so i have to give us the guys for thursday and friday slowly, but surely. we think the cloud west struggle gives us to true passion, red face. just where humanity defines expectations with freedom as well. i'm told stories from across asia and the pacific one or one each on outages era, the semester recovers from once, it cools foggins verbally and as a new focus on private tommy's. so used in many conflicts around the world. but how much of a press all the for the global older on sunday, the stopped this is inside story, the

how it welcome to the going to hell robin. the mutiny by rushes involved the most and degree push all the lights on the shot. we will the privates holidays. they all for it then complex settings around the world. best services have been employed by governments sun to piracy operations, and even by some engineers. but what's other risks of the soldiers to hire and how much of a threats holiday to the international order and international peace, and what role will they play in the future? we'll pull those questions on more to our guests in just a few moments. but 1st, this report from alex that the moose and regroup once in lock step with russian president vladimir, who's in n o, an existing, she'll threat to shoot you an option that will we will protect our people in our state hood from any threats including internal be trail and what we're facing is

betrayal. exorbitant ambitions and personal interests led to treason. tens of thousands of fights is loyal not to the kremlin, but to give guinea precaution, he's growing his private military force and to a global power. active, not just in ukraine bus across africa. wagner has worked with governments and miller trees and the central african republic, libya molly and sue don fighting ribble groups regard and has also reported military and political influence in check mozambique, and some bob way of the sheer scale of arguments. operations has exposed the risks of private armies, and vodka is just one of many recent years have seen major masonry activity and given nigeria, ukraine, syria, and a rock. among other places. these beings advice about what laws govern private armies and if they can be held to account when they find his commits crimes, no one knows how much the industry is worth. bus businesses booming. one of the

most advanced and best known masonry groups of the american academy formerly known as blackwater. it tied a substantial role in both iraq and afghanistan. so the us government, well, u. k based a g 4 race contract is at one time was responsible for providing meely food of old non military convoys in iraq. today the group is present and move in 125 countries . companies like these, the operating on nearly every continents and provide tens of thousands of highly trained prices for hire. but it's not only governments who are paying for the services. multinational corporations are the biggest new clients. they're using moves and rates to protect their investments. especially mining sites and shipping routes, even in g o's including safe the children and will vision have turns to guns for hire, to protect the operations and dangerous regions. and with conflict on the rise world

wide, it looks likely that private military companies. i hate to stay at like, speed inside story the let's bring it all guess way in honolulu, hawaii show my face a full and military contract doing all of the multiple mastery in copenhagen. so can mccloud a member of the you in working group on the use of medicine, race and the washington dc. and john left a fox group expert with focused on conflict in africa. well, welcome to all of our guests on inside story. a lot of the basis to, to hit on this particular program that's just begin with the fact shown if i can come to you 1st, honolulu. and we started seem to show that the best reason could be more dangerous and more lethal militarily and politically. the one might imagine bit of a wake up coal, really, isn't it? 12 feet as it is. i mean, it certainly shows the risks of relying on private for us to do your bidding,

especially a mass like the wagner group. but we can't forget that mercer is of the 2nd oldest profession. they are very hard to control. they can be very fickle. what we saw over the past weekend is this is not new in history. so i think the problem also is, is that world leaders up to this point have generally seen mercenaries as cheap hollywood billings. and that's not true. they're very dangerous. john left the can i get your opinion on this? because as shown just mentioned historically, i mean we can go back to william the conqueror on the 11th century, you know, using high and sold to come back to and make conquests of england. really a and stop. you might say the british moment, k as a whole list here as well from, from syria to a to lead to even the pope using mess and read. what should the general opinion of what we've seen over the last sort of 48000 as

a continuing story isn't to it's about what's going on in the right site outside of russia. yeah, i mean, 1st i would agree with the show and make face that is the use of mercenaries and their role in conflict. there's nothing new. and really, it's only been in the past 200 years or so that we seen the development of national standing armies. and i think, as mr. mac fitness pointed out in his own book, the world is beginning to revert and change again to the privatization of security and warfare. i think specifically what it means for governance, especially within russia at the moment, is uh yes, the mercenary groups are in uh, both can both work for the state but are driven by and by profit. and they can be an incredibly useful tool, but a dangerous to the same time if they're not satisfied with a particular outcome. so we'll talk about the sort of legality of what's going on

globally in a moment. but in terms of investments, it's difficult business, isn't it? rarely pay the right pipe price. you buy the right man in guns yours, but it will come back to bite you in the posterior. if you haven't paid enough. and this is what seems to be developing goal has been a historical scenario for quite some time. well, i think what we've, what we've seen that the, the weekend is the, the consequences or the regulations privatization of the, the, the use of for sun and, you know, my kim bailey, we wrote many centuries ago that the mercenaries are dangerous. they're, they're unreliable. you kind of, you kind of trust them and i think that's, that's very much for where, you know, what we've, what we've seen here, but be over and above that the are usually problematic for civilian populations. the, that's what to say, the other armed forces or no other arm,

notice the actors are not, not dangerous as well. but when mercenaries are involved in an arm conflicts, what we see is that the levels of violence against civilian population rises substantially, the prolong the conflict, and always seeing them with their involvement in libya. how do they, you know, they, they undermine the piece piece process and they think the stabilize whole whole regions showing congress coming that you would not, and sort of shaking your head. that is something you want to say. yeah, i would also say that history also shows that, you know, mercenaries can be deeply this honest, but so kind of our clients. i mean, that the pope's who hired mostly armies were instruments for not paying them. when i worked in africa, nobody wants to work well, this is what i get started. nobody want to work with the way and because of the didn't think they get paid. so it's not just math science ripping off their clients . it's also quite as much work bring up their mercenaries. but i agree with stark that there is a, there's a saying in africa that when the ellison,

despite the grad skips trampled and civilians are the grass and this is an element of private work fair. ah, that's, that's deeply problematic goals. okay, i'm gonna come back just to draw on like live, just a little bit more focus on russia and what's going on that before we move on to the much wider picture, i mean, a precaution promotion. now why does he stand right now? he's perhaps on his way to a bell, a ruse. does he have any leverage? does voc, the have any leverage now with must go. what is the state of play with those messen raise of his hobbies company? the store? i mean, there's just to say anything with certainty right now. i think we need to have a degree of humility as we try to kind of predict where precaution is sitting at the moment. we don't know if he's in ballard is at the moment. um, one of the things that i have been looking for is whether or not we would see any shake up within the ministry of defense when i figure such

a short little bit. awesome. uh, i think as far because it's main rivals within the russian government and essentially the figures that he was trying to house um and as far as i feel like we receive a metal so it seems like uh, it seems like he is not going anywhere. and so the question no remains whether or not uh, it goes in himself, is able to retain control over the group. um, i think, you know, at the end of the day, uh, regardless of a change in management. uh victor wagner, over the course of several years hes spelt significant infrastructure in africa and not only physical infrastructure, but something i think is even more important, which is actually just the contacts and, and networks and relationships. and so, like any c, e o comes into a new company, you can't fire 2000 people and expect to bring in 2000 who to get the thing running

again perfectly low. so costs pays really watching what's going on in the debt and analyzing what's going on from the sidelines to announce of those areas of conflict . it does really make you think about tackling the issue of medicine, rees, and how to i should say, not just legalize it. but control, if it can be, i mean, it seems the largest number of the best result, ex military personnel themselves, haven't found that place in society after they've left the forces and they are a gun for hire. so is it not a combination of trying to tackle the problem at souls, which is what do you do with x millet tray, your ex, military trained personnel looking for a korea after they've left the forces to yeah, i mean, i think certainly that so that's been the traditional profile, both of nurses and we have to be very specific about the language that we're using here. you mentioned you come back to me on the legality of yeah, of the situation. yeah. so what we have to understand is that marketing has

a specific international legal definition. it's a very difficult definition to, to, to meet. and it's essentially just, if i can summarize it is somebody who has been recruited specifically to participate in a non conflict. and that they did directly participate in the non conflict. that's when we get into the difficulties. different states take different views of a bolt. it means to directly participate. and in almost realty. so you will see some that will say, you mentioned some, some american companies earlier, for example. and you, you put them under the mercer a label. others would say, i don't, america us would say they're not in our series. the does not directly participate in the facilities the where and actually find time. so we have to be really careful about the, the language that we, that we use here. because there are specific um, there is a specific, regulate refrain. what that does. in fact, criminalize the recruitment of training, the financing, and,

and the use of our surveys. let's come back to your point, somebody who that, who marks to raise our working group is, is what this is about to finalize a report on recruitment practices. because while yes, the traditional profile of, of, of, of, of mercury is somebody who's a ex, ex military personnel retired military person who's been been trained and has come back to experience because that's fine. they're, they're used uninstalled testers as much as one of the problems that we've, we've seen in recent years, is a phenomenon called we called predatory recruitment. we're, we're seeing people who are be taking advantage of because they are the, comes the cold sweets affected countries. so for example, syria, we've seen this nonsense and unclear they are being in some cases quest or put under pressure to become mercer's or they're,

they're actually fraudulently recruited as, as the most recent promised nationality on large sums of money, which never materialized. we've also seen in the, in the, in, in the russian context, very recently, clear individuals were recruited from the prisons and to find for the group in, in ukraine. well, some of them did in fact volunteer to do not others, still others where we're pressurized or, or are put under the address to, to become, to become loves, to meet the. and so there's only a little of problem. there is, some people are just becoming victims, you know, some circumstance. i mean, they're all lazy. i need a new type lease of the soul to the out. it is very difficult to say the terminology, but for the sake of the time we have obviously we get, we're going to use must be a generic term. uh, so can i just come back to you because, um, so could, did mention syria. i mean, the real well the results from the us and rees law and with

a conflict and of the salaries couldn't be, you know, several fold mold, and you would get pass on the, on the domestic market. the way that the best summaries, if we just use that term for now, all used is different in the different context. if we look at syria, for example, we know that message we use, we use, you might say to get rid of iso and to protect the oil reserves. and in doing so, the message reads to have a loyalty to assess in state or a country, find the companies from that state or country actually get contracts. there is a, a subliminal a game here, isn't that? yeah, it says it couldn't pro quote, i mean, i think looking at fix the looking at the extract of industry and mercenary development, there's a twin story to be seen here. not all attractive industry of course, but um, i mean for goes in its own model is, you know, he is in molly. he is in syria,

he's doing mine. so what happens is he goes to a government like molly, those say, well i can prove, prove to you. i have the wagner group, and i also have the internet research. i can see the trolls factor, which he also owns to do just information cyber. and in exchange i want to, you know, mine for gold or oil or you know, or whatnot. and we've seen this model work for him across syria and across africa. and if you wanted to keep, that may be moving. but as a, as one of my colleagues just said we'd, it's really hard to get inside the minds of me and, and provision. but yes, there is something to be said about, you know, welf money and fire power. yeah, the quick, pretty close. that is interesting because john can i come to your washington dc, isn't sometimes even simpler than baptism to it. for example, in nigeria, under the radar deal forward to use that. so we believe also brought in mess and raise to try and push out both overall. i mean,

what was your understanding of what was going on by as well and just to go back to one thing that mister mcveigh similar to i think is interesting is that it is a model uh the, the, the kind of exchange of security provision for concession rights and natural resources. but even though that's also not a, uh, uh, a model that you need to wagner in the office for advocacy governments. uh, the that there's a correlation but not necessarily causation. that in places where there are natural resources. there, there are conflicts and governments of those countries tend to be cash strapped. they don't have a lot of cash on hand. and so for them, the easier thing to do as well to take advantage is to give away concessions that they don't necessarily control. and they don't have to give away any, any cash out of pocket. and so these deals also do work through the interest of the

african government. so we're looking for security prevention as to the next area. i think, you know, one of the things that we forget about wagner is that it's just, it's very standard for a gmc to be operating in africa. that is where the demand is for private military company in wagner is no exception. and so i think we sometimes, but the cart before the horse, when we're surprised that they get their feet and clients and places where there's concept because a peaceful countries are not very good business for pmc. uh and uh, more over how sourcing is. i think this or before you can explain me, it is on experience to contractors in africa is pretty standard because unfortunately, africa for, for a lot of the major countries such as the us and russia is not a major priority. and so they don't want to put their own troops on the ground and would prefer to outsource the contractors if they can. okay,

that's the harsh reality of you might say what's going on on the ground. so kind of just coming hey with you, because obviously you know, of the un is, is what, see what's going on. the e u has also made the statement. what last september i'm just gonna bring in what they said to the human rights commission in geneva as hate charles the 51 on the 28th of september. however, the roles and actions of medicine, res, categories, specifically defined and international law, should not be confused with the activities of private, military and private security companies. the use of which is lawful in certain circumstances. they go on to say the report recommends that states adult legislation and regulates in the activities of private military and security companies. and so we've, we've just touched on the early part of our conversation. let's do a little bit too much, but it is fault with problems, isn't that even if it is approved by different member states? it in different ways. yeah, absolutely, and i think you're quoting from the, from my presentation to the human rights kind of so, less,

less september. yeah. and that was, that was a report on, on the problems of because we are you and we're continuing to work for the us. we are independent human rights experts as a we, we, we purchased by a much, much human rights perspective. and so the report that we presented last year was a, by the lack of accountability and access to justice for the, for, for victims full of mercenaries. and indeed, private military and security companies. but at the moment there's a, there's a regulatory gap. so as i mentioned earlier, we do have a very clear framework that criminalizes the recruitment, the training they use um, the financing whole mercenaries within a very specific definition. but then we have these other actors which are not legally defined to private military companies, private abilities, security companies, private security providers. there is a soft, low framework for them. but there isn't an internationally an international binding instrument. and the international community has been meeting over many,

many years that be part of that process. and they have been unable to reach an agreement on whether there should in fact be of binding instruments to address that, particularly the human rights of the elements of the problems associated with these kinds of factors. because it actually doesn't, in a way, it doesn't matter what you, what you call these factors. if you commit human rights violations, you commit human rights violations. if you commit war crimes or crimes against humanity, which is what we've been seeing was the, the, the wagon a group in car, in, in molly, it doesn't matter actually, doesn't matter. they can, the individuals can still be held criminally responsible under international law for those, for those crimes, as of the way problem. it. yeah, because it actually wouldn't happen as, as of when they happened. i just want to jump in because i just want to be the on site they because they're all scenarios that are being discussed internationally about wessa. again, madison reese

o palmed groups can actually age governments a in, in certain scenarios. let's just go to pockets done, for example. sure. just want to get your opinion on something. we've seen over the as the polio vaccination scheme that's being tried and tested in the northwest of the countries that has often come under attack by individuals who don't trust it. the state itself cannot seem to protect health workers as one example. this is what n g o is a saying, all road and groups could possibly protect the health work is to of that to do a civic service. this is the grey a recent take care of what is a medicine rate on what isn't and how they all paid. so that's right. so i think that it's a model calculus issue and, and you can almost see in the future, i mean what we see, what we saw with wagner over the weekend. this is not the end of it. and also mercenary is or arm groups center, call them,

they're like fire. they can either burn down your house, but they get power. you mentioned. so you can imagine how maybe even in the future in n g o might hire a mercenary group to intervene and stop. i say i sold 2.0. so a lot of good and a lot of bad can come out of most very good sponsors. sure. bad, okay, so let me bring, give it a, a different types of medicine. me, those protecting oil tankers and shipping in, in places like the straits of malacca in asia pacific at the gulf of guinea, west africa, or even in the gulf of age. and in the middle east, some of those we've seen oil tankers hijacked before, but now we're seeing a scenario where there are and then to be brought in by companies to protect those sorts of vessels. there is a, a justifiable reason sometimes to have such most resembled in those locations and on those vessels. yeah, i mean i, i think as, as,

as sean was saying it's, it's a very complicated issue. and multi mentally comes down to a the ones ok. gone on the morality and into finding what is the greater good, everybody's able to frame uh their, their specific interest as some sort of exception and necessary exception to the rule that should apply to others. but i think it, interestingly enough, i've wagner group developed added a lot of the private security event that was occurring in shipping lines, especially during the smaller virus prices. and i think whether we like it or not, there's a, there's going to be a demand for that. and that's one thing that i don't think we've addressed is, is the, the demand side, and not the necessarily the supply side. i mean, ultimately, mercenaries are a product of complex that they're symptom of illness. they're not the illness that good stuff. and wagner group, i think his. com a valid as wow, at

a particularly interesting time, we're seeing okay. sort of as a central crisis and peacekeeping, specifically in africa. fair. i citizens, i've seen that gets a deal in peacekeeping missions that, that have failed to protect civilians. and then a lot of cases of intervention. after you went to interventions, the situation has become worse. okay. and so basically what is the demand for, for military solutions if the, if there is about to and then come back to silicon very quickly because obviously, you know, you, we talked to somebody with a little while ago about the sort of legality of such groups. and in some countries that are allowed in some countries, they all the us, for example, as the largest number of security companies that seem to work internationally from our research. and even within the constitution, i'm to ask one, section 8, individuals or groups are allowed to authorize the hire of privateers, as they call it. and of course, constitution didn't get a couple 100 years ago. but while you look at the,

you and your on your appeal to the was to try and regulate the issue of medicine, res shouldn't not be also pushed tools north america as well from the human working goods perspective in our culture, regulation is, is truly international. it's not, we don't, we're not thinking on any one particular country we, we think the international community should be regulating, and they, they, they use all mercenaries, the use of private military and security contractors and regulating the services that they, they provide and that they should be the because, and here we go, there, they're not going to disappear. this is, this is the unfortunate reality when it comes to the sorts of actors that are perhaps not, not providing combat services. we have, we're not going to disappear. but, but as i said, there is international regulation, the, the, the prohibits the use of mercenaries in arms conflicts. but when it comes to the

other sorts of activities and the other sorts of services that they're providing, we do see regularly 3 gaps and that's usually problematic. of all things, no matter where they are in the world, should be addressing this as a matter of urgency. and that certainly we have to leave the conversation that we've had. but i really would like to thank all of my guests that show me the fates . so can mccloud and john black. the thanks so much for joining us on this edition of inside story. and thank you for watching, as well as you can see the program again, any time by visiting our website that i'll just have adults come on for further discussion casual facebook page on facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle that is out, hey, j inside story for me. so rahman, i'm the entire team here. thanks very much for your time. and your company, the the,

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a jersey to the latest news as it breaks the lives here over the years have had to grow used to repeats itself through a tax to they say they've never before seen anything quite on this scale with detail coverage. how was this allowed to happen? who's responsible and should safety standards be changed from around the world? ukrainian soldiers in this area said that they were going to try and exploit and push hard to hold off loaded with wagner, played such a fundamental role. the, [000:00:00;00] the hello, i'm several then. yeah, it's great to have you with us. this is the news, our life from the coming up in the program today. the wagner chief lands and bell