yes, how does the narrative in full public opinion intended norma, spite, you might not be the most important story about china of today. but that's what the big piece of attention to. how is citizen, tim listened? rephrasing the story. the listening post, i fixed the media. you don't cover the news because of the way the news is covered under the expedition gone wrong. the titan set, most of all that went missing last sunday and to combine science with tourism. similar to private troops under the seo into space have raised billions of dollars, building eyes and saves that helps fund science and industry. what are the risks to hi, this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm for the back people. governments used to be the main fund is a see and space expeditions, but commercial companies offering adventures to the ends of the earth and beyond. attracting billions of dollars every year. some of the dangers and commercial cx probation have been exposed by the pride of the 5 men on board the titan submersible that went missing. so all these multi $1000000000.00 industries contributing to size. and how do such adventures benefit society will put back to our guests in just a moment. but 1st, let's take a closer look at how private companies are pushing boundaries in space and under the seat. commercially investments in the space race have tripled. more than a $110000000000.00 in 2005 to nearly $357000000000.00 in 2020 in may 2020 space x became the 1st private company. just send people to the international space station. in july 2021. blue origin incentives 1st,

commercial service into sub orbital space. and this year, virgin galactic is about to send customers into space. in 2019 and american explorer broke a record by descending nearly 11 kilometers to the deepest place in the pacific ocean. what did he find? sea creatures anaplastic back and some sweet rapids and accompany ocean gates has sought to further expand see tories in taking people deeper into the ocean than ever before. now away from commercial ventures, scientists, the shining lights deep into space and the oceans. in july 2022, the james webb cap to this 1st images and from deeper into space and any telescope before in june, scientists found phosphorus on one of satins moons and essential elements needed for life. and looking down, scientists recently found more than 5000 new species of marine life on a sea bed between hawaii and mexico. but the deeply concerned too,

as the areas in los for deep sea mining from transparent east just dietz legged, spite of fish, scientists are continuing to discover a strange lie forms at grated that the as well as spring. and i guess now for today's inside story in keel gemini, sylvia sanders, who's chair of the european marine board working group on deep sea and ocean health and bristol, as the piece and an astrophysicist and space trend list and in christian signed in no way evicted, doing shaft was head of sociology and social work at the university of actor. thank you. to all 3 of you for joining us on inside story today. sylvia in keel. let me start with you. as we've said in the past few years, commercial space. torres and companies owned by building as a jeff bezos, richard branson, and eat on mosque has been making headlines with sending paying customers into

space. how developed is commercial, deep ocean exploration, and why do people go into these extreme expeditions? well, that's a good question. i think it's an adventure, right? people have done adventures since the humans are on inhabiting the else. and so i think that's one of the main reasons that people just i am for the venture. um, i'm not i think i'm quite certain that this kind of tourism that has led now to this tragic loss of, of the title is not helping um you know, learning more about the deep sea for example. um, but i think we also um, from the marine board from this working group i'm leading we are looking into the impact of research even we are doing. and we are doing this in principle to,

to learn and understand the ocean. and it consist of and not just to have a glimpse of, of some sea creatures down there. i mean, the, the, the system is very fridge island, very slow. it's very cold and very deep. so everything is growing very, very slowly. and it can easily be biggest or so noise is an issue on but also look like whirling up settlement and so on. so i'm, i mean it's, it's very sad for those people. definitely. right. but i don't see how this kind of adventure is helping the research in general for the deep thing. sylvia how, how developed is commercial, deep ocean exploration. when you compare it to, to space commercial expiration. i do know that there are, there are really some adventures. i think which are rich enough to follow their own

vessels like the person you you've mentioned before and that are, you know, sponsoring themselves to, to go down there with a little or and um, but then there are these really sort of the organizations like with a title, now i think that the different thing is again we kind of just say um commercial organizations going down into the deep sea. right. i think it's, it's, you know, you have to differentiate. and of course there are also, um, organizations like the smiths, ocean organization that are non governmental that are really funding research like through research. so i think it's like always it's a political wise and isn't all clear. friendship. yeah, exactly. yeah. interesting as he let me come to you it and we talk about space now because that's what you specialize in, in terms of scientific explorations. of course, we've come,

leap at leaps and bounds. in the past 10 years, we've collected data from one of satins loans. we've spent telescopes into deep, deep space. how have private companies like space ex, blue origin disrupted this traditional model of government led space explorations and, and what do you see as the benefits and drawbacks to them? one of the big changes that's happened is that it's led to a lot more small emissions happening. so for instance, a couple of weeks ago that was the ac seem to mission which allowed the saudi the nation to put the 1st 2 extra notes into space on a board space x rocket. and so it allows people who might not have been able to go into space before because they couldn't afford to do an entire space program and built their own rockets. but they can now pay for one to send that, that their experience and that astronauts into space. and we're seeing that. uh, that's gonna happen a lot at noon, specifically over the next couple of years. there's a whole bunch of private land is the all planning on being able to go to the moon

and take experiments that won't leave. that's to fuel masters, ultimate mission. but also there's lots of people who from everybody from universities that private individuals are going to be able to use those. but the problem that comes with that is, if this is a very new industry, that's not a lot of regulation that's going on at the moment. which means basically if your you get the okay to, to launch your vehicle, you can pretty much, once you're in space, but there's not a lot of people who can control and say what you're doing throughout that. um, so that's kind of one of the problems that's coming in from that. right. and it's interesting that you bring up the question of regulation because that's a real issue when it comes to to deep c expiration. and i'll come back to sylvia in a moment, but uh, i wanna get your thoughts 1st. victor, it seems that the question today is into whether you can actually get fed to space or the deep ocean. it's whether you can afford to get fed. what are your thoughts about these commercial expeditions into space and, and the deep sea how?

how do you see them benefit in society? the state. well, there's no doubt that space exploration in of itself can be easily beneficial to humanity and certainly under the interest of the state or private enterprise. so we've seen technology, everything from lead balances, certain types of running shoes, cat scans, uh, wireless headsets and sort of also been such a benefit in some way from, from the space raise during the cold war. and that might very well continue through the umbrella of these private entrepreneurs. and space exploration satisfies a kind of innate human desire to explore the venture forth into the unknown. there seems to be a kind of common human impulse to, to explore and figure out what lies beyond an expense, so to speak. but there are significant risks and costs i would argue associated with transferring power to these private enterprises in the domain of space exploration. so it's in a way, it's usually ironic said people like you on must speak of turning us into a multi plan terry species of a form of risk mitigation,

i guess potentially catastrophic climate change. when the does, it ends and hundreds of rocket launches. we see taking place now around the world, threatened to accelerate climate change and the united nations environment program speaks the creation of temporary focus on ozone, holes around a launch site. so there are potentially significant environmental harms from these cost rock launches. um, but that's such a one issue. there's also the political, regulatory side of things as the previous speaker mentioned controls or what goes on in our space. so risk front costs, especially when it comes to the environment. but what about uh victor, ethical concerns to what ethical concerns should be considered? yes. so what are the benefits of what is called old space to the meaning of the kind of cold war model where the state government is in control of what goes on terms of the outer space, is that then you have a certain element of democratic control of so, so the question is really, who controls it goes on an outer space and the future will be governments. and by

extension, the people, the public won't be big, private corporations, and individual super wealthy billionaires, perhaps even truly an errors we may, might come into a situation where, where the 1st truly knows this kind of space entrepreneur. so, so there's that issue and there's also the issue of course, of the middle of the reservation of space which is connected to 10 generally to this issue. a satellite technology is of course heavily involved in the building of a kind of cloak spanning military industrial complex. there is a test ban. treaty of 1963 of bands you colorado and the testing outer space, but we're seeing the establishment of the us space forced as an element of, of militarization on nuclear. i station a startup motorized ation of outer space and more will probably happen on that front end of years to come. yeah, survey. what are your thoughts about this? uh, victor posit pulls that important questionnaire about who controls and who benefits from this when it comes to dfcs duration. this is an issue like especially in terms

of the regulation, what kind of challenges are you see and how do you address them? any of you? i mean, i think in that sense, we're a little ahead of space in the marine realm because we do have some jurisdiction and legislation in place. we've got the united nation and uh, i caught the convention on the low of to see your cloths. and um was also just yesterday actually signed the b, b a j, a test bar to, to the beyond the national jurisdiction. so we do have legal instruments in place and it's not kind of the wild west down there. and of course there is also, uh, this is the, the area, the open ocean um, outside of the national draw restrictions. um, of course people can do what the national jurisdiction is allowing within the

that so that's different to um and that's counts for, you know, i guess private operations but also things like deep sea mining and so long. but i think some people have realized that it's really necessary to set up organizations that are taking care of the auction for human content and, and for, for the benefit of the years. um, and probably it's the only time that before it destroyed, we, as the humans destroyed an echo system that we are thinking about it right now and try to at least put the regulations in place. i guess how good they would work india and that will be what be seen, but there is an, an effort to do so. okay. interesting it, as a, you know, we talked about some of the significant achievements in a space, exploration, and also commercial space exploration. to some extent. there are

a lot of people asking today why is the money being spent, you know, by companies, by these private companies and commercial companies. why is this not being spent on, on, you know, mans expiration and given to governments for example, would that make a difference? you think well, with a lot of these, the private base companies obviously fail. they all businesses, they are trying to make money, but it's people using money to make more money. so that's best of primary go. they have logic goals of being able to be able to, to perhaps go into malls and do things like that. but that is sort of the primary concern. but what, what is the reward reward in terms of a financial gain and scientific exploration? so in terms of, of scientific exploration, if it really is kind of, it's more what's best buy is more of, of a tool and it's giving access to people to be able to then go in and do what they

want with it. so it is these private space part companies all still open to the governments. in fact about, that's one of the reasons why blue origin is base x exist is because not so hired to them that you feel the spacecraft to, to operate folder. and that's in fact, one of nice is big goals is to support us companies in the space industry. so it's, it's giving a different way to be able to conduct any scientific experiments, but is out of the hands of just this one government agency is, is, is the general idea. it is obviously it's still cost a lot of money, but it is a lot cheaper to to hire a company to send your spacecraft into space than it is to build a rocket to send just update yourself. right. uh victor, you your thoughts about this and, and you know, looking at the future, how might technology and scientific advancements change our approach to space exploration and even deep cx ration you well i,

i think it's important to bear in mind that there is a certain kind of false self understanding, amongst the libertarian silicon valley, billionaires, this kind of heroes of free enterprise. and i, i agree with the previous speaker that there was, in fact, the kind of invocation with government funding and contract of restructure. so this kind of ayn rand idea that many of these base alternatives have about themselves as belied, but they're almost complete dependency and reliance on, on government funding. so, so it's important to not necessarily takes industry at their own the accept their phone premises as it were. and the co author of thomas holden, myself, was developed this concept, which we call capitalist kind of the idea that certain private business and entrepreneurs like to present themselves as if they are bad acting on behalf of humanity. but in reality, reality, of course, they are acting on behalf of their own pocket books, so to speak, on behalf of the bottom line of their companies. and so that the carries with

a certain risks of the outer space domain. we also have this outer space treaty of 1967. it's a very progressive in some sense why does a piece of legislation on international treaty which states that the exploration and use of our spain shall be carried up for the benefit and interest of all of mankind all of humankind. so there is this kind of legal ideal uh, from, from the cold war era that, uh, the resources on offer out, an outer space should be made available to all of humanity. but whether that will actually become reality or not, seems somewhat dubious, given the, the way things are going and politically and economically. and it's as field. yeah . it still be i speaking about a, you know, the comics of all of it. i was curious to know whether the, these companies that are engaging in dfcs ration today or the property accounting for, for the potential costs and, and the risks and potential costs of rescue missions. for example,

with the example of the recent case and, you know, are they, uh, also accounting for the environmental damage that comes with it. an adult that they will do. i mean, this will cost a huge amount of money and this risk you, um activity and, but i mean that's, that's always in the see if something gets lost, everybody is helping to find the drive. right. but um, of course people are putting themselves at risk of their own choice. um, so i'm not entirely sure if they are insured for me to cover the cost or not. um i, i, if i just checked out and yeah the me to do take, do you, do you know about this? i mean, do they take into account the risks and costs associated with, you know, failing and emission like this? i think of all those priced into the contracts. i don't want to speak to the detail day to day operations and kind of business affairs of these corporations which are not by large public listen to corporations. so some of these details are probably

not not available to the public or to researchers. um, but i would reiterate the, the importance of, of maintaining the validity of the outer space tree of 1967 despite these developments. right? so, so then the question becomes sylvia, and i'm going to come to you as in a 2nd, but just wanted to get your thoughts sylvia, on how to balance the risk to the individuals to the environment. and, and, and, you know, for the organization is eating these traits against a potential value for society as a whole, how do we balance it all i mean, to be fair, i don't see a benefit to the society and an a to see if we see here so sadly, every use we are watching. um i really don't see any benefit to it. it's really an adventure. people are taking end up paying money for that. right. um and uh, the,

the research that is done in the deep sea which is very expensive, is founded by a national organizations like governments, right? to do research. they have still more like international and they're open to, to all nations. right. but um, are they are not funded by these kinds of organizations? so tell us about some of the recent successes in, in which are not funded by these private companies. tell us about some of the recent to successes in deep cx ration. and what we've learned as a result. well, i mean in the 1st place we, we know very little about the deep sea right. then every time, so a head count or something like that is done. we find that over 50 percent of the species we are bringing up and we can specify our unknown so far. so there is a vast amount of organisms in species, in the deep sea,

we have got no idea about and every time an expedition is going down, they find new species. and in some cases we, they find that there are actually in large numbers down there, right? that they're really having a big impact on the system down there and was still in by now. haven't known about them. so i'm more than 90 percent really of the deep sea is completely unknown because of its vastness because of its steps because it is very deep really. and we, we, it's, it's difficult to get down there. right. but i mean the successes at the moment is really that we do find these organisms and that we, we have got the possibility of collecting samples in a very good way, mostly using remote oper, agent vehicles, because they are much cheaper than main supp. most of us and they do have exactly

the same capability as men, so both of those. so there are very few minutes of, most of both actually in, in action for to research at the moment as the assessing, you know, the risks associated with these types of missions, whether in space or in the deep sea. how do you think nations, organizations, and, or companies prepare for the possibility of accidents or emergencies? and in other words, how do we balance the desire for exploration with the potential risks and dangers associated with it? well, certainly when it comes to national agencies, the united masses and is the, the european space agencies are sort of the big example. there is a, a lot of concern put on safety. does a lot of measures that have been put into place and also looking back historically throughout the space age that have been tragedies, people have died and they've taken

a lot of responsibility folder when it happens. there's always been a huge inc quest, human space flight. what stopped the of the challenger, it's stopped that for about 2 years. well, stay investigated exactly what was going on to make sure that that in the stakes wouldn't happen again. so suddenly there is a precedent of, of what to do in the space industry to make sure or minimize risks to probably because if, when your, if you want to protect human lives and also, you know, it's you, they don't want to lose the emissions either. so it's, it's safety is always a very big concern, whether that's human or overall technician, even whether that will filter onto these private companies. remains to be, say, a, it is worth saying that there is a lot of sticking in the us. there's a lot of regulations about what you can launch. so the s i wouldn't let you launch a spacecraft if they think it's dangerous. you need to be able to approve, but it can support human safely before they'll even that you launch it. so

certainly in, in the us there is, there is a lot of safety checks that go on when it comes to a space like okay, victor, i'll ask you the same question. we've heard about the risks and the challenges, the risk to the environment, the risk to the individuals as well. what role do you think government and non governmental organizations can, can play in better regulating all this? well, i think a couple of we can play a significant and expanded role in terms of particularly implementing an idea of like a space taxed a particular tax on space resources. asteroid mining, for instance. uh, also satellite launches and satellite forbes has remaining is kind of a science fiction idea of store for ways in the future. but we need to start thinking about the political, economic, regulatory environment around those, potentially significant resources out there. and one model for inspiration might be the case of more ways on base and in norway, scandinavian society,

which is the discovery and significant oil resources in the sixties and seventies and taxed those resources very heavily. indeed, in order to fund a generous welfare state, was like free public health care and on higher education so on. and so it's really allowed to reach a government so to fund of it's day to day activities and, and them in lieu of state ownership of a se. selectivity is there needs to be at least a minimum of a minimum of the kind of space tax employees to capture windfall profits, ensure the ordinary people, taxpayers, or for you to read in some fashion, for those to significant investments they've made. and establishing. and i called the broad the ecosystem so that has allowed prior to enterprise to blossom around outer space activities today. hm. and very interesting as the, the benefits. so what, what are your thoughts on this? how does everyone benefit from this? and what exciting developments on the, on rise and that you think might have a impact on society. space industry is very much

a part of our daily lives dps distance. i use one every day. it's how food gets around the world and communications. all of these kinds of things there is, there is a very big benefits that come from being able to get into space. there's also quite a lot of research that can be done with humans in space, flight, and it might be much more on time, but getting out there and exploring the universe. i personally think would be a good thing. the question is, is when we're, when is those benefits going to show? um i think in terms of things that we've got coming up is going to be really interesting. i mentioned earlier, people are going to be going back to the moon next as altima as mission. and there's going to be a lot more robust technicians going to go ahead of that. the are going to take a lots of small emissions towards them. there's. there's also small companies that are sending rovers and things to the surface of the moon. so i think it's going to

be a big opportunity for some of the, the, some of the industries out the, to start benefiting from that space exploration. all right is sylvia. you have the last word. what does the future look like for deep sea exploration? what does it look like? well, i think it's really robotics a ton of most instrumentations that use only little energy and can cover long distance us. so, i mean there is even kind of a no impact to the core for, for research. and i'm not sure if i'm, if i'm for that, but there is thought, you know, of, of sending out remote operated instrumentation to do the research for us. i guess it can be done in, in the lot of the fields, you know, where you're like, where you met, or where you, you can measure remotely,

but not everything can be done remotely. so i think the, the research expeditions on board of a ship will, will remain and, and i think they're very necessary to really discover more of the ocean and to see the connectivity of everything. because we, we haven't for the, on the, on the stuff that and i think it's very important to know the baseline. we are at this very moment without the ocean before. something like climate change takes in a change in the drive. yeah. um and there is yeah i, i think but i think the way the remote operates of the vehicles are the future for us to go. okay, thank you. oh, very much for a very interesting conversation. i learned to lots at me. thank you. sylvia center as a piece and, and victor learn some us. thank you and thank you to for watching. you can always

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matter why you call out to 0 will bring you the news and current affairs. the houses here the all 5 people on board, a deep sea submersible or presumed dead after their vessel was found in pieces from a catastrophic implosion. the light from a headquarters and don't find any you navigate is also coming up for ty nationals have been charging malaysia in connection with the discovery of nice great.