some localized old flash flooding as the pulse of africa generate dry still plenty hot enough there and car at the t 9 celsius big storms, the rod across the west, africa heavy as to which, pushing for liberia and see how many i worked out of their existence it slowed shit as a principal present as a correspondence with any breaking the story, not to hear from those people who was normally not get that voices heard on the international news channels. one moment i'll be very proud all was when we covered the fullness quake of 2015 at the terrible match, all the facts and a story that needed to be told from the hall of the affected area to be then to tell the people story, it was very important at the time germany unveils its 1st national security strategy for lynn argue as geo political events have triggered this move. but why

now? and how is it being seen in europe and beyond? this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much i'm, you know, security strategy for a new era. germany has acknowledged it. safety shortcomings are a problem. the down the line could turn into a crisis. now it's looking to strengthen his domestic and regional safety through a national security strategy. but in an age of rapidly advancing technology and china is rising in fluids, berlin admits its navigating uncharted territory. so how well germany's plan effective the role as europe strongest economy and with russia and ukraine of war will its tougher stance on badging lead to new alliances. will explore all this and more with our guests. but 1st this report by katia lopez. what a young to europe's leading economy is now looking to also lead in regional

security. germany is laying out as planned to boost military spending through its new strategy for national security. the critics say it needs to do more to convince allies of its commitment. not so not is it just what i want to make sure that the national security strategy is not the end point. but the starting point from which we will organize the process of cooperation between all levels of government, the economy and society to strengthen our security in the long term. shaw says the war ukraine has exposed deficiencies in germany's military. and critics say the countries reliance on russian energy exports lifted, vulnerable to political pressure from moscow. issues that perhaps didn't seem crucial to berlin a few years ago are now seen as potential problems. speaking item items, one, social security and the 21st century is about more than ministry and diplomacy. security means reliably guessing essential medicine at the pharmacy. it means

nothing spied on by china when meeting friends or not being manipulated by russian books when scrolling through social networks. china is germany's most important trading partner with imports and exports between the 2 valued at more than $300000000000.00. but berlin now says beijing is also a growing threat. it suspects china will use its economic power to extend its political influence, particularly as europe relies on it for minerals needed to sustain a carbon neutral economy. germany has interval this report days before china's premier lee con. it's to europe too much of a strong future. you'll know that the invitation of german chancellor shoals premier lee chung will pay an official visit to germany from june 18th to 23rd and hold the 7th round of china. germany inter governmental consultation. as part of it strategy, germany plans to increase spending defense to 2 percent of his gross domestic product hitting needle spending target for the 1st time. but critics,

a berlin was also convinced his allies that it can play a pivotal role in security, in an outside of europe to patsy. a little piece of leon for inside story. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guess all right. bruckner is the drum on a professor for european studies at stanford university in berlin. he's there today and with us now in vienna, full can put side a senior advisor with the austrian institute for european and security policy and across the atlantic. your inflect as a senior director with the atlanta counsels of europe center. he's with us from washington, dc. a one welcome to you all. and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. all right, let me start with you today. how big of a turning point is all of this for germany, and how is this new national security strategy being seen in europe and beyond? while it is the very 1st one. so in that respect, it is

a turning point. it remains to be seen that if asked if it actually turn something, but it has been announced in the coordination agreement. when the new government came into power, they announced a plan what they are doing in the next 4 years. and this was part of it. it was announced for a autumn it was announced later, and now we had to wait for a whole year until it finally came into being with a big chest chair in which the chancellor came together with the 4 heavy weights of his cabin a. to highlight that this is a raw, that holistic approach and something that is not like strictly focusing on defense . but it remains to be seen if it turns germany into a more active player. because in the past that wasn't much appetite for leadership by the german government and by the german public was getting, i guess, the unprecedented, unprecedented nature of this national security strategy really makes clear just how

much the war and ukraine has altered germany's view when it comes to overall security doesn't actually, it's certainly a remarkable document for those just mentioned before the sockets documented already before. but of course, it was heavily influenced by the developments in ukraine and also by the audit global development. it needs to be seen if it's really a remarkable, eventual document. it needs to be seen if it does not just remain income, the paper ends up and also stress. these documents has also some shortfalls. it's not very precise in 70 key areas, but the older get a equity agree. it's a major leap forward for germany and for germany as a key member of your european union and does need to you want from your vantage point to how does this change things? now germany has this national security strategy. so what will the country be able to do now that it wasn't already doing as a result to but i think we should remember the purpose of these type of strategy

documents. if you look at you, the us national security strategy or, or british or french counterparts, i don't think these documents should be taken has as the, the, the silver bullet as the solution to everything with the, with a stroke of one pen. we should keep that in mind, i think on balance, the new drum, national security is a net positive for germany for its allies, and for berlin's role in nato and the european union. yes, they are shortcomings a lack of urgency ambition and clarity on, on some key points of the follow through with the operationalization, the budgetary se side of things, uh, bulk gone, already alluded to some of this. but i do think this strategy is one important step . a step away from 3 decades of germany, care for you knows, care less than this. some people would say on strategic matters and security

matters and the step towards defining term interest security proofing. durham, decision making and building up a more robust and. busy looking strategic culture in term one small but important step towards that goal. and so over to one of the more interesting omissions and all of this is that there is no national security council that will be going along with this national security strategy. i want to ask you from, from your point of view, why, why, why was a national security council not created as well as well. this is a specific date because it a, of the german political system. we came from a highly centralized is talk. history was nazi germany being fully centralizing. paula, in the hand of the, from the end, the end as the i p. and ever since germany do centralized and the federal life

station of the federal republic actually meant these centralizing power. not only from the national level to the land of like the regions, but also a separation of power and the copying a. so the chancellor as the most powerful procession and the political system is not steering everything that he defines the guidelines in which direction we are heading. but for in policy, the strategy planning happens in the portfolio of the foreign minister, which in a coalition government is normally not the portfolio of someone from the party of the chancellor. but the junior partner today, it is the green party and it was a lot of struggle within the coalition. whether it's good to have a steering institution that would then be charged by a the chancellor re or whether we keep it as it is. and in the end, the green parties succeeded you and it looked to me like you were reacting to some of what ulrich was saying there, did you want to jump in?

i think there are historical reasons for, for this decision. but i think in this particular case, the political dynamics in a 3 way in a complex and difficult 3 way coalition are probably the more decisive factor. i think i'm the one hand is the chancery and chancellor charles that wanted to preserve maximum freedom of maneuver. freedom of action on, on key foreign policy items for and, and security policy issues. and then there is a, then there was the, the, for an office and specifically the greens, foreign minister, natalie. not be a box who, who wanted to not give away even more of, of the foreign policy decision making to the chance 3 away from the 4. and i think that's a key factor. it's a real miss, a missed opportunity not to have

a more cross cutting, coordinating permanent body and a like a national security council in the drum system that is heavily fragmented, especially when you're talking about and when your goal is that policy of an in of integrated security that runs through the national security strategy if you want to . if you want the whole government approach, then you also need to figure out ways of institutionalizing an operationalizing. the that's a missed opportunity here. ok, let me get your take on all this up. from your standpoint, do you think that the creation of a national security council would, would help implement the vision laid out by the strategy and also from your point of view, what are the potential foreign policy consequences of all this? but i can. busy agree, this is certainly a shortfall that there is no national security council. on the other side on the stands, it will match the constraints in germany. i'm actually policies. nevertheless, it's set by my 2 colleagues. they buy

a coordination of drums for insecurity policy. we'd be much must be because much more challenging is going to be much less flexible. and especially if there is a requirement for crisis we action on by day, by day coordination of crisis, a reaction he sees certainly more challenging if there is no national security, counting the weight of the of costs a good grade. so i'm gonna talk structures. but if you ever have thoughts structure it's, it's not perfect, it's out here in comparison to the sometimes you said prominent no doubt before got to being the natural impacts of the strategy. it's a message. it is a message of the spelling europeans that germany wants to be its role. is it major or it's betsy? is the main european economic power, and this a main european police can lead to more serious things realizes also gets responsibility on this acute this is on the other side. it's also a message to the about because germany also states in this paper to be have realized that they have

a global response repeated. this is not only about mentioning china, is it possible to compare design this a systemic driver is to call him. it's also a bald germany is a global economic, global responsibility and distress. once again in capital building. the germany repast itself is a prominent member of the security, counting in the costs of the comprehensive port reform of to seek you with the cons to germany also wants to get on the global stage over. you heard, well saying they're talking about china and china's rule and all, and all of this, i want to ask you, you know, in this national security strategy, germany is saying that china poses a growing threat to global security. um, from your point of view, was this a surprise considering the fact that china is germany's top trading partner and the document doesn't say a still says the china is a partner, a competitor, and arrival. but, but how big of a shift is this? this language that we're seeing now to i think it is a shift and i think this matters small,

then the nitty gritty is off institutional innovations because this is a 1st step in the direction of redefining germany's role. and it's not like everything is put into this document and then we know for the next 10 years, what is happening. it's more a signal to get everyone on board outside of germany. and also addressing the pop league that we have to redefine our role. and part of the read definition is that we have to give up our life lies the one life live was. we can rely on cheap energy imports from russia. the other lifeline is we can rely on cheap pro dies, that'd be outsource to china and continue with the separation of well, we don't like your human rights record and we don't really see what's happening in the pacific because we are not directly involved. but we hear from the united states that we should do more, but we keep everything separate. this is not working anymore. and this is

a signal in the direction that we are recalibrating, our relationship with china, but it will be the beginning of a longer process. in which germany defines a china strategy and then the china strategy will also be part of a european china strategy. so this will be the most important change you want. i can see that you want to jump in. but before i let you do that, i also want to ask you the fact that the german government is also preparing a specific strategy regarding china transport shows decline to say when that might be published or released. um, let me ask you, when do you think that might be ready and what do you think that might include? so given the delays of business national security strategy, i don't want to necessarily try to predict when the china strategy might fall and, and as, as always, has already alluded to. this will be a difficult process. and this 3 way coalition, where some are trying to balance the economic interest and the slow shift,

the you're risking the economic relationship between germany and, and try it out on the one hand. and the much more hawkish stands this of the beijing on the other side. i would say i would underline what, what is said that, um, i think there's actually somebody criticize the strategy for only half a dozen mentions of china. i think we should, when you, when you read the strategy as much like many other european strategy documents or conversations about china. not every thing about china always says china on it's. i think if you look at the resilience chapter, there's a lot of talk on, on technology dependence on innovation and critical minerals on cyber on supply chains and so on. that are all in one or another way related to china in vulnerabilities and dependencies that germany has to address. so and,

and then there's also the endorsement of the, the risk approach by the european commission by president goes to the funder line and, and the reference to wider europe. so it's too simple to simply do control at china and you know that intellectually a little bit was easy and doesn't reflect the shift on china in the strategy. and then drum thinking, but that will be a process. it will be a longer process as all of these. oh okay. i just, i saw you're shaking your head along to uh well not even long rather to, to some of what you weren't was saying there. so go ahead and jump in. yes, exactly. what must, let's look at such a big strategy. strategy documents is also a message to your top us to your opponents and fit to your keeping china in my systemic rivals. and germany obviously doesn't wants to jump into the face of china, but it wants to be predictable, extra boyd spot, the sport, it's a bonus and all that. but china, yvonne's china to realize that they are considering that the

a way of that's china is let's say more carefully the challenge for germany and get the way i think they need to do something about it. and build up think is a very important issue. but they're all just talking about the prostate, find the resources you see, certainly necessary for germany and for the whole of europe. and i would say, if we got to be in most areas of germany beach, they wait. let's keep in mind what's happened during the call with 19 been many, many in europe, we had quite a lot of problems with medication, other issues. and now it's got crystal clear, the germany has realized these and they, they also waiting for big somehow leaving role. and let me stress and down the line . this is not only important for you. this is also important for the by the european region. and most of the other areas like africa and specific old work. i want to talk again about china for a couple of minutes we heard earlier in katya is report the critics say that germany's reliance on russian energy exports lifted vulnerable to political pressure from moscow. these are issues that perhaps didn't seem crucial to berlin

a few years ago, but they're now seen as potential problems going forward. how problem matic could this be for germany going forward? a while in the past germany, i'd be your opinion board kind of independent in formulating a strategy with other partners now with the war in ukraine, the balance of change. and a lot of observers believe that the relationship between the united states and the european union will change in favor of the united states or have changed already. and the same will happen between russia and china that china will dominate russia. and in that situation, both junior partners will be pushed to take sides and to re adjust the relationship . in the case of germany, we are in a different situation than many of the u. member states. because our big economics companies like the chemistry in china and b as, as well, the big com manufacturer is,

are so heavily invested in china. that the coupling would harm the german economy as china save doesn't the financial crisis. when that was such as the mon, so luxury cars that had helped us to maneuver out of the crisis with less harm than those were less engaged in china with k looked to me just now like you wanted to jump in. so go ahead. and what if we got to china said for it's necessary for germany and for europe to be able to capital edition bought some of the engine made a china because it is needed as it is also stretched into strategy as it pops up for solving some global issues a china is necessary as it pops up by combining climate change. if this makes discovery, is it possible for africa, respect that you in africa is necessary also for competing migrations. as china has a huge influence in africa and the some people say it's ruining the conference down there, work i'm, i'm sorry, i'm sorry to interrupt you, but while you're on that, but let me just ask you, you know,

we know that the german government is about to sit down in a, i think a few days time with the senior chinese officials. this meetings are going to be happening in berlin. obviously these meetings are going to be touching on, you know, very sensitive issues. how is germany going to navigate all this? they need to be extremely careful and need to be aware of this with the interest and piece as best outlined in peace national security strategy. either certainly necessary to find some kinds of compromises. it's on the other side also necessary to a pressure of china be regards to some issues of global interest, especially in regard to climate change. we have the bathing and discussing in europe a box containing a all apple using and so on. okay, i think the china is one of the most important companies uh, be forgot to apple using. so it is, it is really a difficult question and the side keeping this one question in mind, it is necessary to keep the prevents. they bought between china and taiwan because they have a peace offering impact on the european economy. keeping in mind that the production

of various electronic pieces inc, that one. so it's really a difficult issue, and it's important the china, the china, is a way of prove the strategy that germany has realized, the problems that you want me to use, a way of that needs to be done about you want. what does all this mean when it comes to european security cooperation with the west side? does this mean that germany is going to be taking the lead and all of this going forward? again, i think as, as, as you seen, german vegas us, you, the journey is the reward. having mobilize the whole of government discussion on this in order to build up that more robust, strategic culture in order to drive for good, i will call mentality the site and then this of the mental site and then the that mental shift in drum strategic thinking is an important step in the strategy, there's a real commitment on, on in this document to trans atlantic security and defense to a greater role, more responsibility on the drum site. the, the,

the commitment to the 2 percent defense spending, nato goal, all be it on a multi year average. we can talk about that perhaps a little more commitment to eastern slang, defense of the eastern blank of nato in central eastern europe commitments to nuclear sharing. now these are commitments that i think the united states expects up germany in any case, but it is important to send the signal from berlin that okay, we have understood and we have understood that our key allies are expecting a greater role from us. the key point now becomes how do you opperation allies those? how do you under pin this in terms of but budgets and how do you implement and drive the sport both on the operational side and the search engine cultures over to you on just brought up of germany's nato commitment some from your vantage point, how does germany see its role in nato and within europe going forward. well,

this is an interesting question and very hard to answer because i don't see the operational side as the nature of stumbling stone. i see public opinion as a bigger problem because we have lived this illusion for so many years that they can count on a peace dividend when the cold war was over. and now we focus on reforming all well for state and addressing climate change and democracy problems in whatsoever. and suddenly we wake up with war in europe and we have to respond to it. and the 3rd lifeline might also be that'd be count on cheap security provided by whoever is in the white house. and this is a very optimistic scenario. so we have to bring a lots to the table and informing the german populate the germination would take a leading role and declares its independence from what used to be very convenient and to take a leadership role and to painful things has not sunken in,

in public opinion, so you probably get a lot of support if you're just announced that we do more and we take responsibility. but when it comes to the practical implications, and we have seen this with every single step author reform problem says that the new government has announced since last year. the appetite for more or dealing with the consequences or who wins and who was in this faces. very harsh opposition by not only the opposition parties, but also by public opinion. so it remains to be seen how far a government can actually go with a new strategy. oh, we don't have a lot of time with it, but let me just ask you this security strategy also addresses things like strengthening society to face issues like cyber threats and, and climate change. but does it get into specifics the say, how these challenges will be faced or dealt with to. but as we said in the beginning, this is just a 1st step and

a holistic approach that addresses more of interest that you are military or narrow with security questions. this is important for the identity of the green party to think things in a holistic way. but at the end of the day, it's also a financial question and that was pretty vague, but we got from the minister of finance. so it remains to be seen. if we find enough resources, you weren't, we just have about a minute and a half left. i want to ask you about the fact that analysts have noticed that this strategy does not prioritize which threats possibly to fight, and they say that it doesn't contain many surprises. uh, what do you say? does it need to be more specific going forward? i think there's not a whole lot of strategy going the strategy meeting. how do you plan for plan ahead on how you achieve what ends with, which means that's not very concrete. that's often a dilemma of many of these national security strategies, though. but i do think they missed an opportunity to describe and lay out

a way forge and, and the way ahead on the follow that's, that's a missed opportunity. and then the institutionalization we already mentioned. and lastly, their review mechanism makes the next governments also look at a national security strategy and built that into this one. the 1st one ever. all right, well, we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guests over at bruckner with getting pushed i and you on like and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, l 0 dot com, and prefer the discussion go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash ag inside story. you can also during the conversation on twitter, our handle is at a j inside story for me. and i mentioned to him and the whole team here by the

the basically entities does the un fits of purpose like many critics sites just pub solution doesn't get anywhere near enough done to the amount of money that is put into a hard hitting into abuse. do you think look to the lines of washing it's enough for money to go on its own and built it's on don't providing on for centuries, people have been taken care of are. so i have every confidence that future generations will do it as well. you the story on told to how does era we understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world. so no

matter when you call out to 0 will bring you the news and current affairs. the houses in your investigative journalism. this was a very and as hard as it would have been absolutely impossible to walk for any like that before global exploits in discussion, the internet did not need to be the greatest tool of master variables in the history of the world. voices from different corners programs that open your eyes to an alternative view of the world today. not many people have seen this business to best select on outs and sierra how do states control information controlling the narrative to dominating the media? how does the narrative improve public opinion dependent norma? spite a might not be the most important story about china of today, but that's what the big piece of attention to how is citizen jim listened,

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