sion st from mexico last month that killed 40 migrants now they carry crosses and banners to remember those who never see the u. s. but i see him on target probably a little what now we have decided to move forward in his journal because of to, for, to people who dark beer, who are settled. fire officials are murders, but they don't want to migrate from our countries. and we want justice. oh, even if they make it to the us border, entering the united states is not easy. tough immigration policies are making it harder for my grants to claim asylum. and after spending days and weeks on the road, these children and their families may well be told to go back. andrea from vague al jazeera, thousands of indigenous people, and brazil have rallied in the capitals to demand want protection of their lands. ah,

martin brazilians part of the annual free land encampment event. indigenous communities are both to current policies, which is a threatened their traditional lifestyle. ah, hello, this is al jazeera and these are the headlines a 3 day true spoken to by the u. s. as now, in effect between warring science ensued on several previous sci fi agreements between the army and the rapids. support forces have collapsed, at least $427.00. people have been killed in 10 days a fighting. when you look at the southern sides of the capitol, the south eastern sides, for example, there is heavy or rapid support forces. troops presents around that vicinity. and when you look at the northern side of the capital, there are some are or so for our forces present as well. and that's the scene of intense fighting between the rapid support forces, amber sudanese army. but the army has also been making advances in some of these

areas, trying to push back the rapid support forces, seemingly trying to circle them into a specific area. dozens more bodies have been found in eastern kenya on land owned by the leader of a religious cult. the current count is 73, with the number still rising. with ours, he say they believed the victims starved themselves to death. the pastor is in police custody. at least 12 people have been killed in 2 explosions and a police station in north west pakistan. another 50 people have also been injured. please say it isn't clear if the explosions were an accident or the result of an attack. rose's russian foreign minister, sergey la roth, is accused the west of what he calls abandoning diplomacy. when it comes to the war in ukraine, he chaired a un security council meeting where russia currently holds the rotating presidency . un secretary general antonio gutierrez said that moscow is causing mass of suffering in ukraine visible. although the headlines i'll be back with another bulletin here, few after the stream to stay with us. talk to al jazeera,

we ask who is really fighting this russia? is it wagner? or is it the russian or military? we listen, we started talking to ma'am, i understand that this. yeah, i know it isn't. he shook to get him back. we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter on out you, sir. hey welcome to stream. i'm josh rushing money in your pocket. no strings attached. sounds too good to be true, right? but supporters of universal basic income say providing unconditional payments to citizens would help with millions out of poverty amid uncertainty over the future jobs. so today we're looking at initiatives that have been child around the world. we want to ask if basic income programs. well, they're ready for a larger audience. ah.

joining us today from new york is guy standing, his co president of the basic income earth network and the author of the pro carry it. the new dangerous class seems oak. as a documentary filmmaker who's film free money examines the impact of a basic income program on people who rule kenya, he's in nairobi. and eleanor o donovan is an artist receiving funds through irelands recently launched basic income for the arts initiative. she's on iceland, east coast, and hey, well more see to the stable that you, if you're watching this on you to get me your questions that box over there, we got live producer, wait and get your questions to me. so i can get them to the people on the panel and you know what, we could do the sing together, right? so join me in this, are ai i want to begin with you of the new book, the precarious. what is a precarious tell us about this dangers class? well, actually my new book is about how to pay for the basic income. but the precarious has gone into 4 editions and has been translated into 24 languages. and basically,

the precarious is the big mass class of the world, the bay. and it consists of millions of millions of people who are facing chronic instability in their lives on the stable labor, low and volatile incomes, and are chronically in debt one mistake one accident while they melt illness and they're out homeless or they think that so that people facing extreme precariousness and then losing the rights of citizenship, the losing social rights, the losing cultural rights, the losing economic rights. and fundamentally, the most important thing for this conversation is that they feel like supp pickens, the feel as if they have to ask the favors from landlords from employers, from relatives or bureaucrats dealing with them. and this, this is a terrible, existential way of living,

in which millions of people are getting very angry. the less educated listen to the voices of populist extremists, like donald trump. the more progressive educated group are looking for a new politics on these people are drawn to basic income. and it's a very important development because we now have a mass class, which is really in favor of basic and gum, and the opinion polls all over the world. are showing that while k eleanor. so you're an artist, you're at a you can explain it better than me, but an art ah, retreat or something right there in iceland. but before that you were in ireland and were you able to, i guess, produce art at the same way that you do now before you were chosen for the u. b. i trial there. yes, so this month i am on an artist residency and i said, but i do you live in ireland and and before i was randomly selected to be

a participant in the basic income for the arts. and in ireland, i was working part time to be able to support myself to pay for my rent and then also to support myself as an artist in the studio. and so getting the basic income is like winning the lottery. you know, it's, it's been hugely transformative already for by our practice and just for my general life and sense about being, i think. yeah, but i'm looking at you in that art studio and i'm just thinking like, this seems good for humanity that you can actually dedicate more time in your life to something creative than just trying to survive in a capitalist economy. it has it enriched your life in that way? yeah, absolutely. i mean, i love what i do and i was always grateful to be able to do it. even if i could only have spent 2 or 3 days a week. do i guess what, what this means is that i can kind of relax a bit and i guess something that is quite relevant to being an artist is that you need time to you and spend in the studio and to spend thinking it to kind of not

necessarily be productive or to do stuff that doesn't necessarily look productive and, and having the basic, it just means that i have this luxury now of time where i can sort of relax and think more about what i making. so has really just been phenomenal. yeah. it just speaks to humanity, the sense that we can be more than cogs in a machine that's design purely to make profits. um, so co who's with us is a film director. he has this movie called free money. i want to share a clip with you, but he follows a number of people in a kenyan, a rural kenyan village could go. could you do that? right? and you followed him for how long. so go for 5 years through the trials are right? yep. my codec. good night, lauren: i'm full of them for 5 years and tassels. let's watch this clip together. ah,

[000:00:00;00] i am leaving my room. so it strikes me there so that this is so powerful in their life that they, they attribute it to, to god, god has seen those and blessed us, but really it's, it's more just a matter of economic policy. it's a matter of people getting together within a society or an economy and saying, hey, we could approach this a little differently, right? i think it speaks to the depth of poverty and the depth in weeks luck takes you to the turning into faces like religion and all this other because the level of the

ration and i think the idea and in this case the following funding and leads that the concept of implementation of a u. b, i was to uplift people from extreme poverty. i think it's kind of been level where you, you just need might need to do, you know, basic to do basic things. you know, food, shelter, common education, the things that can just shouldn't be a no brainer in terms of if you think about it, the thing is as humanity. however, a lot of people are put in a space where these are not the systems that exist structure that exist. i'm not beneficial that are not helpful. i think because those structures are not helpful to be like the idea of them getting a consistent income every single month is a total game into a gut. you said in your book, me about how to pay for it. yeah. tell us what renters all the money come from you

asking me this, i'm asking you this guy. well, a, my, my feeling is that we can pay for a basic income of a modest amount quite easily. if you think about it, governments hand billions, in the case of rich countries, billions of dollars or whatever it is in subsidies that mainly go to rich people tax breaks and so on. my own countries though a 400000000000 pounds a year. if you pay to everybody in bonnie's basic inc, gum, you'll be much less than that. but i'm also advocating eco fiscal policies of levies on people who take from the commons. and that includes having a carbon levy. we need a carbon, lenny, but the guy can only have a common levy if we recycle the income gain from the carbon levy. because otherwise it's regressive. in other words, it increases inequality. but we need a carbon tax. we need

a high carbon tax because we've got to cut down on fossil fuels and greenhouse gas emissions. we can't go on as we've been doing. so i don't think the affordability is really critical on the, i'm on the outline, various ways you can have a pay for it. and the important thing from our conversation is that to get governments to move in the direction of having a decent basic income for everybody. our pilots and i've been involved in 6 or 7 pilots altogether. a pilots show the, the net cost is much less than the gross cost. what that means is that because it improves people's health, for example, its place is less stress, a stress on the health services. it reduces the cost of providing public health services. so governments gain by saving money the same with education,

it improves educational attendance, educational performance, and therefore makes it a better investment. so you really shouldn't look at the back of envelope calculation. you should look at what other net returns and the dynamics of a moving towards a basic in gum as the anchor of a new welfare system soccer. and you want to jump in the i yes, i think the idea of whether basic income was or not is in many ways irrelevant because it kind of stems from they historic discriminatory thinking of where as a society like we have a, i hate for poor people and it's like the idea that people who need to lead better life who have the ability to lead better lead becomes very complicated. the issue at hand, that is something that kind of like things that have to be talked about. i think even with the giving of basic income, it is not exactly

a silver bullet because unless you have better health care and then you have better education. and if you have all these amenities that are available, 3 and capable of helping people and making life, you know, ok for people to exist and then we, we kind of end up just going round and round in circles discussing whether it's okay for people to have a certain level of income to support their basic existence. that's kind of a sad reality, i think. and unchecked capitalism and the pilot. you're talking about guy. these are experiments that have happened all over the world. no one's really taking this on as a, as a permanent economic policy. and eleanor, you right now are i don't want to call it a lab in the cage year part of the experiment. and i'm curious, how do they measure in your life? the impact that has had on you yes. really just to touch back on was and the others are saying about the affordability of it. i mean this is

a pilot and ireland of 2000 people were getting paid for 17 grand a year for 3 years. i think it work cited by 25000000 a year, which is really just a drop in the us. and in terms of, you know, irelands vogis and, but the benefits are just astronomical. i mean, like how they m records the impact of the basic ink of the survey. and it has only been 6 months since we have only had to do the survey once. and they'll ask you questions about, you know, how much time have you been able to spend making, how much time have you been able to spend researching opportunities? but they also ask you questions like, how much sleep do you get to night, like per night? how many areas do you spend carrying after children or like algebra, relatives, or you know, etc. so they really do take into account and the, the well being of the people who are receiving this basic income. and it's something that was, you know, it didn't just come out of nowhere. it was advocated for. there's the national campaign for the arts and ireland, which are really pushing for this basic incom trial. and i mean,

i should point out that it's not a universal piece of income. it's really just a very, very small sector of people working in ireland and bus, you know, focusing as well, an artist productivity on their well being. i think it's probably the most productive way of looking at what you're not alone here eleanora in are you tube audience? richard forest says that he's on the same u. b. i program the year on italy's he thinks he has and he says he knows other artists in that program and they feel so supported guy. i don't see that you wanted to jump in, and i'm thinking about eleanor getting more sleep at night and wondering who's profiting off of her sleep. well, 1st of all, i mean we, we now have an enormous amount of evidence because there have been over a 150 pilots and experiments. the mayor's scheme in the united states is a really exciting initiative. 50 my as the signed up to do basic inc. number experiments, we done

a huge basic income pilot in india where thousands of people were given a basic income when we evaluated it by comparison with people similar people who weren't receiving it. and we found improvements in nutrition improvements in health improvements in health care improvements in work. and one of the biggest issues that keeps coming up is this claim that if you had a basic income, it would reduce people's work. well, i want, i want your listeners to listen very carefully to what i have to say in the next couple of seconds. basic income results in an increase in work and more productive activities in work and more collaborative and co operative forms of work. the evidence is overwhelming, and it's very important that we scotch that. but somehow if you have basic security,

you're going to become indolent on the country, you feel more energized, you feel more confident. do you feel more like taking entrepreneurial risks in your domain of life? and you care with care is work, it just isn't county does work in all statistics, but this one to kill us. and it's, it's a feminist issue. it increases the amount of time that people can put in to care for their loved ones that communities are. it's a sales, almost 2 years that be true. it sounds good to be true. so but listen, you mentioned that this does happen in america. i want to bring a one clip and i will come back to you guy. but this clip is from a p and is looking stockton, california, where the mayor barbara at brother d e v. i very sherman there, there checked us out. i'm surprised an a val just how many people are struggling. these are people with good jobs, small business owners, teachers, retired people,

union members who are struggling, who are working hard, doing over and live on topler jobs, not seeing their kids. i think other health that when he gets here that he said mine, and right now my car, i got a car accident and my car and i told him so i didn't know car payments and now i have a car payment. and at many, i know it's not gonna be forever. they put me a foot in the door to get a car and also to get the payments paid until the money runs out. so, so much of this seems to be about like our perception of something and so on going back to you here where it's like in capitalism, we blame the poor. and that's a part of the game as a part of the system that we need to blame the poor. how do you, how do you get over that mindset? how do you get people over that mindset? i can sam sam 1st i think

it is then in not only speaking about experiment preaching about what's happening and watching the stories of the people who have gone through them. but at the same time and experiment that we were following the challenges and intended consequences wasn't necessarily based on the fact that there is to be in some experience in the money than intended. consequences were in things like say, the sources of the money kind of came come through a donor system and kind of like it's based on the past experiences that a lot of people have had in the continent with, with don't the funding and the lack of sustainability with that kind of system, it means that it's, it's not sustainable in its implementation, in this baseline. because you have to involve government and this money has to be involved in together kind of like collectively in the level in how the money kind

of comes through to the people. and at the same time, it can be implemented in one spot and you do interpreted message in another part because you all of us that is that creating class structure, that's what makes it so in these are intended consequences in implementation of the experiment. and that's why we should talk, experimenting, if we're implementing programs, we should just implement program. because like i said, will of an over run with experiments? i think we're done with experimenting. why the hell are we still experimenting? what are we experimenting tool? it's a perception issue at this point rather than i think. so as a society main obstacle is political now. josh, i think we have enough evidence from around the world, different types of countries. we can afford it because we can afford all sorts of schemes. as we saw during the cove it pandemic. when government suddenly were able to flushed, put money into companies,

amend 0 interest rates and furlough schemes, billions of dollars and euro's was spent. then they suddenly that they had that money. it's not a question of not being able to afford it. we have to be fiscally responsible, but it's affordable. i think we have to go back to why we want a basic inc. and the fundamental reasoning is ethical. it's festival a matter of common justice. the income and wealth of every single one of us, including all of us in this program, is far more to do with the efforts and achievements of all preceding generations than anything we do ourselves. but we don't know whose parents, grandparents and previous generations contributed more or less. so in a sense, you could see a basic inc come as a sort of common dividend on the collective wealth. now

a very interested that the pope during cove it came out in favor of a basic income the 1st time the catholic church was come out, family in favor and read. if you're religious, you can say that god gave us unequal talents, unequal skills, and in a sense of basic income is a compensation for those who don't have the talent of making a lot of money. but also, we realize that basic income gives people basic security. and basic security as the human need, as a public boat. and if you don't have basic security, your mental i q, those down, the psychologists have shown us that. so in a sense, giving people basic security is a way of saying you are a citizen. then you can behave, but if your chronic be insecure,

it's unfair for us to expect somebody to behave in a way we might like them. they got to behave just to survive. and basic security is fundamental. and finally, ethically, every politician i've ever heard speak says they're in favor of freedom, but you can't be free if you're chronically an insecure and impoverished and in debt. so can only be angry if you have access to the material resources so that you can make decisions. hey, i want to bring a quick video away, morgan, we're running out of time and the show, and i want to ship this conversation. there may be a little bit more forward looking ah, here check this out. we'll discuss it after. ah, i'm in the line

with law. the other music in that that's massive attack. that's a video that they actually did with the guy. it's got over 3000000 years. it wasn't the video i wanted you to see that i wanted to bring in this video off a tick tock. check this out. what you were looking at is advanced farms. most reasonable harvester, which can take up to 30 apples and one minute, which is amazing, but it's an incredible reminder of how about 2055. over half of all the current jobs will be replaced by automation and over half of the global population will be unemployed. with no real way to generate income help mean which people use to say, leach was massive, creative renaissance, but now we have a i 2nd jerry artwork that sells for hundreds of thousands of dollars using papers and soon to be novels escripts to permit of economy from completely collapsing, governments are going to have to start having

a u. b. i to everyone that will be enough to cover all basic living needs. so okay, shipping the a i, he was saying half half the jaws by 2050. something are going to be taken away by automation or, or a i, as we look at the changes that are coming in the future. eleanor i, i see that that, that struck a chord with you. what, what do you think about that? i mean, i just think it's so hilarious to bring the ai image generation into the conversation about iris because, you know, irish has so much more than, you know, selling an image that could hang above. so one sofa and one another. eleanor albany interrupt because we only have a few minutes. it's not about the image generation. it's about a i replacing lawyers, maybe some nurses and doctors like all the things the a i that that chat g p t can do better than he laws. ok. yeah, i think there's 2 levels in which you can look at the composition of the i probably as brought there in the, in the conversation. but the last couple of years. however, the 1st challenge of looking at which is using

a i in deciding who gets money or not, which is a super problematic situation because human beings and they were very dynamic and there's something very different about. so using that technology and i think it's happening and it's already taken place. but at the same time, i think replacing or the changing jobs and determining whether this is the particular problem for us to fight and even poverty. it should not come to that, like, hey, like, oh my god, i've gotta jump in because i've got less than a minute left. and sam or guy, i don't have time to to go to you. i'm sorry. and i know guy wanted to get into point about one of the things you b, i does is giving everyone money. people are much less likely to be exploited. if they have the money they need to live on. so it can be very empowering and i will, should have gotten to that point during the show. but now what an interesting topic . thank you for joining us. that's all the time we have for today. when i think my guess guy, so go on eleanor. and for you,

you can always find this is stream dot al jazeera dot com. thank you for watching. ah ah, here's from al jazeera on the go and me tonight, out is there is only a mobile app is there for you. this is where we dissects analyze. i look to find what's going on, i guess, going from algy, there is a mobile app available in your favorite app. do just that for it and tapped them

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