that is a story all heaps to be for the north west of bought swanner. we had a new old time temperature. high record set is on sunday just here, remaining high over the next few days. the laundry, hot and dry picture went to weather, however, effecting eastern areas of south africa. pulling away and leaving some sunshine in johannes book by wednesday night to weather update the shop to the head of the silencing of a renowned palace skimming american journalist, the people pouring a recent on the nation. and yet no accountability, a thorough investigation into the final moments of her life. and it's on time the end of the hands, if it's ready for the kidding, should be in a box on a jersey to after 12 years of civil war and government crunched down,

the arab league has reinstated syria. but some countries have expressed reservations. so does this end slash all the sides regional i summation? and what's next for syria and it's people. this is inside the hello and welcome to the program. i'm for the back people. syria has been excluded from the leak for more than a decade. now the shot aside and his regime have been welcome back. the move points to warming ties between syria and many of its regional neighbors. but critics say calls for accountability over the country civil war. and now fading. we look into this with our guests and just a few minutes, but for us this report from katya and will pay is hold on. it's

a move that could mark a new chapter for serious president 12 years after being pushed out of the arab league pressure all side. and his regime are now back in the fold to the admin most and your from this point, syria is a full member of the arrow bleach. if the country wishes it can occupy any seat that includes next week's arab summit and saudi arabia. if president bush out l a sod wishes to participate, he can do sorry for the syria was suspended after it's government cracked down on a popular uprising in 2011. that led to a civil war. more than half a 1000000 people have since been killed. millions of floods, some neighboring countries like lebanon and jordan, have struggled to cope with the refugees. with lack of support in the region also turned to a ran and russia. and with their help, he regained control of syria. at the heavy, this visited by runs,

president to damascus, has especially important in regards to international shift and what they mean for regional shift series or has created a humanitarian crisis and led to western powers and imposing sanctions. supporters of its return to the arab league say it will strengthen security and stability in the region and can stop other countries from expanding their influence. but critics a syria doesn't deserve to be re admitted. this is a sad day for anyone who cares about democracy. the rule of law and human rights. this is the, i'd be the patient one of the brutal, but most of most of the genes. this will not really bring more piece of stability to syria. on the, on the contrary, it probably this will be very destabilizing in the air league says reinstating serial marks the start of

a positive process that will help solve the countries longstanding crisis and its effects across the region. cod see a little bit so the again, for insight story the last spring, you know, i guess now for today's inside story in washington dc is oh my actual greet or syrian refugee now director for detainees. are phase at the syrian, imagine c task force. joshua elandis is the director of the center for middle east studies at the university of oklahoma. he joins us from there. and in milton keynes is, i'm or cough, director of nurses, a middle east think tank and a member of the british syrian society, a warm welcome to old gentlemen. thank you so much for joining us. omar in washington dc. let me start with you and ask you about your reaction as someone who's suffered at the hands of a syrian regime, you were in detention for 3 years. what does syria being re admitted to the bleak

mean to you? firstly, as an error of i will find it very difficult to believe that the arrow blake exists to support the our populations, but rather to support they are brutal rulers and, and leading politicians now as a cillian, despite the fact that i don't believe and it could not see, there are a league as an ally of the student people as to cannot but feel disappointed and betrayed because a play as you know, you can always see the, the rulers or the advert. our governments talking about morality and brotherhood and generosity cartridge and now when it comes to actions, they always support the the evil. i'm ok, let me ask you for your thoughts. so my says he feels disappointed and the trade. what are your thoughts about this decision to re admit special a size regime and how does this benefit to syria and b r breach as well. um, 1st of all, this is like a problematic move, so to speak,

in the upstate or at least certain our states have tried to topple the government in damascus. they failed. they must have a fine, you know, a different way it happened in yemen as well. they must sit and negotiate the most 3. it made the days for dreaming about, you know, getting rid of us out. i think got over. everybody realizes that. so the only course of action is just to sit and try to talk him with him and try to seek his help, help him help them and you know, solve different problems they might have in the region. as far as the syrian people, i think there was a light at the end of the tunnel. finally, the largest factor of the pool getting out of syria this moment in time, which is affecting all neighboring countries, so to speak. that's alone. europe is the bad economic situation that he's aggravated by the sanctions and people and say, we have to leave that, you know, once you warm up preparations with the out of world. and probably things are going

to be a get better, at least on the economical side, which would stop allies, the situation inside syria and to bring them a little bit more stability on old side. all right, uh, joshua elandis, let me ask you for your thoughts. and uh, before i, i'll get back to omar, who seems to disagree with you. um, uh, joshua omar says a mazda is why does that this is a pragmatic move? the regional calculus certainly seems to have shifted. what do you think is driving this need to rehabilitate specialist not to? well i don't, i don't think anybody's interested in rehabilitating the shuttle outside. but when we think of the 16000000 people, a syrians who are been left behind and are suffering terribly from civil war sanctions and poverty, 90 percent of the syrians are living below the poverty line sections are not working. freezing outside of the regime out is not working, it hasn't hurt outside of this is it doesn't bring justice to us on this brands injustice to the syrians. and i think the airbrush teams have seen it that way. you

know, you can choose your friends, but you can choose your neighbors and they have many outstanding issues that they want us to get solved. things such as the cap, the gun trade, the return of refugees trying to decrease the ron's and rushes influence in the region, trying to get occupying powers like turkey united states, out of syria and return sovereignty to syria. all those issues can be addressed unless they're dealing with the government. and that's, you know, i think that's the bottom line that they want to deal with the government. they see the suffering of the syrians that we saw with an earthquake. and they believe that that, that's the only way forward because sanctions have failed and the us doesn't have a policy to bring us up to justice. if it did, i think they would pursue it. and that's why this is going on for so many years. the, the sanctions without any real push back. alright, omar, your,

your response to this, i'm, are, says that this is the light at the end of the tunnel for syrians. joshua says that freezing the regime hasn't really worked and that dealing with the government is the only way forward. what do you say to that? what i would say is that the situation has killed hundreds of thousands of people displays millions and you know, and presents. so many and now these people are still under torture. you know, there is over 130000 people being tortured on a daily basis. you cannot talk about a political solution or a solution for the people on the ground and a way to do it for the refuses to return back. if you're keeping the same reason for the refuse in place, which is the strong, the government. the sandwiching does not change, and if it's behaviors, so you cannot go and negotiate with any wish investment, not willing to change anything, but they're wishing, then even apologized for the statements that made it, that it made a guess. they are governments for many years. you know, calling them the exporters of terrorists and the, the,

the half man and the trash and so on the soon as you is not willing to negotiate and by welcoming, distinguishing back your building, this conversion that you can kill your way to power. you can even telling every era ruler that you actually can kill rape and torture your citizens one by one. and you will still be welcome back. the ceiling. the only way for the, for the solution is to raise back countable, except as soon as you can and let me touch base on the question of functions you understand the impact of functions. when you remove them. if you remove the functions, you're giving so many ways for the regime to fund it's the machines. that's our biggest problem. and as soon as you can, it's has the power to go, people and free lift. they've function. the regime will have so many ways of funding its operations. that's why we keep this sanctions. mm. am i your thoughts about this and is the syrian regime is president best not willing to resolve the conflict today? is he willing to negotiate with the opposition? is he willing to, to get some consensus? i don't think that they will ever be consensus. let me,

let me just tell you that at the very start of this conflict to this is, you know, march the 2011. i heard a narrative. this is the 1st day of the so called revolution, some guy, a carrick, and bonnie else goes up and reads the list of the minds of the 1st of which to separate boys and girls in the schools. now, for some people this, you know, speaks of democracy and human rights. to me, it's the opposite. we have to admit that the syrian people are split on either the motives of the resolution. and the way he was carried out, and of course, the, the loan, the, the international and regional intervention. so how to solve this problem. you have people in cedar, who from the one results to supporting the government because they wanted to protect themselves. these are the constituents of the government. nothing is going to happen unless they are happy or the document is asked was by it is anything

going to change on the government side? is it going to make concessions to my understanding is that there are preparations for some sort of a political solution. i would call it a political midway solution. there has been some movement on the sign up process, the sochi process, and this would lead to some people, some parties who might be, you know, included in the future government. but to be honest with the people in syria who feel that they don't want this revolution cannot accept more than this. so we have to go, you know, midway in between, just to think of the company doesn't know what it. yeah. and i think that's, that's just dreams from the very beginning. to be honest, we think that the people in syria who took refuge in supporting the government, who focused threatened by the revolution will not accept people who a promo the sanctions because they are feeling the brunt of it. everybody's life.

it has the tend related $100.00 fold inside sooner. yeah. because some guy and some people in washington think that, you know, this is the best way to put pressure on our side. it's not going to happen. it's not related only to outside. it's related to whole constitute a whole part of the syrian people. all right, joshua, there is a point to be made that there's a huge section of this here in society that feels excluded as a result of this decision, as we've heard from omar. and that they, they say that this is rehabilitating in a way, a brutal regime which committed crimes which committed abuses during this conflict . and, and, you know, what do you do about these people and, and those syrian to still live in government controlled areas. those who are still languishing in prison to well he's, he's completely right that this is not going to bring the since a version to justice. but the problem, i think that we've reiterated is that there is no policy to bring the machine to

adjust the sanctions. do not bring justice to the machine. we saw this in a rock where half a 1000000 of the un considered half a 1000000 people died because of the sanctions. this is going to happen in syria. it is happening in syria. why kill a lot of innocent people in order to bring justice to us that it's not going to, he doesn't, he's not going to care. if this is the way he is showing that he's very stubborn and he's willing to say a serious di. and i think it's true that many syrians, particularly in, in the it who found asylum in united states and europe are furious at this because it means that they will never be able to go home. and that's a terrible a crime. but they've forgotten the people who been left behind and that's, this is the problem. you've got the 2 problems and, and the united states had a chance to overturn the outside regime. they had fought for years before the

russians entered in. and they got spooked by the opposition. they turned away. we've seen in ukraine today. what that can do, if they their mind to it, they could have destroyed outside and his army, they chose not to, they feared destroying the syrian army because they were worried that the opposition would take the mask is and that i'd be worse than upside. and that was the last thing about the, the, the us uh josh had to go the state department in his statement after this decision to resubmit syria, to the blake was made said that he is skeptical of outsides. willingness to solve the syrian crisis. but at the same time said that it was aligned with our partners on ultimate goals. what does that mean? what are the ultimate goal? see it as well. you know, the united states would like a 2254 un resolution to 254 to be imposed, which calls for democratic elections overseen by the un, which would fulfill america's demand that syria become democratic, have elections, and also have lead power. but of course, outside is not going to fail though,

so this is a very know, this is a disappointment to the un and to the united states. the us also wants the curtis region which, which it overseas with the soldiers today, 30 percent of syria to have autonomy and for the syrian democratic forces. these kurdish lead miller shop to remain sovereign in northern syria. and, and also i just said he's not going to do that. so from both those points of view kurdish autonomy as well as democratic elections are not going to happen in syria. and this is a, really, this is a very big disappointment to the united states. but to the arab regimes, and they are governments, they don't mind this so much because they're not democratic themselves. they would not want to see a democratic syria. and they don't want us independent kurdish state or clause the independent kurdish state in the north of syria. so this is why they've gone ahead and um, and defied these us goals for syria. it seems like we're back to square one

with this. oh my in washington dc. let me ask you about the way forward now. i mean a we heard in the beginning, the us calling for losing change in syria. that doesn't seem to be happening any time soon. at least for shot aside, seems to be from the place you talked about your disappointment with our bleed is. so what would you like to see happen next to change the status cool, and allow the millions of ceiling refugees to return home for trade to, to resume for you know, the country to thrive again. what would you like to see happen? so 1st let me respond, elizabeth quotes ideal guests 10 years ago. exactly 10 years ago. luck you know, may, may. second, 3rd, my hometown was attacked by the intelligent services of the santa regime. my father was killed, my brothers were killed my childhood friends and my school was bombed. so the ones that are feeling best suited people, the main actor that's killing the certain people starving to send people staging.

that simple is the standard version. that's nothing we can deny in any way in terms of the policy in general, i am not the only disappointed with the arab league. i'm at some point with many countries that we, they were considered as, as actually allies of a certain people because the us policy is not a good good enough policy to, to bring justice to accountability or democracy. cecilia, what we're trying to do is we're trying to find which allies can we rely on, at least in a small, in the small things. what do the interest of this all like? what is the interest of vision people? the crossing point is something to work on. there is no rate interest from the world that you to bring democracy to show you. it's a clear, however, that doesn't mean that people would keep a side in power. aside has killed you know, slaughter tape for so long time. so the way forward is we keep pushing for what we're doing through the legal legal way. so what, what are the things that we had success with is actually managing to capture and build legal cases against individuals who were part of this in regime and bhaskar, some of them one of them, it was rescued for crimes against humanity boss,

being prosecuted for crimes against humanity means that you were part of a system that did that and the system that and what responded was brought schedule was part of is the situation. so the situation is technically sentenced for committed crimes against humanity. and there is evidence of that. so we build them different cases and different you being studies, we have over 1010 different legal cases that we have some of them against high level officials and distinguishing. well, one can always say, well, these people will never live. so that seems to be captured anyway. what you're doing is you're actually building legal cases that prevent so many are being countries or the us term allies. it's relationship with that with a sooner and regime over time. because we can see that policy changes over time with different administrations, so which, why we're trying to do is build the infrastructure that can prevent so many countries from normalizing the sooner regime. the sooner regime is not ready to release to release the 130000 people from its presence. that's where she will not accept that which is use back. that gives the conditions are not fixed, that machine will never let them but peaceful. they were turned back. people and we

saw that people, son from lee been on and these people, some of them are taking it to prison, being definitely interim, gated and tortured today just for being refugees abroad because they escaped because they want to survive. this regime is capable of killing people because it's saw that the international community and the neighboring countries are not holding this regime accountable. and that's our problem. that's what we've been challenged for the fact that we're not reaching accountability not holding this regime account . the next we have them are about even with the small steps we can take a more what, what do you respond to what we just heard from omar and ends at the same question to you? what needs to happen now, given that this region is not going anywhere, what needs to happen to get the refugees to return to get the economy going again? well, 1st of all, guess what, you know, the other party is committed or to have collectively committed quite a lot for cities as well. so with the part of the syrian people that supports, the government thinks that it's not

a very good idea to bring them back or to allow them back or even to release some of them from prison. so that's a problem that we need to have. they need this, this kind of people, you know, this part of this here in society needs to feel assured about any political process going forward. but this is about the inside of syria. one of the functions and what is happening at this moment in time. one of the aspects is that the arab league, the arb states, also need syria on a regional basis to solve issues. like, for example, the problem in palestine. the problem with iraq, the problem in yemen. and it was interesting to read the syrian for the ministry's statement on, on the resumption of the oddly membership. they spoke about mutual respect. we spoke about a joint work with the colleagues and brothers on regional issues. so it, yes, this process, it started actually in 2001 this 42021 in november, 2021 with an initiative by for our state's egypt. jordan, saudi arabia and you a,

they had a meeting just before the american elections. they decided they came out with a statement that they wanted to preserve the arabic at face of syria, so to speak, or quote unquote, the king of jordan of the lot. the 2nd flew to washington, he flew to moscow afterwards, and he told those 2 leaders about what was happening. you know, what's the, what's the point of view of these 4 states. and what we see now is actually like a editor project implementation of that process which, that after which to some embassies. so the issue of bringing back syria to the full isn't really only related to serious internal conflict problems. even though we need to accept to that is they will be some political process that the syrian states might have up its sleeve. and again, it, it put the need, the acceptance of the people inside. okay, i and i do want to ask you, uh,

joshua bought the regional dynamics in a moment, but i want to allow omar to respond to an interesting point that was made by amok. and that is the fact that some syrians is say that the regime isn't the only one to have committed crimes. during this conflict. a month when i was 15 years old, i was taken to prison. i was tortured for committing no crimes. you can imagine 15 years old is not really likely to commit any crimes that was arrested, that was tortured and my fingernails were pulled out us and then i was released a few days later, but then i would risk that again when i was 17. and these prisoners ice, i had my friends, my classmates with me. none of us committed any crimes. that's early, 2011. those people were not criminals, man, you know it, you know, it more than anyone else. you know, they're not criminals. and i had my family being killed in my father's so 25 years and this through an army. and then as soon as they attacked to do some ethnic cleansing in our town, they killed everyone including my father. however,

there has been on the underground committed some old sites. that's one thing. that's of course golf course. of course, definitely you can respond. there's been a crime coming from the other side. nobody can deny that. but you're saying it yourself that way she can come in so many crimes that if she needs to be held accountable, the other sides need to be held accountable. definitely, but the regime must be held accountable because it's technically the one who initiated all these crimes. so of course, the are, the countries are not technically running out from the interest of the fission regime, mostly from their own interest in the region. however, from a to, from the perspective of human rights and considering the fact that the sooner regime has committed these crimes against humanity, you are normalizing at regime and giving it the message that i'm a ruler around the world can kill it's way. can bobby michael with chemical weapons, i can still be in power. okay, i'm up. please respond briefly before i go back to joshua. you know, there was a guy from this in the militia. he'll be headed

a kid. i think he was 11 years old in front of the toner has not if i were to be invited to the security council whenever the world would like to hear a different part of the story. i would use less of a foul language or omar and i would explain to them that there aren't quite a lot of and you know, and horrible stories. on the other side, this is a, the, to the 2 sides of the ceiling and people need to understand that this is not going to happen. you know, getting rid of the cedar in the state. it's just not going to happen. we pay too much of a price to allow that to happen. and if you want to lower your expectations, if you wanna do some soul searching, i do by the way, i do sympathize with your personal plight and but there are others on the other side as well that you need to look at and, and probably acknowledge before we can do any, any, be stalking, so to speak. okay, joshua, let me ask you about the regional dynamics. now, how does the re admission of syria into the league impact the

dynamics and the sense of unity for us within the league itself? because as we know, some countries including kata morocco had expressed reservations about bringing syria back into the fold. and also where does this leave serious relationship with e, ron and russia to some extent a well, obviously it is. it is a success for the outside government. and it, it, it will be an, a success, i believe, for many of the poorest syrians who, who have a hope now of getting trade back. but of course, the sanctions, the us anxious ego sections, are very heavy and they remain on serious, serious, you know, national budget this year was only $3000000000.00, which is, which is less than many universities in the united states. so. so it is not going to transform it syria overnight, but it does put in some ways it puts the error of countries at loggerheads

when the united states on policy for syria. they have stated that they want the syrian sovereignty that they want to reconstruct syria. so refugees will go home and these are things that they cannot do unless sanctions are lifted. and so this is going to cause a considerable damage, i think over the long term and the united states is going to have to begin to trim it sales on syria. or it's going to begin to it is going to begin to really come in at, at cross purposes with its allies, like saudi arabia, jordan and so forth, all of whom are pushing for greater reconstruction and the written trust refugee, joshua, what about uh, yvonne and rushes in joins in syria, they're going to remain strong. this is a win for both russia and iran, which is one of the reasons the united states did not want to do it. now the saudi

arabia and others are counting on the fact that if they can spend money in damascus, that this will, the less than damascus is dependence on iran. and they might be able to get more influence in places like lab and on for saudi arabia. they might be able to stem the cap, the gone tray, and if there is a list of trade, so they're, they're, they're trying to deal with the outside. and all of that is, of course going to strengthen the syrian government and the syrian military. thank you so much, we're going to leave it there. thank you. so my gentleman for a great discussion. oh, ma actual great amar uh, walk us and joshua atlantis. thank you for joining us and thank you to for watching . you can always watch this program again. any time by visiting our website at alger 0 dot com for further discussion, go to our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash a inside story. of course you can join the conversation on twitter handle is that a j inside story for me for you back to bring the whole team here in doha,

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