a disappointingly cloudy to drop of maybe 10 degrees daily on in many places. a disappointment, i think from north africa, the seas no rain to doing this thing. they tend to generate as waves as easy as can homes come west through sassy down through nigeria, where it's being wet recently and eventually end up as far west as the gotten of the in february 2023. a 149 carriage freight train travel through east palestinian new hire. $38.00 cause the rate of 11 we're carrying has of this material. and one of them is the most toxic chemicals everett test in the united states. it was terrified blanketing our communities. photons, investigate safety practices within america's real growth industry. time is money. money is everything. the room on the jersey to finish as president reaches out to

migrant months after launching a crack down on the high side of it, is hoping to clinch a $1000000000.00 to use bailouts. and then return them the rising migration to your our migrants being used as political phones. this is inside store the hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much i'm drawing. a record number of people are making the dangerous journey by boat from to nature across the mediterranean to europe. many of them are from poor and conflict tip countries in sub saharan africa, but an increasing number of 2 nations trying to escape hunger and unemployment are joining them. that's got countries in europe alarmed as part of efforts to send the flow. they're offering an aid package of more than $1000000000.00 to help stabilize teenagers economy rights groups are criticizing the proposal,

saying it compromises the rights of refugees and asylum seekers. there's lots to discuss with our guests, but 1st will make assume sharif steps. the scene for us the financial deal that denise is in desperate need of, as it struggles with multiple overlap and quite sees. but at the heart of a major, a package just to jeez. and my goodness. the european union is concerned that if denise is economic crisis deepens, microns will arrive on your shows. we both have a vast interest in breaking the cynical business model of smugglers and traffic course. it is horrible to see how they deliberately risk human life for profit. so we will work together on an empty smuggling operational partnership and we will support to new york with border management. the financial awful follows talks in tune is with leaders of your pin commission, italy,

i'm the netherlands speaking stocks, a head meeting, president kind of site said any solution to the mediterranean, modern crisis should not come at the expense of his come to whatever height the height of the of them and they are victims, victims of a global system that unfortunately treats them not as human beings, but as numbers. we cannot play the role, but someplace openly and others hide, being gods for their country was the that's in sharp contrast to his comments in february when he accused migrants of bringing violence and crime to tanisha and its security forces to take action. the president also said people arriving from sub so hutton, after post a threat to the countries demographic make it prompted empty hate speech demonstrations from rights groups and racially motivated the task. hundreds of

people were detained. many questioned the preston to present to you to a had a possible bailout. it'd be looked at at the corner of the street. you wouldn't have bad consequences if it will be coupled with other financial agreements between the you and the transit countries on the mediterranean, which due to the suffering economies, 10 to 10 into gathering points for india migrants a major push for the financial. the comes from easily the destination for most people departing from north africa. tanisha is less than a 150 kilometers from the island of plum producer. within $36000.00 migrants, including separately donations, arrived in italy and the 1st 4 months of the year. in april, coast guard since fox or tree of more than $200.00 bodies in a matter of days, while many refugees come from african countries, the worsening economic crisis is forcing motor motivations to risk the crossing in

the hopes of reaching safe for shows on the consumption of eve, i'll just see the inside story. all right, for more on all this i'm joined by our guests in brussels. is julian who is a european union affairs analyst and 2. and this is thought that we call them this and former director of the 2 nation institute of strategic studies. and also in brussels, is asking me that creamy a north africa research analyst at the brussels international center. yes. mean, focuses on donation politics and transitional movements in the money. a warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story thought. let me start with you today at present, and i saw you. it is hoping to get this $1000000000.00 you bailout for the struggling economy into nature. the you wants to stem the flow of migrants to europe so easily. what we're seeing here added essence, migrants basically being used as part. it's

a yes or no actually yes, it's like, you know, in international relations the don't know, don't know. equation is happening here. i mean, i say there's no doubt using the immigration court as part of the old bargain with regards to micro financial assistance to, to use. yeah. to use a need, a lot of financial systems. the budget deficit is really increasing. so the president knows very well that he needs to finish the system as the i am at the agreement has been bought because he's not in agreement with some of the uh, the forms that are proposing this stuff like one of the month of october 15th last year, so he's trying to really go, she, i am a financial assistance and with that she wants to have more by that to that financing. and yes, you use the immigration quite by the same time, most of you will be unit is doing the same as you to premier in

a is trying for yours now to pressure north african countries including me is you have to have a different do you with regards to immigration. uh we're not exactly sure of the details of this. um and you know, we're still waiting for the memorandum to be fine. the boss of the published by the end of this month. but to read, you know, the them, you'll be meeting that's happened about 24 hours before the visit will be there. so twenty's. yeah, i was basically pushing for more speed. the process when it comes to immigration and support. so i'd say kennedy to be part of the patient and that might be too easy. so we're gonna have to wait for the team to be seeing the thing. but certainly what's happening here is the now from both sides not only from a side side. so i, i want to get back to the i m f, a proposal a shortly with you. but before that i, i just want to talk more about the migrants and the stance towards them when it

comes to the chinese government. because uh, the president present side went to sparks ahead of this meeting with you officials . he said that any solution to the mediterranean migrant crisis should not come at the expense of his country. and he, he basically use a lot of humanitarian caring language when it came to the plight of the migrants. and the reason i'm bringing this up is because this is quite a contrast to what we heard from chi side a few months back. this was in february when he accused migrants of bringing violence and crime to, to nature. he also said that people arriving from sub saharan africa post a threat to his country's demographic make up. so the fact that we've seen such a shift in tone from the president at a time when the president is making this agreement with the e. u doesn't that also contribute to a cynical attitude toward all of this. and again, to the idea that migrants are being used as political ponce to well, actually the fact is that he's, it's not the 1st time uses this human and we were mentally kidding language. he

kept saying that for months now, actually the statement, the position, the statement that was referring basically to, to get a replacement theory. that statement was annual. that's not the feat twins language, that's the case i would use use frequent language was just like it did in the specs visit just the day before you will be in need of is visited, you need yes. was what he uses to to say for, for so many minutes, all along the problem with that it's not the different tones between that but is this a statement that happened in february or march? it actually and uh the, the, is you mainly getting language is between these course and practice. there is no doubt in my mind that a site that is partly a can, he's a, he's a, he uses this course sometimes to a scene or

a high to way some of the practice. we gonna have to wait for the manager, but it's possible that even though we kept saying that when you use enough group of co scored for the you know, and he might do free in some measures that would actually be characterized as if media is behaving like it goes good. he has mean uh, i saw your reacting and looks like you want to jump and let me just ask you 1st. of course, those who are opposed to this plan say that the economic health is being offered to, to an agent is simply some form of blackmail in order to get to an easier to do europe dirty work when it comes to controlling borders and helping with legal deportations, what do you say? what do you think about that? i mean, if you, if you see how europe has been dealing when it's so cold, sell the neighbors and you know, for our neighbors to be neighbors, you have to have a balanced relationship. if you see how europe has been dealing with, with migration and of the whole entire immigrant sentiment in europe,

that has been the basis of so many as 2 other bases of so many a political campaigns here in europe. and so much so much like uh for the rise of the, of the far right to your, of a, you could not help. but the thing that this is, again, another time by you are up to externalize it's frontiers and cheese. and it has been doing that for for many, many years now. now that i think what a specific about, um, what's happening at the moment is that it's a d a which has a fall right? cuter ship has really been championing the idea that tunisia should received by a mess fund. and again, everything that had been promised between these yeah. in the last visit by here. so the lane and the dutch prime minister and the italian prime minister, every o financial aid is conditioned by can, these are receiving the i am

a phone. so again, this is all conditioned on cheese implementing austerity measures, very harsh research and measures. and it's what he has really been pushing for chinese. yeah. to, to, to get that song that has really been frustrating both the you and the other individual european countries to a financially a health attorneys. yeah. because the only thing that it's the cares about is to superficially stuff like enough chinese. yeah. and, and north back to got for um, for these countries, for most african countries to effect the g. a. implement and use expectation border policies meant to effectively and come back to the idea of uh, guarding the borders of europe. so i have no doubt that this is, i'm not sure if it's black mailing because i think it is very political capital. and using my grands on the part of, of, of, by science also. but this is definitely

a migration deal julia um you heard the as mean there talk about italy's role in all this italian prime minister, george maloney has pushed the imap to relax as conditions when it comes to the bail out proposal for tunisia. do you think that's going to happen? i mean, honestly, like many things in politics, you never know something's actually going to happen once it actually happens, but i just want that to the point that was made by my fellow family. this is about exactly what's going on behind this in general. so one, there is the fact that it was him that he doesn't want to have an artificial stabilization of the tools and economy. because the features of any side of the stabilisation could lead to soaks on risk that would lead to the migrant awesome being blown completely open. and as we know, the fall rights in europe is very much to continue on. something like this to a covered benefit and when elections and it's always been one of the main priorities. however, there's 2 reasons why you would want to steal. doesn't have

a mess have been discussed yet. one of these is, of course, donasia is one of our process neighbors and is the parts of the neighborhood and the you benefit from having a stable neighborhood well, economically that you can have stronger relationships, something countries. what's on top of this, there is also a show to geo political aspect to this. whether you has also been fighting for years now to come back to improvements of states such as russia in china that would be trading on states like cuts in as young have been trying to take a bunch of or the instability and the are trying to turn these into a game of geopolitical chest, that's not on like what we witnessed during the cold war. and the you would also like to make sure that it's actually supporting it's allies in the region. julia, let me follow up with you of look, there's a lot of components to all of this. let me ask you this. do you believe that tunisia is going to need to finalize it's i m f program in order to actually qualify for the aid proposal with the or the aid agreement with the

honestly a d. u, a deal was basically constructed and will to help me just talk, she meets the reform agenda that the i am as requested. so in order to help finance several interested what the majority initiatives, even. but of course the you understand is that the terms, your presence mastery, just outside, refuse to engage in this because he feels like him a we can have it in a week and his position with his supporters and it could lead him to feed. and like, can be easily blackmail. so what's, what's ideally needs to be done is that the, you want you to find a way to actually smooth the sort of a potentially food. yes, that's the needs of the leaders. you know, it's our conference at the, to actually engaged in accepting this deal. again, like many things in politics, we never know something's actually going to happen at the end. i'm actually happens when i think that's right now, the situation is quite tens. surely because of all the speculation, most of the claims about who feels walton,

who is prompted to escape for the monetization of my friends. as many i said, it's sorry, so it needs it. had agreed to a loan from the i m f, but then present value is subsequently rejected. the conditions that were set by the m i m i for at least some of those conditions. i want to ask you why, why when teenager is facing such dire financial straits, you have foreign investors that are pulling out of teenager readings. agencies are on alert, inflation and joblessness are on the rise. 2 nations by and large are struggling to make ends meet. so why reject these conditions? and i think there are 2 main reasons, but 1st of all, the reason i united for reason i decided it is um and basically in the lines with the party or the, the station, the picking. okay. the state. uh, since he took over in july 25 and uh,

his government today is in line with what should be seen by uh, the item if any forms. uh, but to spec and get out of this, basically pan out of his socialist kind is for the social who would of the state things like that. so in conclusion with stuff the with the i am, if you will shortly forms back and you'll see forms. but you know, he let the government begin shaped for months to reach the stuff to the beam and you know, sort of 152022 only then they decided to come up and say basically that to use against some clauses of the game. and especially the privatization of state phone enterprises, but no, typically the get actual basically everything off the subsidies. the other thing, the 2nd main reason for this because he said that maybe the, the forms are going to him the order to go to state village and his get our books about that. it was actually certain his is, it will then they think that this is

a more important reason for him. i don't think that he's going to agree to any of the forms like that that you suspect, cuz i'm gonna be a few seconds to them. but it's considered the before the elections of 2024, if they happen by the end of 2024. and so that's essentially the, i have to say something about i missed the view. it's true that um, uh, these are the forms where we go straight to buy the piece of documents and va mass, but those. but if i said no to some of these elements that these rolling accept in spite of the minutes, but especially for the decision makers of to a possible vision of the stuff liberal agreement that they think that you will be. and specifically the tiny lobbying as a to point to everyone's even view as decision. yesterday's statements by onto the

clinton after the visit, the lead time for administer. yeah. any uh and blanket saying very clearly that there is a need for a revised proposal by the change of government. it's a sign that they need to revise the agreement. i have just to see what the guy, the vision's got. as i mentioned, a possible new back system back to the with that, but we need more details and i think that anything government didn't get a sense that revised proposal to the item that has mean uh your pay and commission president ursula of underlying said that the you would also expand opportunities for young tunisians to study to work, to train in the you in order to help them develop skills that could be used to boost the termination economy. but there was no mention made about facilitating visa applications for tunisians to get to e u countries. what to make of that? so yeah, just uh you know, give us a very quick state of affairs and cheese. yeah. in morocco, i mean al, during yeah,

it was already some years since the 2nd visa system has been uh, implemented it was already har too. it became increasingly very hard to get a visa list of documents is on and all the cost is on and on. and the refusals became very common now in the last few months. and even in the last couple of years when friends decided to basically decrease uh the percentage of a visa that even gets to the 3 bedroom, the countries that i just mention. so by 60 percent for all julia and morocco and by 30 percent for um for jeez. yeah. it's not even getting the visa that became the problem. it is getting an appointment today. um, if you scroll down any uh, social media platform uh the past due, you know, tease americans, old dreams and its, you'll see a 150 movies of young filmmakers. not getting their things as of students with

european scholarships, not getting their views of people who need to get medical. you're not getting there . these us so we can talk last about improving regular pathways for, for migration. but the shoes on the ground was bad. it is almost impossible now for a young person to get it to risk to continue that i'm not even talking about the work. these are a student or a studies visa, so that the complaints about do regular migration increasing and she needs that dramatically increased to be a quick number, a quick comparison between january 2020 and january 2022. and the number of those leaving function is insurance. so she needs is a multi gyms this multiplied by 10 in 2 years, only 2 years. so if you're, if you're complaining as and as a partner and as a block and as individual countries about regular migrations, while we're actively sabotaging any pathway for regular migrations,

for your macro bees. very incoherent. so you can put set, you know, in an agreement that you're going to bolster these regular migration pathways. but the reality is it is increasingly hard for a more accurate can to migrate it regularly to europe, educated at the moment you pick that, julian, you're heard, yes, mean there is say that this is essentially and go here at, i mean, if you are paying the commission is saying that it will offer opportunities for young tunisians to study and work and train in the e. u. is it not incumbent upon the you to within facilitate these applications? well, the problem with this is that a lot of it comes on so, but that's a relationship between the member states and the countries and from something. it wasn't until late last year where the tensions between from so no jury or from example over a series of diplomatic conference, actually for the north with the french, they was willing to have the conversation about liberalizing visa and increasing

the number of uses in the plan and so being different, i mean, the, you, the reason why they didn't say anything specifically about services because they simply cannot just force member states to issue movies of that is probably not something that's been top. and i'm just struggling and i'm fixing to do that. i think that's just also the big balancing act when it comes to the e. u and there are lots of migration issues and lots of, i mean, we can go as far as outside of issues with lots of which is entirely dependent on the member states having the agreements and the member states accepting something action which is why, for example, the meeting last week on the new migraines to deal with the credit has started quite us. we just shot minnesota involved was a step towards trying to find a solution that would make things more coherent. but of course, we do need to look at the systems in place and actually try to figure out some what is happening and whether it's actually for. busy or it looks correctly because for example, think i'm on the young to museums, audiology or into could contribute to our societies. but who,

or who needs to be in the medical system for health care reasons. we simply cannot because there's no good job trinity. and this is something that's in some ways we need to look at the inquiry you use and actually think about some what's is actually what we should be doing for now. what is the right thing to do is really let me also ask you, you know, there's, there's a lot of criticism from a migrant advocacy groups about the potential for forest repatriation potentially abuses of migrant into nature as well. um, what guarantees are there that, that there would be a respect for human rights and all of this? what guarantees are there? well, this is a big question. understand this is something that, again, we need to be looking at what's happening actually try to find what works best. i mean, for example, one of the big reasons why they talk about safe countries in the uh, printer today during that when you run the 60 days ago, is that the, you need to have strong agreements with southern states that can be considered safe . and i'm not talking about things such as will be, you can have them with the one to cancel the thing. but we need to actually find

a way of finding states are able to actually take these my grants and do it safely . and if not, have contingencies to say ok to kind of done safety. we need to figure out the way of ensuring the safety also. but again, this is something that i'm not going to know until the full agreement is released. and until more work has been. busy because i haven't been send multiple times during this discussion. note for this discussion is being driven by default writes and the far right ones, these migrants. so these asylum seekers need bottles. they still care. and often times they actually both come the idea of having to spend extra money your putting makes more provisions to actually support these people when they get to spaces. but it shouldn't be size because they don't see it as a problem. and they do it as a victory electricity, which is an increase in the big problem. and when it comes to your work and politics especially have the election. thank you. yes, i mean i, i want to take a step back and look at the human dimension to all of this. uh, and i wanna preferences by saying that 5 years ago i was on

a reporting trip in tunisia. i went to, is, are these. i went to the coastal city as far as east in the south, where at that time you had a hundreds of bodies that were washing up people that had tried to leave libya, didn't make the journey across the sea. and their bodies would wash up into a r z so, and you had volunteers that were digging grace for them so they could have some dignity in depth. and the reason i bring all this up is because you now have a situation where more and more refugees and migrants are undertaking this perilous journey from tunisia. an unprecedented number is there to these authorities that to say that they stop 13000 people from attempting the crossing from stocks in the 1st 3 months of this year. no matter what agreements may be made. the fact of the matter is a desperate people will continue to try to undertake these journeys. is that not the case? yeah, this is something that is crucial to understand. nothing in this role will prevent people from trying to get a better life,

nothing. what it will do is that it will make their journeys for secure and it will create more that's, i think this is a trend that we have been seeing for decades now. entries yeah, at the moment for example, you have the trips by fishermen who are trying to push corpses up courses of people. we don't even know and we cannot even identify today people who are dying, etc. entries. yeah, no easy. and specifically, because the state doesn't have political where northern logistics to identify everyone, they are being buried in mass graves because we just do not have the capacity to, to, to identify those people who don't have the capacities to tell their families that they die. or they arrive safely, or they are incarcerated in some european countries. this is what it means to give them money or immigration to be to be prevented. and you call. all right,

well we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guest julian who is yes, mean that creamy and thought a kind of way. and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, and i'll just ever. com and prefer the discussion go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash age and side story. you can also during the conversation on twitter or handle it at a j inside store for me and how much i'm doing the whole thing here. bye for now. the the

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