to the palace city and said, we'll see that, said trudy. 70 a fine animal views that has 12 sons and full of of the football players houses 0 wells tells, disposing success. story of why the only built by one family to become the champions against all the best we go into freedom, we have the oldest one family, one team on out to 0. molly's military rulers are proposing changes to its constitution. they say it will pay the way for a return to civilian will put in such a divided country. will it serve any purpose? and what role will the military have? this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much in june. it's a vote to approve or reject constitutional changes in molly supporters say the amendments will either transition from military rule to a civilian led government, but skepticism is growing. after years of cruise, political instability and social unrest, mistrust, and authority continues to be a fundamental problem. so is this referendum about actual change, or just political theater, and our democratic elections even feasible in the future, given the countries political and social tensions, will explore this and more with our guests in a moment. but 1st, our correspondent nicholas hock is in molly's capital by miko with more were in downtown by like the nation squared. this is where molly's have come out in the past due over through previous governments and to express themselves over the way their country is run. now they'll get a chance to express themselves through the ballot box in the historic vote. it's a story because there's been this desire to change the constitution since 1991. and

it seems that i'm always really treat you until advice to me. gods us is succeeding where previously democrats is re elected president has failed in organizing this referendum know ahead of this referendum. there was much debate among amongst intellectual academics, members of civil society in the opposition, in what would be inside the text. those that are for say, a group greater autonomy to the regions, more power to the president and it changes, for instance, the role of the french language no longer in the official language, but a working language is recognized as the diversity of the sovereignty of the molly in states, but those that are against a 70 secular nature of the tech is not in line with this country. that is a muslim majority country that has a long history of islam. and then there are those that say that this vote is not

credible simply by the fact that it's being carried by the mo, the military turns on, but also by the fact that many millions outside of the capital here in, by my code will not be able take part in the vote. why? because there's large parts of the doors in the center of the country that are in the hands of arms loosely outside and i so but no matter what. 8000000 volumes are expected to vote and have a space over the way their country is gover. and this ahead of the schedule presidential election that are expected to take place next year. from my coat, embodies nicholas hall for inside story. molly has struggled with political unrest for years back in 2012, the military over through the elected government in what was described as a major setback for democracy in africa. a transitional government was eventually established, but it too was overthrown by the military and 2020. and yet another 2 followed the

next year. now faced with a political crossroads, the military says it's paving the way for democracy and civilian leg government, particularly with the presidential elections scheduled for 2024. all right for more and all of this i'm joined by our guests in bama. co is fatima island star consulted on peace and security, and molly on the side of region. she's also the founder of to want a piece network in london is alex winds director of the after program for chatham house. and then you one day is maria or is a billow president of africa international media group and political commentator on africa affairs. a warm welcome to you on thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. i'm father. let me start with you today. um supporters of the referendum say that it's supposed to pay the way for a transition to civilian rule if it passes? will it really do that? i mean, this isn't really a great because patients has the, the new,

the front of them actually use what we can say. that is a big step before i actually do quarterly to uh, government keeping the ellipse on the agenda, which will be coming out very soon. and the new constitution is mentioned that the president, the current president, can actually design specially the ministry of president can resign from his ministry to upsetting these ends himself to become a president. so there is a chance that maybe the, the current president, uh, besides defends himself to the presidency, which is supported by the, by the new constitution. so need any, so it's something that can happen. what do you define that hasn't seen it in uh, the june that's on it a another debate. uh, but i feel like in some of the more curzy uh days that big 7 uh,

in that sense because even the fact that the, according to the gym is able to actually write the city for and um, and go to even mobilizing the populations from what is a big step because if i'm already jimmy 2017, was unable to do it because of their protocol. does that, does that agreement? i don't some of the new things i was was in the, in the new constitution and backs. uh they use uh, 3 different points that people are like worried about concerned about in the newly found um which is like the city the state because the images need or is asking for me to functional stage, which i also seen got to eat. so it's not something new because in the former, constitute some, it was students sick, you know, states. so why these now that you just need or is going against that?

so that's something that we should actually move who comes into the play. and the 2nd find is the rooms because the rooms are concerned that the power is not the centralized enough. oh, lesson power is given to the local news. and so they don't really see themselves in the indian unix randall. and the 3rd find these small power games with the president. so the pointed to go leader is those to the themself. some of them don't see themselves in the, in the problem given to the president in the way that the president can be solve the problem at any time he wants. and also the high as you do 3. 0, cool. so also easily by the president. so what day did you this, your people, i against that? so the, i'm sorry to interrupt you, i'm sorry, no jump. let's get into those details. it just in a short little while, let me ask alex right now if this referendum passes,

do you believe that the military will actually relinquish power as well? that is an open question as you have previous speaker just said, is very unfair whether the interim leader going to will actually run in the election. and so what do you know potentially become a civilian leader? and so that's a question mark over this. but i would agree that this is an important step. there's been such negativity and pessimism about molly and it's an ashley. but the, the, the whole way of looking at money at the moment is just to contain it. that this is a road map. it was agreed last year in july, the economic community of west african states that my staff for couldn't regional body said it would lift it sanctions if there was a road map. and this friend referendum is a, is a stepping stone. and that road map to, to, to elections next year. they were meant to have been in march this referendum, but there's been a delay. so it is important to see this as a, as a process,

however imperfect. it might be, we have some risks, the particular one i think is the concentration of power in the presidency. and we know, and also we'll, malia is come out and fight, which we will get to see the turnouts response of the referendum. marie roget um in such a divided country if this referendum actually passes will it? will it actually serve any purpose? its stories is story telling you validate from the current agenda. they want people to believe that this is really a step towards because uh, the organizing something looking like election. and because for me, uh, reeves even elected democratic it moved truck to move practically leaks elected regimes when not able to organize that route. brandon, but the question is, um, is we for random say something positive if the outcome is that,

as has been mentioned already, to be the president, we'd be, we'd have more power. i'm each readings will towards a dictatorship because he can do some b. c will appoint department is the government and he's missed them whenever he wants to move out any account uh our, and easily uh, can you go to going today to move forward when the country? so divide it about that because many believe that the, the, the ministry agenda is not legitimate in organizing such a heavy thing in changing constitution and things like that. why they, i'm not electric. and they're being there. they, they say, you know, they took power to say, telling people that they are there to, to help

a set to the security issue. we see that the file from it and the now a closing. so it's kind of a direction because none of these issues on the table all touched, you know, the, uh they going to leave our after these is i'm not sure when they have more democracy. after that, you're not sure. what do you have more? you need 2 more piece, input county after that, you're not sure. so what is happening now? the important thing is which is happening now, is that i see me going down once to run after the transition and that he's at chattering a go solution which leads to that and the we, we are used to act we, we have a con um situation in central african republic way, it's a,

it's not a community to agenda, but as i see in government, but the president to idea would it be finishing his 2 terms and he's not to allow to run the game. so he's trying to change that. we've a new constitution, same thing we've been referring to murray or say, i'm sorry to we, i'm sorry to interrupt you, but i, i want to ask with regards to the point you made about assuming going to i actually want to ask fotz him about that fall to my do we know at this stage if assuming going to who is the john to leader who's the answer and president that it, whether or not he will actually run for president when the next round of elections happens? and what would the implications of that be if you did? oh, that's me. that's a very good catch on. everybody's asking themselves, but then you would have random. i've tried to give him what are they shuffled around for the president? so the chances of him running is they're really he has the right to run by the phase. we don't see any other political leaders who can run against him right now because the political leaders have lost track of the population. so the population

right now is you who kind of have what tries to ask me. we've done to, to the political leaders so that he's not as strong a one that is right now. so the chances of given him being asked by the population to run for the presidency is higher because there is no struggle going in right now in place. and i think the implication of that i don't know, nationally, it's supported by the local population, but i don't know internationally how, how the international community would go about that. but do this, what i'm doing? i try to give him a transition to run for the presidency, which he decides to resign from. he's the ministry of duty, which will know in the next 2 months that he's coming. alex looked to me like you wanted to jump in on that point that uh fatima was making. uh so please go ahead. yeah. yeah. so,

um the drop constitution um that the referendum tomorrow, it emphasizes the present and cannot extend for 2 tons of the clock starts back. and there is a regional norm of 2 times and then out. but it also provides amnesty for the abuses that happened before the new constitution, which will therefore exonerate the, you know, the juncture and of us i, i do look at it in a way of but this is transition politics. the situation in, in, in molly is very grave, but the, the, the states and by ma, get out to bama code doesn't have affective control of a large parts of, of, of molly. but we do need to think of ways of how to move forward a bear in mind also the but yesterday at the you weren't in new york, the foreign minister of molly, after like a deal to said that the un peace keeping operation. mendoza. and i should leave

promptly. and so again, you know, this raises issues of how to what find a way forward in a very difficult situation. and i do think that this referendum might at least be attempt of a directional travel, however floor and the problems that were the other speakers have have highlighted. murray was a how much new question, the legality of amendments to the constitution being carried out by a non democratically elected government. and that's one of the major problems. and especially when you know what they have in the back of the mines is not really to uh, to uh, gives account a new institutions. uh because that, uh, that would be an emergency. that would be some really actually me. the problem is that they do me all of these just to find the way out of the commitment not to run as a transition, a transitional,

a president. he's noted that he can meet the team so not to run towards the equal watch towards on 5 most on to it. now he's trying to uh, uh, overcome back hood. that's basically what it is all about. and we've been seeing that many times in, in can in many other situations and that we just not surprised and organizing or referring to the something easier than an election because is a question. yes or no. what? yeah, they would come up by and say, well, 90 percent, little agree, you know, wait to do to check that to verify that we had that many times before. that's the classic situation and we will have that again. we have that include the wall. we have that in, in, in calculus countries. so it basically that's just what is happening now because molly is in the phase very difficult situation as we know. and especially what they

came for was to, we store some kind of security. so i'm kind of old actually back, they can try to implants new, a new government, new civilian government, because we cannot go back a military government for forever. and that was a job. and the under and in doing so, maybe uh make sure that and all of the normal life of the police easier. you don't see that the really, um, but what i can say is that, uh, be the military agenda is, has some kind of popularity because they have been working on june uh, the cooler nearly legacy. and this is very popular to our french, not only in my leads, that's been great, but with the french army a that's been very popular in other countries that can come home way. i am way i

know the color scheme estimate quick to had a little fence and the fact that in the new constitution he's seeing that trend french is no longer a new building, which this is colonial, like he's saying is a working language. but for the, for that, but the point is, uh do, do we e x, do we accept a government which is not the electorate trafficking we've random's and, and we all that i'm not even sure that actual warranty will do elections if in really rare, hey, i'm deep, i'm sorry, what i'm sorry to interrupt you. i want to ask fall to my question. you heard alex felt him a few minutes ago. talked about the fact that molly is called on to you in to withdraw its peacekeeping mission from the country without delay. how much does all this complicate the situation on the ground? i mean, so far, total weeks now or even say for a month. uh, we have to put this under his feet of slow young people asking for the dispatch of

them in his mouth. so that is not something new because they have been always increasing on demands of. i mean, he's my in my lead that he does not reflect to do the already in the concrete so days. no this to keep. so why would you be having it? because we can't though, it is keeping me turn into concrete. so i, i'm hoping that this big step i would like to tell them how to get into the un won't be accident reports, unity for us to actually discuss on mondays with them. and it's not cannot lease publicly, but it's very important for them to actually see how they're going to adjust the day monday to do the out of the, of the local situation. but in my money worried and what are you doing? a lot of other people use this sub position on the back of the nation, which is the different elements barks because we have on that on us for, for the you in this week in the nation. in going, somebody was leading off to you reading about michael that are going to pull out of job. so it really has planned for those people because when you have

a youth out of jobs, that our video, but also really to be able to get that by our roommate attorneys. so we would need the water. he's like, is a quarter of a government lift gate, all the economy and come crisis would be to take on all those of you who are going to be out of jo when meetings my leave. so so, so that's the main concern, the development of parks, dissemination part of the nation. that's my how would the current government be able to fit in to the economy which is already weak, but they told me that somebody is supporting i'll tell you the departure of the media smart meet some cities have been in. ready for a long time, alex, i saw you are reacting to some more thoughts about was saying there looks like i want to jump in. i think this is a. yeah, this is a really important point. i mean, i know some has been operational since 2000 and. busy 13 and it's a major employee and source of investment into, into an, into molly. and so it's,

it's withdrawal, as you've just heard, is going to be very disruptive. so it is important that the you and continues to have a monday for like peace support and development, the, the, the, the municipal mandate. as a peacekeeping operation has failed. now it does need to go, but that needs to be something that continues. and actually my know smaller and algeria were really influential, important and, and, and pushing full this product roadmap. we have a referendum the so that good offices have had a role the you and special representative based and in and by my po. and i'll go see one made that point yesterday in the un security council, for example, alex, i also want to ask you about this potential timeline for elections. and the expectation is that when elections happen, it would probably be in 2024. do you think that's realistic to such

a good question and slip the security situation in an in large pots of money is very uh, you know, it is very volatile, alarming. there is some areas very difficult to pull off an election. there are local political compromises, for example, right. and, you know, in the north of the country around kiddo that we're, you know, to are at groups at the moment. and you vehicles that got radical islamic groups, that of a, you know, kind of profiting outs of some of the security vacuums. so i could see the calendar of elections being delayed because of in security and the russian investments into security. the wagner crew having provided security guarantees which the, which the jump to has set that, that, that, that they are doing. so this is problematic. and uh, but it, it is really important that there is some sort of an election as part of this process. but how that's going to be inclusive and difficult security situations is, you know, i have no clear answer to that rewards a what,

what do you think when it comes to the prospect of elections, do you think that this timeline can be adhered to? and i think that the prospect of a prospect of elections can, is even feasible when it comes to all the, all the tensions, the political, societal, all security challenges. and molly, but you know, i would say the background think is that trust time. uh, they may need to jump to have to be a timeline when they will, retreat and the fellow, they say 5 years, they want to buy his transition, which is the regular electron lee elected a regime victory president. so it shows that they don't want to be back in the being, you know, discussing we've, we've got a glass on that and going back and forth towards months, 18 months now $24.00. they these not something that they want to do. they don't

want to leave, so i just wanted to see something of that and then each month and the appropriate on that, um the, the, the current losing the junk immediately junk. what they've been doing is to, as we use the political space of money, you know, when you decide to out the french many different came in this time that especially africans. but uh and uh, you decide to disrupt your relations with your neighbors with a cost. so we've the some that and you know, going to to you and, and everything starting the president of nice, nice, yeah. seeing the, basically the, basically that is not from these. yeah. because he's like, scheme, those kind of things. and now, you know, expanding or new, you know, we have a lot of, uh, a phone. uh, i would say pop most embody, will be leaving now and be new somebody they want them to leave. i mean,

i don't think is the very good thing for money to be in the sort of the i is the legion a, b, y, all the people to try to extend that problem. and she's the only 2 bathroom in russia. and you don't see it. you, you, you just ask, what is a plan, what is the largest picture for that where you're going to expanding, expanding, chasing people. it's a oh, you know, the meeting, everything. so what, what degree did the, the way i don't use it, we problem now also, and then i think is be a really going over their job. the transition, the scandals move student should be best to an elected go fatima. we don't have a whole lot of time left, but i want to ask you about one particular aspect when it comes to all this many molly and won't be able to take part in the vote because there's large parts of the country that are in the hands of arm groups linked to al, tied to an i. so how does that impact all this? so yeah,

that's why i from the beginning i always feel like going towards the election right away is not the solution. if we look, i did what molly, since the independence today, we had type of side included tasks and each each quarter because we have been having the same way of solving the problems. a glass international community was functional in the country force as well and organize the election. we don't really solving the close of the problem, which is the is security and which is the like the fact that the money on the government does not have the control of our territory at home. so if i started to stand again to go to the election, we don't really solve investigating issues. we will not have another who did that, i would say in another 3 years in another 4 years, or even 5 years again. so i've seen that before, even going to organize the electronic isn't very, very important to come out with concrete security plan on how to save control over the uh, it's a tell you of the country. otherwise,

we'll go to the electronic business days and i can guarantee you that the electron will happen. management will have speeds will be delayed in a month or 2 month, but the next on will happen. mm hm. and we might have an elected president, it will be a former president, or it's going to be a civilians but has not gone for a long lasting democracy because we haven't really solved the real cause of the problem, which is the, the, the security situation in defense that we don't have the control of our to retreat and they still a lack of who governments in the, in the way of, in the country. all right, well we have run out of times we're gonna have to leave our conversation there. thanks so much. all of our guess fall to my love song, alex whines and marie rose a bill. and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. obviously we're dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash age and side story. you can also do in the conversation on twitter or handle is at aging inside stores for me and how much enjoying the whole team here,

bye for now, the, the the the ideals, the friends for public, his loan for claims, which is what is more than friends in

a full pot series, the big picture takes an in depth, not from the same size episode to allergies. there is a well phyllis list and drama hopper up the chasing india celebrities. it's a high stakes game one when he goes behind the lines with those hunting for the picnic chest on. now just ever. how do they control information? how does the narrative improve public opinion? how is this as intended? listen, we flaming the story. the listening post, i think the media, we don't cover the news because of the way the news is covered with a wave of sentiment around the world. we would actually want accountability from the people who are running their countries. and i think often people's voices, adulthood, because it's not part of the mainstream news. marcy, obviously we cover the big stories and we report from the big events is going on. but we'll say, tell the stories of people again, we don't have a voice. i mean,

one of the charm. well that's never be afraid to put your hand up and ask a question. and i think that's what i actually really does. the all the questions to people who should be accountable. and also if we get people to give that view of what's going on, i'm going to cover all of latin america for most of my career, but no country is a light and it's my job to shed light on how and why i the i am serial then yay in doha, the top stories on alpha 0, this our us secretary of state anthony blinking is meeting china as far administered team kung and beijing. it is the 1st such visit in 5 years. a meeting in february was postponed after a suspected chinese bible and flew over the us. katrina, you has more from badging thinking and certainly looking for insurance is from the us. assurance is that it was metal and what it sees is it's domestic.