it would have to include disco there. many other things that i think fall under that term by putting the bad brains in when they, when it, they got about, about traditional music. exactly. but what i'm thinking about that if i'm talking about folk music community music, traditional music that emerged out of us wanting to do something together rather

than us wanting to sell something. and i think that that creates a very different type of artistic product in the end. when i was growing up, we were playing banjos in high school, you know, limitless respect for the cultural role of the banjo and that music can play it. and i love it, but you know, that's not what was going on around me. right. people weren't dancing to that, right. the angels weren't hot industry. exactly. well, you've talked about the depiction of black people, particularly the music industry and also this legacy of minstrelsy and minstrel show. when you look at the re packaging of black identity and black performance in bits and pieces for white profit, white entertainment. how do you feel like the mr shows playing out in the current moment, the current error? you know, the way we talk about minstrels is, is, is, is complicated, rightly has, you know, one him we, we need to make a distinction between minstrels and blackface mental see, right. these folks who literally blackened up um as white folks to look black and

perform some variation of what they thought was blackness. but then when you get to that error, folks like george walker and, and, and bert williams. and ernest t hogan wright who, who understand the limits of what they can do as musicians and song writers and so earnest, he hogan, might write a song like in this is a truth, right? he wrote a song call, all look alike to me is the black man writing a song in the 18 ninety's, you know, called all look alike to me that was primarily consumed by white audiences, right? cheap music, right? playing the song in their homes on the panels, et cetera, et cetera. he understood what the market was at the time and in the hunger appetite, if you will. you know, full white folks took for what they deemed as authentic blackness, right? whether it was or not, right, and this is part of the game that we seen in 1000 ninety's with gangster rap. i have no doubt in my mind when we think about the primary figures of what gets identified as gangster rap. understood to day we're packaging something for white,

mainstream consumption. right. that didn't necessarily reflect who they were when we know they were, it didn't reflect who they were. right. osha jackson came from a 2 parent household. right. snoop don't came from a duper, but like all the kind of stereotypes, mythologies about black pathology. right? that was embedded in gainst wrapping in 19 ninety's. you know, they understood they were delivering this to white consumers were profit. it doesn't mean there wasn't some truth in that. the critique to police vitality were very much real in the context of all that. but it's complicated, right? it's never going to be one thing, right? you're giving something to the market in order to make a living that the white consumers will consume. and at the same time, you're hoping that black audience is here, the lower frequencies of what you're delivering for something that's more liberatory and staining and spiritual in that context. i guess the co sign in over there. yeah, no i'm, i'm really excited that that one where it did. yeah. as we're thinking about the power of, of,

of our work as black folk and the power of cultural production to create change. whether it's the critique to produce police brutality or, or state violence, or black on black crime, whatever the thing might be. i'm also thinking about reparation. yeah. your 1st record is called not felicity, gently reparation. when we think about the future, like music making, how do you think we can apply reparations, right? and those out them to about compensation for the unpaid labor and systemic exploitation that black people have been forced to render since the beginning of slavery. right. how do we think about it in the context of the music industry? so i talk about this a lot whenever we wind up having the conversation about cultural appropriation, which is this huge hot term right now that i think a lot of people here, but maybe don't understand the concept behind it. one of the things that i typically point to when we're talking about black music is how, whether it's rock and roll or minstrel fee or hip hop, or disco, or jazz, whatever. all of america's major musical exports have come out of the black

community, right? our music industry is built on the contributions of black people. look at the financial breakdown of where that money is going after it's being made right. black people are producing the content, right? we're doing the intellectual and the spiritual and artistic labor to create the genres. and somebody else is making all the money, and that to me is a problem. and i think reparations is a big systemic conversation that needs to happen. and i'm well aware of that, many people who don't want that water down by talking about it in anything less than a context of government payouts for that i probably would lean directly there. and that's what i, i think on an individual level, there is absolutely more that artist can do. and you know, i'm, i'm fortunate to work with a know, a lot of white musicians who go out of their way because they understand that they owe a debt. and i think it would be nice in those moments where things get out of hand

for us. right. i think a lot of people thought about this during the george floyd uprisings a few years ago. you know, where are all of the rich white people who are in the entertainment industry, who have these massive followings, who have huge platforms, who has billed to their careers in themselves based on our work and then are not showing up. when we need to the board and certainly i think when you're talking about reparations. yeah, there needs to be a check. there needs to be money, right. someone has done labor and there needs to be compensation for the labor. i also think as a performer, one of the most meaningful things available to me is not just my own personal resources because i know of, for a lot of performers, even on a high level. oftentimes those aren't as high as they appear to people on the outside, right. and all those people have a lot of people working for them. but i also think they have the power to motivate a huge group of people who also adapt because they enjoy all of the music. and it

would be great to see more by in absolutely from, you know, those a list celebrities built in empire with, with our bricks. indeed, jake mark, i want to thank you so much for joining me on upfront. so thank you, mark the if you are a long time viewer of up front, then you are probably used to seeing my next guest argue his way. there are some pretty tough interviews in this very studio. maddie has been, is a man who knows how to win an argument. he was the 1st host of upfront and had to have it here on al jazeera english. and he's now the host of the mandy hasn't shown him in b, c, and on peak are here in the united states. he's also an author. he has a new book. it's called when every argument, the art of debating, persuading and public speaking it. it is full of tips and tricks on how to win an argument, whether it's at home in a debating chamber or on t v had the good to see you to see much so lovely to be here. how does i was i have

the fuel to come back with, should i go sit there and you come say we're let me know yelling, but will argue intensely, intensely though it's good to be a thanks so much fun. now it's great also to talk about this book. i've read it and closely, and i was persuaded in some ways, why do you write it now? i wrote it now. well, the sure answer is there was a pandemic. so i started writing. the long answer is politically, i do believe we're in a moment where are public spaces, both in the u. s. and around the world? i've just come back from the u. k. have been taken over by gaslight, as people pushing nonsense b. s false information, a con man griffith z. and i believe that we need to retake our public square. we need to retake discourse. democracy cannot survive and we can't have good faith disagreement. and unfortunately we have too many bad faith disagreements today. so i looked around, i saw what was going on, i said, look, i want to help people, i want to equip people with the rhetorical skills i need to push back against this

nonsense. so i found all the tips persuasive. i was convinced but all of these will work. the thing that kept ringing in my mind is, are we giving into the drifters by arguing on their level wallowing in the mud with them? should we try to attain a higher level? yes or no? so in an ideal world, of course, we should be at a higher level, i have my own rules and i say, you know what, i have a hygiene test. i will have an election dinner on the show means i called in to be a lot of republican politician who i might want to interview. but i don't want to give a platform to people who say, terabyte isn't the president. i don't want to give a platform to climate change denies holocaust denies. just i'll argue with anyone people, you know. mean i love arguing, but i have to draw a line somewhere. i would argue reality. i'm not gonna argue up his down hot. his cold, black is why not argue with conspiracy? there's, you're right, i will follow in the mud with certain people with others. yes. but that's kind of that's, that's kind of big. the big abstract point. the specific point is you can't avoid some of these people more. we live in a well. now where, you know, there was a time when a lot of people say to me, well, you know, you do what you do. i'm going to keep my head done. none of us can keep our heads

down anymore if you're in the united states, for example, as we are right now, democracy is existentially threatened. one of the 2 major political parties has been taken over by near fascists, cultist conspiracy theorists. authoritarians the scenario which you can say, well, you know, i'm just gonna my, my business. that's for them. this is for me know, the arguments coming to you whether you want to or not. what i find frustrating is i see liberals left is progressive, small di democrats, who may have the facts and the figures. we've got the truth, but they can't persuade other people. they don't know how to convey it to others, no point having all the knowledge and all the facts and all the wisdom if you can't get across to the people who need it. so i'm saying, great, have you a wonderful fact have your highbrow combinations. but at some point, yeah, you're going to have to push back against the people i called dish gallup is in the book. the people who just want to knock you down with misinformation. you're going to have to push back. one of the things you talk about is knowing the audience, how important is to recognize who you're talking to. what does that mean in

practical terms in terms of engaged media conversations on controversial? so, i mean, it's interesting, we're sitting here on out there, english, a global audience is watching us when i do my show every week it's mainly an american audience watching me. so as a journalist, you tailor your message to who's in front of you and i would argue not just as a journalist as any person in a public forum or even a private form. if you're around the dinner table with your maga loving uncles thanksgiving, you are going to take a different approach to convincing that model of uncle as you all with maybe an auditorium full of students at your university or college, or in a board room at work. i'm not saying me to face, i'm saying say the same thing you want to say make the same argument, have the same beliefs and principles, but taylor them to who is in front of you know, who your audience. so for example, if i'm dealing with an american audience, and i'm talking about afghan stop, right, i'm going to talk to the american, i want to make the case to be africa was wrong, and joe biden was right to pull out, which i did on my show i want to make the case along the lines of this cost, the american public,

a great deal of blood and treasure. that doesn't mean i also don't believe it cost afghans a lot of life is it destroyed? i've got to start. it was a geopolitical bank. now, those are all great, but what's the number one argument i'm going to make to my viewers. this didn't help you. right? because they're the people that scares me just a little bit. because part of the challenge of this is when people tell their message to audiences in the kinds of here describing it's neil, fastest moment. this authoritarian moment is that they're playing to people's fears also to their biases. and so if we live in a world where africa lives are disposable already, and we only focus on the budget that, you know, certainly. so we prioritize, but it's also about it. prioritize. it's about you need to get your message across to people. you need to convince a skeptical person you need to get through the door. and what i'm suggesting in the book is here are some trips can techniques to get you through the door. once you're through the door. yes, bring up everything else, bring up the cost to africa lives, bring up the geopolitical problems. how do you get through the door? we live in a world where the door is shut, fall too often these days were very, very power on. people don't want to hear a liberal, if they're conserved,

they don't want to hear because out of their liberal. and also i would just say, you say player pupils, i says, that's the world we live in march. this is a very practical book. it's not in for, it's not written for kind of ancient greece, utopian debate chambers is written for the real world. and i say in the real world, people are biased. people are afraid, people do feel their way towards a conclusion. they don't rationally think their weight was good. that's who i'm dealing with while that's how i have to adapt. so it is, let me ask eunice, isn't that the same argument the trunk could make. okay. i think immigration really is better. i think we do any better border security, so i'll tell them they're taking your jobs or they're sitting criminals rapes across the board, cuz that's what their fears are. that's what their biases are. and so therefore, i can appeal to my audience, you know, and in, in my, my fear about that is that, it, it, it reinforces the, my question to you that mom is, what do you do in response? because trump doing that anyways, right. and he's doing it masterfully as much as we might laugh at his lack of you know, eloquence and his ignorance, et cetera. he does know how to press the right buttons. he doesn't know how to rouse a crowd,

he does now to get people to the police station. he does it in the darkest way possible. he appeals to our worst emotions, fear, loathing paranoia prejudice. i'm not saying appeal to the same emotions. i'm just saying. appeal to emotion, but you know, for example, if you're a liberal or leftist, you can inspire people with hope. we're solidarity with a common vision of a shared future. yeah. but inspire people. how do you do that and still hold on if you even want to, to these sort of traditional journalistic principles of objectivity distance in the book? a very clear pathos is the way to go. yes. appealing to the emotions as you saying . now, how do you do that, but also hold on to some sense of journalistic objectivity so that your 2nd chapter is about appealing to emotion and pathos as aristotle. but at the 3rd chapter is on logos is i'm fact, i'm not saying dropped the facts. i'm not kelly and conway alternative to i'm saying facts matter, feelings matter, feelings tend to matter more than fact. so go ahead with feelings, but make sure facts follow you the way through. you know, anyone who knows who, who's watch the show knows. i love my facts, i love my receipts and the chapters will show your receipts one of my favorite,

when i come and say, you know what? i'm the go says to, you know, whoever it is. you said this in 2009. how can be said that i've got, i've got the transcript right here. that's what i've known for i. so i'm not saying drop facts. i'm say we need all that. but you know, you mentioned the objectivity. it's a word i struggle with these days because i think journalists have hidden behind this abstract idea of objectivity to avoid having to take some important moral positions like what the, what the classic example were in the u. s. for several years while trump was present, journalist would not say the word lie. they would not say the word races because they were taught in j school. you don't say stuff like that, you don't question watson. someone's heart. you play both sides. and i say no, it took a long time for people to realize we live in an authoritarian moment. you have to be able to call ally, ally, and you what times is use racially tinted race device. that's the renter's, right? we're letters. so now slowly, some journalists are realized, as you need to be able to call things out for what they are, the truth is more important, objectivity, factual reality is more important. and if you're defining objectivity, some mid point between the 2 parties, one of the 2 parties is now an authoritarian,

anti democratic movement. so you don't really want to be in a midpoint by the way. we, as journalists, mark, we have a bias. we have a bus to the truth. we have a bus to reality. we have a bus to democracy, we can't function as a free press for the state. if democracy doesn't exist, the people that i am an unbiased journalist, no, you should have some biases. they're important, absolutely, acknowledging what they are acknowledging with absolute how much of this is a u. s. then you talk about sort of being in the us and u. k at different moments. how much of this is particular to the rise of trump and whatever's going on here? i think it's very global when i talk about trump's america. i'm also thinking, you know, his israel, other ones, turkey moody's, india old and hungry putin's russia. you know, the u. k. on the birth johnson visual, when he was and the party is still doing some i read just things. but also when i sat in that c and i interviewed ministers from around the well visiting, i noticed in 20172018. every time i would interview administer from an african government and asian government,

they sounded like trump. they did the said they had the same verbal text. they were using the same tactics, the same fake news, the same trying to overwhelm you with a bunch of nonsense. it wasn't just trump and trump, and people that i was interviewing. it was people around the world who are saying cynically that works what that guys doing in america that works. so this is a global problem. sadly, for global media, you've had a lot of people to account in this very studio. in your book, you give lots of examples from up front and out 0. what is your, i guess, favorite memory of a debate? you head? one of my favorite memories, i tell it in the book was standing right behind you with that monitor talking to a man named steve rodgers. not captain america. sadly, but a trump advisor in 2018. and it was, he was doing the gish gallup. what i said about he was trying to just throw lots of nonsense and use up the time and make him move on. and what i say in the book is you need to do 3 things to start that you need to pick your battle in need to not budge, need to call it out because i didn't he, he wanted to avoid the discussion where the trumpet lied. about 16 steel mills and

i, i kept to sticking to that, pick my battle. i didn't budge. i said no talk to me about 60 miles and he wanted to move on. and one point he said, just move on as i know. and i call that said you want me to move on because you know, it's a lie, i'm never going to say to le, okay, well, where the 60 mills, that was me saying everyone does their own way of trying to take these people on. it's very hard to take these people are, here's a possible way that you can do. and i say to my fellow journalists here is a one way you can do it. and we're getting to 2024. all these gish gallup is going to be back on our a line enough. the line up here is one way of trying to stop them dead in the middle of you are a gish gallup or stopper to be sure you get a t shirt is amazing book of everybody takes it out mad. the so good to see you wasn't bad. yeah. it's been a pleasure. mar. yeah, we were interviewed the time that makes me happy. everybody. their human. why to that is our show up front will be back. ah

ah. i may own urgency over a year after a jazeera journalist, sharina bought fay was murdered despite international outrage and multiple investigations implicating israeli forces. we ask why justice has not been served fault lines examined the ramifications of julia and associates publications of us basically. and what the case against him could mean for press freedom after leading to key for 3 decades. reggie tie you into that is facing perhaps, is toughest election yet as a recollection of opposition parties, folks to unceasing nigeria is to hold its 1st census in 17 years, an exercise likely to view ethnic tensions in africa's most populous nation. the

united kingdom celebrates the coordination of can cause a 3rd as his crown at westminster abbey may on al jazeera, a meeting of minds or over the world. we have this, the rise of info learns the climate catastrophe. where do you put the resulting anger? well, i'm hoping we can use that as the fuel to change society for the matter. musical innovative brian ino meets renowned economist hygiene chang part to i thought for myself, the funniest economies in the world. i don't have any competition to j. b unscripted on al jazeera in the wilderness of northern scandinavia, a sammy activist, fight for indigenous rights, with a needle and thread. after 4 decades of her historic struggle against the establishment, the nomadic, some people now face their greatest threat. climate change.

witness status for stop me on al jazeera. ah mm. mm. no food, no water, no electricity, no internet. the situation in sudan gets worse with the fighting now in its 10th day. ah, eyeballing sight, this is all their life and dough or so coming up. police in kenya examine the remains of follow as of a christian call to they believed would go to heaven.