but at this price point with the technology that still, you know, developing, i still think this category is a couple years off, but it's important that they get this in the hands of developers. because again, for the spot where to be successful, apple needs their developer. so which is why it makes sense to do it at this point, i may just place in the world a professional gulf has ended with a shock, much of the established tools in america, in your, for joining forces with the controversial savvy back live series. which bus some of the seen last year live, signed up many of golf. biggest 1000 lucas have contracts putting some of the traditional tournaments in jeopardy. but the 3 groups of now agreed to terminate on going low save some form of joint will go for operation. the deal without just here, these are the top stories, keven mosca accused each other of blowing up a key damage east and ukraine. let's see, was a bloss breach, the barrier flooding the region and displacing thousands of people. an urgent un

security council session is to to discuss the situation as thoughts and hoffen as time to provide get a james base task more from the un. that'd been a lot of discussion behind the scenes about how this meeting should take place. who should exactly brief the security council? one thing that we had agreement from the russians and the ukrainians that they wanted. the security council meeting, one point it was being suggested ukrainians wanted presidents lensky to address the security council by video link. apparently that the credit is then dropped, that request. the credit is also asked for the un secretary general, antonio gutierrez to address the security council meeting. that's not going to happen. it's going to be the humanitarian chief mos in griffith. at least 3 people have died and a $4.00 magnitude of quake and wisdom, hazy, and it comes just off to 2 days off to venture rain killed at least $42.00 people, them washed away, thousands of homes that seemed as honest as a compounding the misery in the country already play like gun violence. sedans,

warring sides of reported to be re stuffing sci fi tools overnight. the 2 forces clashed in the streets of the city of on demand residents in the capital say they feel under siege cool between and ground clashes. investigators arrived at the scene where at least 275 people were killed in india as with train crash and decades. dozens of bodies are yet to be identified. preliminary findings are pointing to a signaling error. relatives of the victims have been gathering a hospital is trying to find the missing family members angry confrontation, so broken out through a nationwide process across from the guys to new pension. lou demonstrates is what the government to scrub the legislation of a ton of a ton of age to 62 is raised to 64. back in april. those are the headlines. there's always a website. i'll just say we don't. com has the latest on all of our top story stations . the stream is coming up. next, you're watching, i'm just there for a week to look at the world's top business store. thousands of

people go on strikes. i have had high hopes of living from global markets and economies smooth businesses for the export restrictions really impacted to understand how it affects counseling, the costs. oh no, just the hi. i'm heidi joe castro and welcome to the stream. the role of artificial intelligence has long been debated in military communities. but with recent leap, frog advancements and the technology discussions about the role of ai in warfare are gaining urgency. so today we ask is in a i arms race underway. as always, we want to hear from you, so please be sure to share your thoughts and questions on our youtube chat.

joining us to discuss from washington d. c. paul, shari, author of for battle ground power in the age of artificial intelligence. with us from london, melanie garson cyber policy lead and director of geo politics as a tony blur institute for global change. and with us from san jose costa rica, mat moody researcher and advisor on artificial intelligence and human rights with amnesty international. thank you to our guests for joining us today. melanie, i'd like to 1st start with the question, why are we here? are we really facing in a i arms race a thank you and it's good to join us. i think of the way we frame a retreats. we have to be really careful. yes. that all races to different parts of the honda thing a i but be careful to understand the it's

a system of systems. so what we're seeing recently with a lot of the narrative is the races to understand different parts of parts. this is that with that, that knowledge, language models or something. oh, good them. so the parts or components and they will be so the advice to different parts of the whole technologies. mm hm. but i think it's a re upped recap to think about. it's not just the way. so the kind of imagery that we have of a i west to me. well, we do know global leaders have talked about this a lot, right? coming from the us from china, from russia. president putin even saying previously that the nation that leads in a, i will be quote, the ruler of the world. but paul, i want to come to here for this question about practical things. how are military's currently already using ai as well? we're certainly seeing militaries around the world adopting a uh in fact, it's already being used in the war and ukraine is so widely available. it's not

just advance as military's that are using a on even civilians can kept our hands on air technology. so we seen, for example, civilian drone operators and ukraine that are working with ukrainian military using small quad comforter. drones have used a i tools that are available online for free and embedded these into the grounds for things like image recognition. so when the drought is looking down on the ground with a camera, it's not just human eyes. it's also the a i is looking through this camera and detecting objects. that's a truck, that's a tank. that's a very valuable tool and warfare, but it isn't an arms race. i absolutely agree with melanie. the reality is, we're not seeing it when we look at spending, it's about one percent of the us military spending. that's on and honestly it's, it's not even a priority. if we're being honest, right? right now the ways that it is being used is data analysis, right?

and surveillance, the data analytics firm palance here has developed a tool to help commanders make battlefield decisions. here's a video of how that works. or the french confirms of potential threats. the drums that it shows an enemy g, 80 main battle tank. generate 3 courses of action to target this enemy equipment. the operator uses a i p generate 3 possible sources of action to target the sending the equipment. next they use a i p to automatically send these options up. the chain is command, send these 3 options to my commander for review. if you listen, if you listen closely to that description key here, is that still the decisions are being taken by humans. however, the pentagon said in january that it will allow the development of a guy that can make kill shots on their own. and so i wanted to point to my laptop

where there's some examples of what is in development. this is the us air force, designing a combat system where human piloted fighters will eventually fly in tandem with drone wing. then we have here russia in the us developing jerome submarines. this one you're seeing here is the unmanned $85.00 foot orca developed by the us navy, which will be used to lay sea. mine's this video, it's a little bit out there, but the australian army is testing telepathically. robot dogs. they do not need voice commands because the operator wears a headset that detects brain ways. and the robot dog complies. and finally, a real current example. again, we're talking about russia and ukraine. the russia says it's deployed the marker on man ground vehicle in ukraine, supposed to automatically recognize western tanks and destroys them match. i would

like to come to you next. we see all these. a advancements in development at least in the air on the ground in the seas. what are your concerns? ok. well, 1st of all, i think, pointing to the fact that melanie said, these are systems of systems is really important because part of the narrative around it means that we fall into this into this trap of basically thinking that the systems are new and haven't been in development for a long time, and as you just pointed to, it's been a, it's been a debate that has been standing for, for a couple of decades now. right. in particular, in the sort of weaponized nation space in the military space. we've been talking about this and from the, from the angle of a ton of his weapons. ready so i think it's really important to, to understand that from that angle, because what we see is that there are unique risks that are close by the systems which consist of various components that are being deployed in happened, deployed again over the last 2 decades. that includes the system such as facial

recognition. it includes systems are predictive analytics and include systems such as motion recognition. these get paired up with other more advanced computer vision technologies and deployed in things such as drones and things like air defense systems. and we've seen time and time again, but despite the fact that they make full claims about what is possible and conditions of warfare, they end up either falling short or leading to disastrous consequences. we only have to go as far as 2 of the 27th of march and 2020, under libby and prime minister, where economists aerial vehicles are used to shut down the logistics convoys. we saw a number of different examples in which civilians were effectively becoming casualties of these systems. and this is again, a largely sort of i guess, make nathan to be around systems that have long standing records in terms of the research that show that they invariably violate our human rights. they violate our

rights privacy, our rights to, to equality and non discrimination. we saw how facial recognition technologies was used against black life matter, career testers at the arch, following the murder of george floyd. i imagine now systems that are weaponized using the same technologies which are biased and which, which also when not biased or used in context that are discriminatory, institutionally, that can only lead to the further erosion of our rights. and, and this is why it's so important to, to tackle those technologies, you know, discretely, before we get into sort of this essential as debate on a, i mean, sort of taking over the world and mat, you brought up the development of fully economists, weapons which is something that military's across the world are looking at paul, what is the line between semi autonomous weapons which are currently used in combat and fully economists and how we cross that line yet? well, we're getting close and certainly if you know the systems we have today,

and you showed pictures of many of the different robotic systems that are in development under see in the air are still controlled by people. humans are still directing them in that video. humans are in the loop making decisions very few countries and really none of the leading military nations have rule out fully. economists, webpage that will be making their own decisions about whom to show on the battlefield. and the technology exists today. all it takes is for somebody to put it together. there were some videos that came out in ukraine last summer that showed all of the components of the technology. humans were still in charge, but really all, it takes it for a few minutes to just step out of that loop. and then we, we begin to cross that threshold where machines are making their own decisions on the battlefield. i was going to kill. yeah, melanie, i want you to watch this video with us. um it is about it and it's an arms dealers

who are actively promoting new a i power tools to potential customers. and here's one sales pitch heard at the u. a. e's international defense exhibition in february, a review form sent into one of the homeless friends at the moment, but really, you know, across his mind and see we'd be busy, even even though i've given them all on i'm on. hold on. they are covered with a problem with having more than what of what fat acquaintances to do from time to time. so we need to meet to meet you of that to always updating on a sense with, with rates in the market on market to meet with us out on this project, lead the customer requirement. melanie, what does the arms industry and even the tech industry for that matter? what does a stand to gain from selling this a i tap to military's of the oh, we're down to down lots of advantages to using ai enable price to say it's within

the full 5 by full good and for some of the risks with the and haven't rest set that comes with a, a unable price that says well, of massively helps them. we actually already seen this growing batch, russian, ukraine, and logistics planning, which is always one of the biggest challenges for any military knowing how to get wet to water at what point it can not help in a situational analysis. so the areas that it can make actually will fat will accurate by the same token it can make for fat far the, it's a with of you know, the accountability challenges. who have the people difficult? i think be in the clip we just saw. and i think it's some of the changes we try, we have the captain of a bit of a some a coil. so what sort of a rather, you know, but it's like for me, it's definitely you think, well, we need to the, you know,

what the customer wants to because actually the reality of every password field is different. training the data to be able to see. and this is one of the great challenges with thank to see which some of the i use seeing i in the battlefield is that lights on having masters amounts of tracing data to be able to act in a specific focus on to and what we know about bustle fields is those focused on the net, but just saying that that's going to be one of the challenges, which is why as pull pointed out, most of the price or suits we see today. but to the west. when receipts they still need to keep the human somewhat in the loop. so it's very much what is the purpose of that technology for? yeah, and that's this training material itself can be biased and it can be flawed. so there is the risk of a i defense systems responding to a false alarm. bronk a mere john is a researcher at the canada canadian piece research institute, and she sent us this comment. there's a lot of discussion about a bias there that

a i who lives to meet simply makes things up. and those, those concerns are really acute in a complex and dynamic environment that awards on this. so we're talking about, you know, decisions over human lives potentially. and so i think was really key to understand is, is the role of a i in transforming a human decision making and particularly the use of a i, in weapon systems. and there's a, you know, an ongoing discussion of the u. n. an economy has been systems which really has focused on issues of human control, so ensuring that it humans are the ones that are ultimately making decisions to select and engage targets and also accountability so that we can hold someone accountable for the decisions that are made by a system, but in a system match, if a machine makes a lease or mistake, how do we hold that accountable?

i think it's important to understand that those systems were both built and operated by particular actors. i think our current discussion has been focusing so much on what technologies are capable of and to some extent devices that are, that are built within it. but we haven't actually talked about regulations and safeguards, and that's really striking to me given that the focus on reliability and precision of the systems distracts us from the harms that the systems cause. and ultimately gets us away from what we need to be talking about. when it comes to a systems at large, which is about exactly what we're, what you're mentioning, carriage is accountability. so both the companies that are developing that technologies, the actors that are using that technology is the national context within which the technology is operating, who are effectively the responsible party developing the budgets, the framework under which that technology can be used all have a shared responsibility in and effectively the kinds of depths that this might lead

to or the kinds of main things that it might lead to. because of course we see that too. um, what we have to understand is that even when the reliability of the systems are perfected in a sort of a hypothetical scenario, we would potentially giving way for compounded forms of discriminatory violence and killing killing effects. we're looking at things such as institutional racism biases in terms of seem to be able ism, that manifest within the systems of things that under pin how we conduct work there up against certain individuals and groups that may harbor a particular appearances that appear to match stereotypes that we have about what enemy combatants look like. and so you can only imagine how historically marginalized communities, in particular, end up being at the sharpest end of the nice that is a i a military applications. yeah. and i promise we will talk about regulations in a moment to come. but 1st, paul, i, i wanted to,

to smear this discussion to the threat of nuclear warfare. now if this is not something that people are saying is eminent, however we have to at least touch on this to be clear. no one is saying a i should be offered the nuclear codes. that is not what we're talking about. but it could inadvertently escalate conflicts to well, people are concerned, as we see military's adopt a i what are the lines, whether it's autonomy as weapons or really for the most consequential and destructive weapons that we have nuclear weapons? how do we ensure that a i is nowhere near the little clear lodge coast? have you guys you read yeah. in the loop on anything related to nuclear decision making. now what's fascinating is this is now official us government policy. it came out last fall in the us defense department's nuclear posture. review that human will always be in the loop for all information relating to decisions

following using that use nuclear weapons. but we haven't seen that from all nuclear countries. we haven't seen the statement from russia or china about what are their policies going to be? i think that's, you know, we think about cooperation and avoiding harmonson military. i just took like a pretty low bar to clear. that's like a great starting point. say we all agree, humans seem to be in control of anything related to nuclear weapons. and maybe we can build from there. and it would be great to see other nuclear on countries adopt a similar policy. right? yeah, i think go ahead melanie. so i am now, i think that's a really valuable i think the in the conversation, the assumption that we don't have control at this point to decide where we employ a weapon in any given time and who we keep on control of that. and when we have the baseline light, we have the 2 players in the weaponry and we have of, you know, precedents for using that. but that is

a study base full co operation and 4 agreements to be built forward on this. and there has been a little bit of movement on this um map, maybe you want to jump back in here. the the, the recent summit's, the re aimed summit hosted by the never netherlands in south korea earlier this year. did that result in some action towards regulating a guy in the military as again, the focus of those conferences of summits and the focus of largely the discussion around military has been around the responsible uses of, of a. i think that's dangerous because by talking about responsible uses in the military context. we're assuming inevitability and we're moving away from thinking about questions such as, should any of these technologies be used in those context at all? and that's an important question to ask, given that many of the again, the component technologies that make up the larger system of, for example, of tournaments,

weapon systems have records of dire records of human rights farms caused by their usage. by, for example, police forces and cities, but they don't have record showing that they are generating greater efficiency is, are leading to lower and crime, which is often the sorts of narratives that are, is espoused by various law enforcement agency is actually the kinds of a fantasy that sort of technically utopian fantasies that exist out there are a largely based on again let's make oil to, to borrow melanie's term here. and i think that's, that's again, it's telling for us that coming into those spaces, it's assuming and that, that will be able to read you rather than assuming that there was a conversation to be had about regulation. so just being conscious of that's where we need to bring it back to and, and the kinds of the narrative that we also see around is the central angle. yeah. right. stuff like actually it's going to get access to the nuclear codes. and before we know what the planet is going to be destroyed, while an important conversation also once again distracts from the harms that are

documents of that happening on an everyday basis. related to systems like facial recognition, gate recognition and motion recognition, predictive analytics, use the politic as, as predicted, policing. so, so we need to return to ways of regulating those technologies as well. last having this larger conversation to. yeah, and i want to get into dfcs in a minute, but you mentioned that you believe this is an inevitable. however, there are many who may disagree in and think that the genie is now out of the bottle. one of them is the computer scientist and a guy pioneer. the godfather of ai of has some have called him jeffrey hinton, who spoken may about the urgent need for the world to come together to rein in a i for the ex essential thread. the i gave my wife is who lived, that's like nuclear weapons because nuclear weapons had the possibility, they would just bypass everybody. and that's why people could cooperate on

preventing that over the next essential threat. i think may be the us in china in europe and japan could all co operate on trying to avoid that ex, essential threat. but the question is, how should they do that? i think stopping development isn't feasible. well, in our last remaining minutes, i don't want to neglect the possibility of this information, not the possibility, but the reality that it's happening. one example is a video that went viral in january featuring so called american pan. african is supporting a military coup in burkina faso. here's a brief example. hello to the african people and particularly to the berk in a people. we are americans from africa, and we are pan africanist. we appeal to the solidarity of the african people and the people of burkina faso to effectively support the authorities of the transition . we must support the patriotic movement for safe guard and restoration,

and president abram trailer, who imposes respect for his sovereignty. let us all remain mobilized behind the burke in a people in this common struggle homeland or death. we shall overcome melanie's son . they watch that and laugh because it is so obviously fake. however, it does have the potential of, of doing real harm, doesn't it? yeah, absolutely. that is the, with any form of manipulation of the, i'm the use of the general to the ai, whether it to the word or through imagery has the potential to impact by a democratic was ending in trust and trust in information as a whole, which can be part of the breakdown of how we operate in the faith in election psyche. so in this system, but in any form of decision making in our lives. but that,

that doesn't mean it's either inevitable. so in some of the ways some of the same purchases that generate the problem old paul took the purchases that can help us tackle that problem to find solutions to it. yeah, well, we use the conversation is happening worldwide. the paul, i'm going to ask you the final question for today, and it is, what should we be most worried about at this moment? i think we need to start thinking hard about regulating the most capable ai systems . and i don't know that we need to be distracted by, you know, the radical concerns, but we look just practical concerns today. the most capable systems like g p, t for the successor to chat g p t can synthesize chemical weapons. demonstrated that it can help do that. it can be used as a cyber tool for office of cyber attacks. that's what kind of technology that we don't necessarily want widely available to just anyone. and what do you just start

thinking about non proliferation approaches to control this technology? so that doesn't get in the hands of terrorists and others who might cause harm with it. all right, well there was another conference in costa rica in february was the 1st regional intern governmental meeting on a guy in the military. and they produced a complete, communicated calling for the urgent negotiation of a binding international treaty. so some progress, however, it a to urge for more negotiation perhaps is still a step. that's not very advanced. so that's, that's all for the time we have today. i want to thank you 2 or 3 guess paul melanie and matt, thank you for sharing with us your comments and your expertise, and we will see you next time the

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