this is more just with where humanity defies expectations where freedom is always worth fighting. bold and untold stories from across asia and the pacific. 101 east. on out jazeera to week, the violence of plunder, sudan into turmoil. hundreds of people have been killed and tens of thousands of flip. the country is home to more than $500.00 ethnic groups and as rich and natural resources. are these factors linked to the conflict? this is inside story. ah. hello and welcome to the program. i'm tom mccrae, sedans people are once again living in fear,

suffering the consequences of all out conflict between the army and paramilitary rapid support forces. the cause is multi pronged sudan, has a troubled history. it's diverse population is composed of different ethnicities and societal groups. and it is rich and natural resources will be speaking to our panel of guests about how these factors could be influencing the current fighting and so downs future. but 1st to alex beer has this report. 2 weeks of waking up to the sound of air strikes and gunfire, sudanese, a course up in a battle that's been in the making for a long time. a political power struggle routed and ethnic and regional divisions. further complicated by the fight for control over natural resources such as minerals and oil. at the center of the conflict, a 2 generals, the head of the army, abdel fata albert han, and the commander of the rapid support forces. mohammed hummed on the gallow known as had mid t, both men or north africa fairly well, and this has been going on,

right? so this is not a conflict, i guess book. and so i am optimistic that they leave as that the a you have to get that. what if god is both to yield some rain, but it's going to be a bit forward. but su, done his more than $500.00 ethnic groups. and politics has long been dominated by any lead based and around her tomb. but han has traditionally gone and support from his fellow sudanese arabs, while humidity has a significant face among non arabic ethnic groups and waste and su, done including the food. this is partly because he's from a non arab tribe. the mohammed both sides have tens of thousands of fights, is foreign back is and vast resources at the disposal. the army controls most of the economy, but the paramilitary group, overseas gold, mining areas. the country is africa is 3rd largest producer of the precious missile

. and in 2021 about 90 tons of gold on the global market came from sudan. it also has deposits of copper i in car. mm hm. and uranium, as well as abundant arable land, which supports the agriculture dependent the economy through don is located on the nile river vital for irrigation and hydro, electric power generation was shared with egypt and e. c. o pierre at borders. another 5 countries, nearly all of which a maya and conflicts, the country has strategic ports on the read. see the only points of export for around $135000.00 barrels of oil a day. most of it from south through done. despite this, the united nations classified to don as a low income country. if this violence continues, it could spillover and effects, regional access to water, mineral exports, and oil supplies. and then these, the unfolding humanitarian crisis, the fighting has killed hundreds of people and injured thousands. there's

a shortage of food and fuel and hospitals are out of service. many countries have evacuated, the citizens and tens of thousands of people have played, all of which is pushing a base a future for certain needs even further out of reach. alex bid from inside story. ah. okay, joining me now are our guests in montreal that colored madonna, associate professor of political science and his law, mac studies and chairman of the african studies program at mcgill university in cairo. roger macau. he, editor of africa, arguments a platform for news investigation, and opinion, and also of sedans, unfinished democracy, and here and our ha, we have a while leads madiba, the founder and president of the sudan policy for him. thank you very much for joining us. roger. if i could begin with you, you've just arrived in egypt after fleeing sudan, can you just give us

a brief explanation of how difficult that journey walls and, and how hot it was to to escape certain it's so it's very, very difficult. and the reality is it's in sudan or people living in cartoon. we've been kind of under threats of a conflict him bombardment for the last turn. 15 days or so. are all scrambling to the sudan soon with the and you know them so that route they know most and which they're familiar, which with which has egypt, they've got thousands and thousands of people who are on the same road, taking the same on the same road, taking the same routes towards the same kind of crossing points. the situation at the border is it isn't, but it is very kind of a difficult and protracted term in the crossing point itself or again,

is a and it's not. and then if human kind of, you know, a crossing point, it's a cargo and so it's not set up related to receive thousands and thousands of people every day. so you've got a situation where people have been in kind of spotting for weeks now. i mean, it took me a week to get through with the almost no access to and any of the basic and services that people need to maintain themselves or food is very, i mean there's no food and water. and i mean, there are no bathrooms and the security situation itself is quite dire. and you know, the state itself, on a case on the sudan side is not, i mean, it access to information in order to give you an update on what you need to do in order to get out. and it's not at the level that is required to help people move on

in a straightforward manner. yet, it's hard to imagine the difficulties that you and the tens and tens of thousands of other students have had to go through just to, to, to get to safety. but we are extremely grateful that you and your family are safe at this point in time. colored, i'd like to talk to you a little bit about ethnic divisions in sudan and, and how that might have played a role in the lead up to this conflict. i mean, is the simply a war between 2 generals basically buying for power and influence themselves, or do you think that there are deeper ethnic divisions to this conflict? i would say that it is not so much ethnic, but a political crisis, of course reflected in the competition, political and military competition between these 2 generals. but i think the notion that this is an ethnic conflict is some things that are oftentimes um, you know,

not corrected. there is no correlation in africa or sudan, frankly, if you don't mind me saying between the density and the number ethnic groups and, and conflict, and so as, as easy, it is, it, as it is to say and reduce this conflict to inter ethnic conflict. it's just not the case i would suggest, and my guest of course, can chime in that i historically, the issue in sudan is an imbalance between the center and the periphery. that actually gives us a much more, a better understanding not only of the present conflicts, but also the decades really. and particularly the last 30 years under the rule of a sheet in which the primary investment of the country, of course, of course, of 60 percent of the national budget under. but she went to the military. the remaining went to and very kind of limited geographical triangle around her to them around the river. we area specifically, i don't go and say that that just needs know full well. and that really had to do

with the concentration of power to stay at the level of the center of the state, the dates back to the colonial era. understanding it that way, that is the conflict. a historical one between center periphery can help you understand the conflict between, you know, the national army, of course, that is amanda by many from the central part of the country. and he met to himself from the so called periphery, but who does not necessarily represent, in fact, he does not represent the majority of that for you. and as you can imagine, in addition to that, that a kind of lens of looking at it from center and periphery. vantage point also helps us understand the issue and conflict in easton. so dad, as an example of a marginalized and cultural and politically and economically historically. and what we call the 2 areas of, of, of the fan and the blue nile. i'm understanding it between as a history a long history of imbalance between center for both in terms of you know, the absence of representation in terms of those in the margins,

but also the absence of economic investment in infrastructure. investment is really important. i want to conclude that, that my answer by saying actually we also have to understand demographic change to them itself, the greatest october area, which, you know, i think houses approximately, maybe 7 to 8000000. i need to check that number is actually extremely diverse. it's not the heart of the 19 fifties and sixties. it's a hot cold that encompasses all of the different ethnic groups. in other words, at the battle between these 2 generals is not hitting one specific ethnic group and another. it is hitting all of the ethnic groups from the entire country, all of whom have families and relatives in the greater la area. and i think that's really important to emphasize. yeah, well, what do you make of colors points there? i think it's very well said the and well put the, i just need to add some important points here. there are 3 levels to this conflict

. there is the conflict, conflicts you a issue, a personality issue between behind on humanity. and there is a dyslexia we would have to remember that humidity was, was used by sheer to again, is the army and the islamist use team as, as, as, as a part of military force that they could use any time. there is a code in cartoon. so there is this level and there is the 2nd level, which is the dynamics, the intended dynamics between the artist and the islamist groups. because we have to remember that i missed the day they have got under it from starting 1989. they started getting rid of the professional officers and they started ideology, isaac, the army itself, and a graduate lead. they moved all their defense,

a defense duties to their intelligence department. and when her at the civil war erupted in that ford they, they used the artist. if which was at that time, harrison, her daughter, ah, so there is that is this dynamics or the 2nd living at the fair blevins we have to remember very well that the social basis from which are janet and he media has been recruiting his forces are areas of that for an inside that for mainly or the other types. it's only recently that he has is started incorporating some indigenous the african tribes. so with the question is, are these, i mean, ironically these are the areas that are mostly rich in sudan. i mean, if you think about what the professor has just said, i can just add to it the dad the deep in order it to a to, to,

to grow agriculture in the sahara desert of north and sudan unit, $40000.00 per foot, then compared to only $134.00 in that for all could do fun. so it, we, we need to think about a marginalization about center, but they're fairly dynamics. but we can't ignore the fact that there is a historical tension between from the time of the medea, between the people of western sudan and the people of a sense that here are the people who are again, who have dominated the politics. one almost 70 years young and the doctor's union has just put out assignments saying that's at least 74 people have been killed and wistar for and dare that locals are they are now beginning to arm themselves believing that the conflict is inevitably going to reignite ethnic violence in the area. i mean how alarming is that raja do you think in and and do you think that

that is what is going to happen? i mean, it's quite alarming duffle has had a long, long history on a contract. and who's patrons are kind of, you know, shaped by the politics in the center, again, to adding to yet create, met and adopt and highlights points about kind of, you know, the center periphery kind of, you know, and framework or lance of trying to understand how, how to down functions, but i think it's also very important to look beyond the idea of ethnicity as just a racial marker. and entered on at necessity is a political construct. one that's been concocted, and driven by the state, with the purpose of constantly dating its power. and a central state that's quite meek was reach, is, is very limited, have sought to use a certain kind of ethnic groups in certain parts of the country to try and kind of,

you know, manage and punch the date power. when i think of ethnicity, that's what i think called a not you know people's mention marcus. yeah. yeah. khaled a minute. is the warri now that both the army and the record support forces. i basically go to recruit different groups, recruit diff, different ethnic minority minority, specified to fight one another on their behalf. is that what you think could happen? i, i think that that attempt at the period of my but she is that injection of interethnic hatred and even a racism on the part of the she that he use not only to help to execute his proxy war in that war, but also to put down the revolution, the pro democracy for the if you may recall it, that beginning of the uprising thing, not december 2018 and and early 2019. he accused the protesters of being from death

for interestingly enough, that was when the slogan could call in a dashboard where all from get for really emerged as a popular one, i think frankly in costume itself. if not elsewhere, there is the recognition that this is a political crisis in a typical competition between 2 generals representing their own interest and the interest of a small group of allies. in the case of general baton. of course, a form, a members of the national congress party indicate the committee, small group of, of militia. i know that the number is large, but these are paid and this is what we mean by the mercenaries. they're not actually recruited on the basis biology or the city they're recruited as a result of money being paid. and so i think that generally the students, people absolutely understand that this is not one of your ethnic conflict. in fact, that has been tried in the past, and so these are fully aware and you can see back and talk to them. i don't see that that is actually going to work. that doesn't mean it. the violence will

diminish or it will be little bit easier. these are very strong forces. i want to also add to a dock at that point in terms of how the city plays out to dan. i visited that for many times, even during the war. and i want to really be very clear the notion of arabs versus africans in dat 4, which is so popular and so easy. it's a marker from our experience and actually, you know, personal and also in other ways in terms of research as well, is really linguistic markers. and for that pound, in addition to that issues of economy, livelihoods, there is no other way to, to stand the history of intermarriage. i can tell you a number of different anecdotes when i was there in terms of the relationships between the different ethnic groups that, that identified based on their linguistic markers either either originally for or our or our language. so the issue of the pastor list versus, you know, non pass for the agricultural is really the primary way back for us to find

themselves. it's important because that's the only way we can understand issues of conflict resolution which are going to be so important. ok, i want to move on to saddam's natural resources, of course, which it has an abundance is gold, productive farmland, oil. all the things we mentioned in the story at the beginning of the program. and of course, the resources that the nile in the reads, the coastline throw off as well. well, laid, obviously this huge foreign interest and so down and they have been that many, many years. how is that impacting this current conflicts? do you think? ah, before answering that question, i would want to, i light something very, very, very quickly. i mean, if we look at the conflict from an anthropological or social, logical, or perspective, then what the professor at her said is absolutely right. but if we look at it from the political perspective that they're the government, the islamist group, as if in this i is politics and politics. heis is nifty. then we,

we look when we look at the id piece, we find 2500000 from historically indigenous african population basically miss elliot ford going due to daniel as of our. so here is where the conflict takes some sort of an ethnic deal. but to go back to our question, ah, which is very important. a wagner now with a gentleman, hey me, t they are doing explorations in, in southern that fall in the areas of sun go. and the dorm, are they the, they have a very big plot of land or from which they are exploring gold and embezzling indoor r, u e, or russia. and that, that he presents are almost 77 percent of so dance export of gold. so here if we look at the issue of gold, it's a, it's a very sensitive issue. you do have your any am in

a. 2 g battler noah or i would say in a nealon as an acre, some parts of donald could do fun. so that what makes the conflict a little bit there at the is, is the fact that the resources are in the areas that are mostly conflicts. well, if niss it, the wise, i mean the way that the islam is, have did even the conflict her as made it very difficult to separate the issue of ethnicity from the issue of resorts, a u. c. t live, we think of double armored a from weeds to him if he had been exploring gold 40 years at that belongs to a 17 tribe. i mean quote unquote the near scene. that weird driven away by a some out is a god grooves. and then later that the islamist or basically all martin bashir, the subdivided there is a god into mad maria and mohammed. so they have played

a very devilish, are drawn in at separating the if miss it is in that for and more importantly, more grevious the linking it to the issue of the sources. rush it, obviously egypt has a huge taken in what happens in sudan, not least because there's tens of thousands of people like yourself and your family that are, that are trying to flee to down and, and get into egypt. what is its interest there? at this point in time and, and we're, if any, does present ccs allegiance, lie to it, to which side means and should on you should be part of egypt until independence. and i think the ties are not just, you know, historically social communities kind of, intertwined through marriage and, you know, and as i took the right to move it, why can we not, but also the political system standards. political system builds to advise you to

be on a kind of the, the historical institutions that it, that it had been inherited from its ty and being under. from the time it was a condominium. and i'm being under the protection of a doctorate, of egypt, of sorts for this kind of, you know, translated in the more recent periods of kind of, you know, a problematic political relationship between and, and, you know, the 2 military leads and to egypt, you know, the the kind of, you know, system, political system and governance system has in place and it's relies to a large degree. i'm a kind of, you know, securing it south southern southern border and also securing kind of an ac was and i couldn't south a 2000 and military needs as well. so to systems based build on each other. if

khaled, i mean who's backing who here and why do you think which countries a, a back in the army in which of backing the record support forces at this point in time and, and how much influence do they have over both of both sides? well, i think in the case of egypt, it's very well known that in general, egypt is backing hon as an individual even if they are opposed to the remnants or rather that they stand missteps, form and members of the national conference party. because obviously egypt, it is opposed to their samus movements in egypt and in the region. nevertheless, this is america, convenience. egypt has always wanted a reliable from their perspective stable allies, the relationship between hon and cc close egypt ones that not only for strategic reasons, but also for economic reasons as well. and of course, the concern for them at the moment is, are the 9 waters and they are competition and conflict with the appeal. and that, of course, for egypt is an ex, essential kind of issue. so their relationship with hon at their counting on. and

i'm not sure that that's actually a good calculation, that somehow they could have a complete influence over him without having to deal with a slam as to the national congress party, and many of whom have been released from prison over the last few days. for example, so i think that egypt to find itself in a difficult situation in that respect, i think historically as you know, the united and lisa has assisted and supported him at 1st in 2015 when they utilized him as well as hong defend mercenaries to the war in yemen and of course that they have interest and have had in terms of the gold trait. there is no question there. that's not a secret. i do think calculations have changed the end of the war and yemen. i think the participation of the u. a, e and saudi arabia in the quad to over the framework as we meant. i signals that change and strategic kind of perspective having to do with the fact that instability is something that the way he of course and their allied saudi arabia is

concerned about out for a variety of reasons, including their interest in the red sea area and, and that's why they entered into negotiations. that's really important. daisha wagner in russia oftentimes is over sensationalized. i don't believe that russia has as much influence. and i think that my guests and have a perhaps different opinions. i do think that their relationship between gold and wagner group and, and him at the is important. i don't think he's the most important him and he has a wealth of other resources. and that's really important. all of that is to say that there are changes in the strategic calculations at the moment. i feel with the expansion of this conflict and, and the way that effecting that kind of strategic interest of all of these actors that had found their clients in sudan, deviously reliable as will lead them from my perspective. and i like to hear what the guest my colleagues say will have to lead them to actually try to do what they

can to stabilize the situation, at least in terms of succession of hostilities. and already we're seeing to statements about to political documents from these actors. yeah, we're, we're rapidly running out of time to, to finish with you. how does this conflict in and how soon do you do you think we hope you'll be able to return to sit down? and yeah, i'm hoping so. i mean my family by many on a sunday is their lives or is it are their houses. and that's where the children go to school, and most of us are, even if we live at dias more, we are connected to to 9 in many ways we will travel and you know, once or twice, i mean more than once. and so yes, i mean, i don't see like i'm hoping that the competency is because there is no kind of tangible, long time and kind of and can you say an alternative. otherwise we're talking about again and, and migration crisis. how, how, how people. oh,

my go was generation supposed to kind of exit, leave the country when you know in the seventy's, how are they supposed to kind of nissan. so, and so all these questions definitely you can say all of these issues are definitely going to raises, concerns about the need for somebody to and, and for people to be able to make it safe passage back to their home and their lives. okay, we're going to have to leave it there unfortunately, but thank you very much. all 3 of you for joining us holiday modality, roger mccully, and while lead debo, thank you very much for joining us on the inside story. and thank you to for what you can see the program again. any time by visiting our website, al jazeera dot com, if a further discussion go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle . is that a j inside story for me? tell mccrae and the whole team here,

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we revisit places, mistake. i'll just there are really invest in that. and that's a privilege. as a journalist, awe heavy fighting in central cartoon, despite a ceasefire deal between sedans, army and rocket support forces. thousands free sedan for safety, but agencies warning they're going to be running out of food for refugees arriving in chat. ah, i'm matheson and this is al jazeera alive from dough hop. also coming up try me as governor blames.