to tools grease, i'd also into to k, i may see a few cells around the finals west of africa, but nothing too much to speak of as we go on through the next day or so. west of weather will be across the west africa where we should say some live be still, i'm still a lot just the just routing across liberia easing across here. really easy is way out into the open waters of the allowed the something to watch as we go through the next few days. that may well develop into something ominous for the carrot, big lots of shares, run all the way across. central africa. it to the see i can finance the beginning to ideals, different republic his loan for claims, but just would he's more than front in a full pot theory. the big picture takes in,

in depth ness, france insight, episode one on elegy sierra as president donald trump, the 5 norms. now he's the 1st form or us leader to face federal criminal charges. he says it's a political hip job on his 2024 presidential campaign. but what does it mean for america in the future of its democracy? this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much enjoy them. it's an unprecedented moment in the history of the united states, one that's fraud with legal uncertainties and political implications. former president donald trump, has been charged in connection with the mishandling of classified documents, is the 1st federal criminal indictment of the us president. and now the nation is heading to uncharted territory

a year before the presidential election. trump is called the indictment and abuse of power and an attempt to keep him out of the white house. there's lots to discuss with our guests, but 1st, this report from victoria getting the president, donald j. trump, for me, you as president on from campaigning in georgia, 2 days after being in dallas is for miss handling classified documents. he says the charges are politically motivated as the ridiculous and baseless indictment of may by the, by the administration's weaponized department of injustice will go down is among the most terrific abuses of power in the history of our country. many people have said that democrats have even said it. trump is accused of keeping top secret files after he left office files that detailed the defense capabilities of the us and its allies. the indictment says the f. b. i tried to recover them from his ma go home, but trump passed his lawyer to hide the documents, destroyed them and say he was cool operating fully. i never thought anything like

this could happen in america. trump is the 1st form of us president to say federal criminal charges. some of his predisposes came close, bill clinton was impeached on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice. these allegations far false, or richard nixon left office in disgrace. i shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow. the grand jury named him as a co conspirator in the watergate scandal. the prosecutors were worried, you wouldn't receive a free trial, and that it could worse than political divisions. president gerald ford paused ms. nixon meant the decision to indict was never taken 50 is own. there were concerns about the impact this case could have on a deeply divided society is convicted, the former president could spend the rest of his life in prison in an important sense. this is unprecedented. these most recent events, we've got a former as it into seeking re election,

who's been indicted by the department of justice that's overseen by is likely competitor in the upcoming election. these are an extraordinary set of events. this indictment could have far reaching consequences, not just the trump, but also the us democracy. victoria gave some be for inside story the. all right, let's go and bring in our guess in washington dc is era can author of the g o p civil war inside the valid for the soul of the republican party? eric is also a former us congressional staff in baltimore is debbie hines, former assistant attorney general of maryland and a former baltimore prosecutor and in london is thomas gift associate professor and founding director of the center on us politics at university college london. a warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. debbie, let me start with you today. this is the 1st time the justice department has ever brought federal charges against

a former us president. how much legal peril is donald trump? facing right now, and how strong does this case against him? look at the moment. you know, i read the entire 42 page indictment against donald trump and it's what's called a speaking environment. tom, in terms of an indictment, you don't always have to have full details and then you can just have what we call a bare bones indictment, which is just to let the party that defend it. know what they're being charged in. and just a little bit about the information. but what i love about this indictment is special council jack smith. pretty much laid out everything, not just for donald trump, but for the american people to read and to understand what exactly occurred in this case. and he did it with not just words, but he did it with pictures and pictures a but at 1000 i'm worth a 1000 words. this indictment is really worth a 1000000 because he has pictures. he has the words, he has what donald trump said,

and videotapes and so with amounts to 837 count indictment of donald trump for his will to retention documents. and when we say we'll solve, we mean not just you mistakenly kept documents, but over a period of time, even after he was repeatedly told to return the documents, we need to document the documents do not belong to you. he continued to keep each and every one of the documents and the other additional accounts are for obstruction of justice. um and for false statements. for each of all the accounts combined, he actually is facing on um you know, 20 the maximum 20 years in prison on the beach and for 10 years on the other account each. so he really is facing a great deal of pear or but the, the indictment appears very solid against him because it is saying things in his own words that he said, and that's very rare for prosecutor to have that happens in movies that happens in

books that happens in t d, but embryo world life, we never generally see when we do indicted defendant, the actual words that the defendant says that he knows that how the classified documents system work. he knows that the system means that he doesn't get to keep the documents and yet he keeps and hides the documents. so it's solid. eric, i tell you nodding along to someone, would that be was saying that it looked like you wanted to jump in. so go ahead. well, i think also to when we look at this indictment, not only is it stinking, not only is it damming, but also i think one of the things that we don't really address is how this makes the united states so vulnerable. because we're talking about a national security case, we're talking about some of the most highly classified and sensitive information, not just about the united states, but about the united states allies war plants. some of the most the government

agencies such as the intelligence agency, the pentagon, and the fact that this information which just left so how has it around donald trump's state, i think is deeply problem matic. and while there are so many or politicizing this, i think we minimize just how this situation makes the united states less say not more. mm eric. let me follow up on that point you're making because the diamond says that there are files that detailed the defense capabilities of the us and its allies that were, that were left around and in various places. a, i believe they say in, in ball rooms. and in bathrooms as well. um, what does this mean when it comes to allies of the united states who are involved in intelligence sharing with the us and, and is it going to damage those relationships? oh, absolutely. you know, i, i can't tell you how many times i've had conversations with a former national security officials, current of national security officials who focused on not just the reputation of

the united states, but also when president biden or any us g official walks into a room to meet with someone, you know, there is this automatic belief that there is some level of trust between the 2. and when you look at the fact that just recently, we saw a $1818.00, a military official who is charged with a taking classified documents. and now you have the former president of the united states who is alleged to have up scanned it with some of the most sensitive information and was not only refusing to give it back, but now is willing to risk. i'm going to present for keeping this, these documents. it showcases not only the vulnerability, but also it puts so much in doubt, particularly when now the united states has to engage with other countries and its

allies and it. and it begs the question of how safe is other countries information with the united states already we've seen so many blonde or so many embarrassments with so much of this information coming out. and i think this is just another blow to the united states. credibility on the world stage. thomas, i want to ask you about a different aspect to all of this. you know, there's one former president in particular who, who comes up a lot when discussing trump, and that former president is of course, richard nixon. he resigned due to watergate, but he was pardoned and us, you know, protected from any criminal prosecution. how much concern was there at the time of nixon's resignation? and then when gerald ford pardoned him, that putting nixon on trial could have worse and political divisions and tensions in the us and. and how does that compare with what's happening right now, from your standpoint? a really great question and looking at historical parallels, i think it's an actual to think about richard nixon who was singled out by

a grand jury in 1974 over watergate, but he was an indicted co conspirator. at which point of course he resigned. and that pointed impeachment, which would have only been a political act and not a legal act. reportedly, some members of the prosecution team then did consider bringing criminal charges against next and, but it never came to fruition largely because of concerns about what it would mean for the country and what president would it would set. i do think that that case is a little bit different than the one that is in front of us now. precisely because it was republicans fellow allies of richard nixon who turned on him. in this case, we don't have that. we have much more division where it's democrats versus republicans. we have seen some high profile republicans come out against the donald trump, like chris christie, for example, who's running against him in the republican primaries, but by, in large numbers of congress as well as his fellow competitors in the primaries

have essentially backed trump. and so that's, i think, a key distinction here where as in the case of nicks and pretty much everyone agreed that what he had done was wrong. that it was kind of wilful malfeasance. and there was a general sense of bipartisanship that he needed to go. and that's one reason why richard nixon ultimately do tender is, is resignation. but in this case, we don't have that. and that's why it's so much so much different. we have democrats versus republicans at all, just one another republican saying that this is essentially a weapon, ization of the justice system. and so it's very unique, i think in that sense, thomas, you brought up the rest of the republican playing field right now. so let's take a step back and look at some of the trumps main republican challengers. randa santas, he's framed his candidacy is more right wing, the trump as a governor of florida. he's imposed new, restrict sions on abortion, and loosened the gun laws. then there's former us ambassador to the un, nikki haley. she positions herself as

a conservative who can defend america's foreign policy interest abroad. trump's close aid and former vice president mike pins is also in the race. he criticized trumps actions 2 years ago, which led to the attack on congress. now eric, let me ask you, much of the republican party has now cautiously rallied around trump. do you believe that that is going to gradually change as more details emerge? or? no, it's not, in fact is in this indictment which tells a very compelling story, does not shape or somehow begin to po law. some of those republicans, particularly those who are buying to be the next commander in chief, i don't think anything will. and i think what this does is this continues to involve in a donald trump. it continues to allow him to share this story, that somehow he was able to be classified these documents even by doing so within his mind. and i think it only continues to increase greater pull the reservation

throughout the country, which is only deeply problematic. and we're, if we're talking about allies around the world, what does this mean for those allies who are looking at republicans and saying this is someone who had our most sensitive information and was so have, has it with it. but now you have people like mickey haley, a former you went in bassett, or who is coming to his defense on how he handled these documents. what does it mean about how she will be hayes towards us in our information if she should happen to become the next commander in chief debbie when you hear what the reactions have been thus far, and not only from other republican candidates, but also from republican leadership how much does that concern you? i mean, does this so more distrust in, in the justice system? you know, because trump and his supporters have been painting themselves. uh that as, as, as victims, they've been pushing this narrative of, of being victims. so what does that do? when it comes to trust in the,

in the legal systems in the u. s. it says greatly concerns me because hang on like 50 years ago with nicks and whenever this is really, you know, i hate to quote the quote, the joe biden says, but this is really for the soul of democracy because it's all about democracy in america. i mean, what trump is trying to do as well as his allies in all the republican leaders that are behind him. they are trying to turn this country into an authoritarian government. i don't know how we got to this point. i don't know why we couldn't see that we were moving towards this point, but this is what this is about. so this indictment is every saying, if we can get a conviction on it, because that is the movement where we're at. and i don't really see any change in the republican candidates and the republican party. this is where we are at this moment in time. and to be quite honest, it's quite scary. that'd be, let me also ask you, donald trump, of course he's,

he's denied all these charges and he is determined to stay in the presidential race . even if he's convicted, i'm can he actually continue to run for the presidency. if he is convicted, he cannot be president as conducted, but he would have the right to appeal. and that depends on if we get down the line to an appeal, but he could not be president as a convicted felon, which is what he would be if he were contacted. but the way the actual trial system works, i am really concerned if he would actually let alone get convicted if he would actually have a trial in 2020 for the one of the problems that we're facing is unfortunately, attorney general mary garland did not hand his case over to special counsel jack smith much earlier and he ate up 2 years of time by not doing that. and so what

that means is we're now basically facing staring down the gun of 2024 in an election year. and it becomes a point in time when they will probably be a judge to judge who is assigned to the case, who is basically more likely to be one of the lines of donald trump that she's proven. otherwise, judge can, who's like linda raw team of trial, to basically say we cannot go forward with a trial in this case because of the fact that he is running for president. and he has all these and get engagements and commitments and everything going on with that's the real scary part is really what we, after would we actually get to a trial before the election and then he would not be convicted because he would be pending a trial and if he were to, when god for bid, that would be the end of everything. everything meeting he would just tossed out as

um, he wants to do the content, you know, anything relating to the trials against him. so it's yet to be see what, what, what would actually happen. ok. all right. thomas, the responses that you're hearing this far from the, the republican side of the political spectrum. i mean, the fact that, and the fact of this is essentially split along partisan lines at this stage. i mean, is this what you expected? absolutely. i mean everything is split along part of some lines and it's been a consistent, same with donald trump. but if we go back to the muller investigation over russia, we think about impeachment one point. now if we think about impeachment 2 point, oh, think about january 6th, consistently on every scandal, many scandal and everything between republicans to rally behind donald trump. we all always hear these predictions that this time is different, but this is going to be the nail and the political coughing of donald trump. and each time that turns out not to be the case. and the real reason is fairly simple

and that is taller. republicans on capitol hill and elsewhere are afraid of donald trump space because donald trump space system loyal and they constitute the core of the republican electors. and so i don't think that this case is going to be any different than any other change that we have seen in terms of just this year of politics. donald trump today says notoriously loyal. we all know that it's stubborn . it's resistant. and to some extent, it's even galvanized by these kinds of accusations that are levied against donald trump. donald trump, caesar, mr. fundraise, we're already seeing some boost in his poll numbers. i think we can expect that to be more of the same, which is one reason why donald trump remains the prohibitive favorite to win that you'll be nomination for president eric here at thomas are talking about the loyalty of trump base. i want to ask you from your vantage point, is there anything at all at this stage that could emerge that would cause trump

space to start abandoning him? i don't think so, but also to, i think there is the, this aspect of diminishing returns. we solid donald trump in 2016 moves the popular vote by 3000000 votes and 2020. he lost the popular vote by 7000000 boats. and so i think what we're seeing here is while donald trump's base is certainly resilient, is certainly going to stand by him no matter what it's simply is not enough to actually deliver him the white house. and so while it might be enough to actually win him the primary, it's just not enough to deliver in a general election because many of the votes and voters that he will need to win in a general election had been so turned off by him. and i think when we look more deeply at this case that jack smith has recently brought and as the, the,

the court proceedings continued to play out in manhattan. and as we see what's going to happen in georgia with the case in fulton county by prosecuting attorney funding. well, as i think all of that combined is going to be very difficult for donald trump to overcome in a general election. and that is why i think you continue to see joe biden say, don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative. and the alternative is what donald trump brings to the table. and it simply is just not enough. in the special council, jack smith, who filed these charges, he said, prosecutors were going to seek a speedy trial earlier you were talking about potential timelines for a trial. but um, from your vantage point, how quickly could all this proceed? i mean, how quickly could a trial be put on? so the way it works is um, when they go in, when i b, believe it's tuesday, donald template into a play and at some point very shortly after that. and this isn't very fast. the

docket in federal court and particularly in the county that they're in west palm beach. so the prosecution says that they will take $21.00 days for them to try their case. that is quick and then whatever the defendant doesn't have to put on a case, but whatever time the defendant would need to put on a case, but a lot depends on the judge's calendar as well. because this is not the only case that judge cannon has won her calendar, they would also be motion that would, that would be, had that proceed a case. so in reality, there is time to have the case presented very, very quickly and very soon and in the spring of 2024. but just, you know, what i've said before a lot of factor pins on the judge. it depends on the judge and but the judge determines because it is a judge that determines the scheduling of the case. and this judge is pro trunk down. maybe she will be less pro trunk because she's got her hands think before

when she tried to basically apply, you know, her, her mom, her opinions towards trunk that were totally invalid. but we just don't know and her name is can and, and she is basically a lou scan it. and that is the concern. in the case, she's the one that's going to set the trial, the set, the trial schedule. but it's definitely possible if we didn't have a judge can and when the case for the case to be tried and there wouldn't be any problems with it being so close to the election such that she would defer and say, i would just can have the case go forward at thomas, i want to talk for a moment about the impact all this could potentially have on, on present button because president binding has maintained that he's not commenting on all of this. and, and he's essentially trying to, to stay above the fray. um, but the fact of the matter is that, you know, it's the justice department under the biden administration, that is carrying this out. so i'm curious from your perspective, does that start to look to

a segment of the american population as though joe biden is going after his chief political arrival? and then what impact does that have on jo button? a to a segment of the population? absolutely, that's going to be the perception. you know, this case is shrouded in politics. there's just no escaping. and so prosecutors were going to be accused of acting in a partisan way, whichever way they pivoted either they wouldn't indict. and they'd be accused of granting trump special privileges and of having a 2 tiered system of justice. or they wouldn't died as they did. and they'd be accused of election interference of orchestrating a political vendetta. attorney general america, ireland tried to medicaid that problem by delegating discretion over the prosecution to jack smith. but it doesn't insulate fully the department of justice or the white house for that matter from the spectre, you know, the spectre of partiality jack smith is still reports to the attorney general. and the attorney general is still part of the executive branch. and so that's the

through line that trump is strong and it's one that democrats also raised when they used former attorney general bill bar of weapon isaac, the department of justice, for example, to defend trump in the wake of the muller investigation and elsewhere. so everything about what jack smith is doing his comments earlier. everything contained in the $37.00 counts against donald trump is going to be scrutinized through that political lance. i'm not sure that there is a whole lot that your body can do despite what he has done, which is just, i don't have any comment on this. no, i'm not lang in, but of course you know that this is the case that donald trump is trying to make. the republicans are trying to make that essentially, he's just weaponized in the department. pick out your minds most likely to the 2024 election. we just have about 3 minutes left, so i want to in the show by ask you all the same question. we are at an unprecedented moment in american history, and i want to ask each of you what this moment means for the us going forward. eric,

i'll let you go 1st and i think we're in a battle for democracy in the united states and many thought that when donald trump loss, that somehow the country had won many things that this prosecution of donald trump is a suggestion that democracy is winning. and i'm not so sure that's the answer or the take away from what we're saying play out. and i think we really won't know the answer to that until maybe 23, even 5 years from now. debbie, what do you say? what does this moment mean for america right now and going forward and submit it, so make it or break it down that i mean it, that's just the bottom line. i don't think that even i, i agree that even if there is a conviction of donald trump, we have gone so far down the rabbit hole in this country. i don't think that that's going to get us moving out of the rabbit hole and i don't want to sound like the pessimist that i think that they follow the other republican leaders out there that

want to be a, you know, a like the i t e donald trump, it just is not going to go away, it will definitely be better if donald trump is convicted and he goes away. but this is definitely a, make it a break at the moment in terms of if he is not convicted and he is allowed to get anywhere near that white house the moment again it is, it's just on for and thomas, what do you say this moment that we're in, what does it mean for the, for the united states of america? what does it mean for the, for now and what does it mean for the future? well, i'll try to end a little bit on our hands of optimism and that is absolutely the country is going through very fraud times highly polarized and the strains, but donald trump has induced on the american democracy, are on like those that we haven't really ever seen before and it's the same time, i do think that there is a lot of catastrophe thing about american democracy. there's a lot of hyperbola lising about american democracy. i don't think that american

democracy is fundamentally, is at stake. i think it's being tested, it's being strained. so maybe to the breaking point, but what we saw in the aftermath of 2020 is actually kind of the courts and the political system and the legal system operating as it should. you know, donald trump made this unprecedented claim of election rigging and what happened? well, donald trump is not in the white house right now, despite his best efforts. most of these actually played out through the courts and the way that they should have been, and most of them were dismissed in the way that they should have done. so in this case, in particular, what we're going to see is also the legal system. and it takes shape and puts out as it should. donald trump will ultimately be judged by 12 jurors peers of his and no make the final determination. so it's a difficult period for united series, but i don't think that this is a substantial process. all right, well we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of i guess eric ham,

debbie hines and thomas gift and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'm 0 dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ag inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at a j inside story. for me, my how much enjoyment a whole team here, bye for now the, the the

idea is the friend who public his loan for claims, which is 4 days more than friends. in a full pot series, the big picture takes and in depth ness france insight, episode one l to sierra investigative journalism. this was a very and as hard as it would have been absolutely uncomfortable to work for me like that before global exploits in discussion. the internet did not need to be the greatest tool of most of your lives in the history of the world. voices from different corners. vision, programs that open your eyes to an alternative view of the world today. not many people have seen this business of a selection on outs and sierra.