the full scene and the things quite on this scale with detailed coverage. how was this allowed to happen? who's responsible and should safety standards be changed from around the world? ukrainian soldiers in this area said that they were going to try and exploit and push hard to hold off, loaded with wagner, played such a fundamental role. the rest of the covers from once it cools foggins, verbally and as a new surface on private tommies. they used in many conflicts around the world, but how much of a press all they so the global older, and tell me that the sculpt. this is inside story, the how it welcome to the going to hell robin. the mutiny by rushes involved the must be pretty push all the lights on the shot. we will,

the private tommies. they offer it in complex settings around the world. the services have been employed by governments, son to piracy operations, and even by some engineers. but what's other risks of the soldiers for hire and how much of a threats all of a to the international order and international peace, and what role will they play in the future? we'll put those questions on more to our guests in just a few moments. the 1st this report from alex, but the wagner moose, and regroup once in lock step with russian president vladimir, who's in n o, an existing, she'll threat to shoot you an option that will we will protect our people in our statehood from any threats including internal be trail and what we're facing is betrayal. exorbitant ambitions and personal interest led to treason. tens of thousands of fights is loyal not to the kremlin, but to give guinea precaution, he's growing his private military force into a global power. active, not just in ukraine bus across africa. wagner has worked with governments and

miller trees and the central african republic, libya molly and threw down fighting rebel groups for goshen. has also reported military and political influence in chad, mozambique, and some bob way of the sheer scale of wagner is operations has exposed the risks of private armies. and vodka is just one of many recent years. have seen major masonry activity in human nigeria, ukraine, syria, and a rock among other places. these beings advice about what lows govern private armies and if they can be held to account when they find his commit crimes, no one knows how much the industry is worth. bus businesses booming. one of the most advanced and best known masonry groups of the american academy formerly known as blackwater. it tied a substantial role in both a rock and as dennis down. so the us government, while you k based a g 4 race contract is at one time, was responsible for providing mealy

a food of old non military convoys and a rock. today the group is present in more than $125.00 countries. companies like these are operating on nearly every continents and provide tens of thousands of highly trained sizes for hire. but it's not only governments who are paying for the services. multinational corporations are the biggest new clients. they're using most and rates to protect their investments. especially mining sites and shipping routes, even in g o z, including safe the children and will vision have turns to guns for hire, to protect the operations and dangerous regions. and with conflict on the rise world wide, it looks likely that private military companies. he had to stay at like, speed and side story or the let's bring it all guess way in honolulu, hawaii show my face a full, the military contract to and all of the multiple mastery and copenhagen. so can the

cloud, a member of the u. n. working group on the use of medicine raised and a washington dc and john left a fox and a group expert with focused on conflict in africa will welcome to all of our guests on the inside story. lot of the basis to, to hate on this particular program that's just begin with the fact shown. if i can come to you 1st, the whole lou, we start seem to show that most res, uh can be more dangerous and more lethal militarily and politically. the one might imagine a bit of a wake up coal really isn't. it will lead as it is. i'm gonna certainly shows the risks of relying on private for us to do your bidding, especially a mass like the wagner group. but we can't forget that mercer is of the 2nd oldest profession. they're very hard to control. they can be very fickle. what we saw over the past weekend is this is not new in history. so i think the problem also is,

is that world leaders up to this point have generally seen mercenaries as cheap hollywood billings. and that's not true. they're very dangerous. john left the can i get your opinion on this? because as showing just mentioned historically, i mean we can go back to william the conqueror on the 11th century, you know, using hired soldiers to come back to and make conquests of england. really a and stop. you might say the british moment k as a whole list here as well from, from syria to 8 to lead to even the pope using mess and res. what's your general opinion of what we've seen over the last sort of 48000 is a continuing story, isn't that it's about what's going on in the right side outside of russia? yeah, i mean, 1st i would agree with the sean mac faith. that is the use of mercenaries and their role in conflict. there's nothing new. and really it's only been in the past 200

years or so that we seen the development of national standing armies. and i think as mr. mac fitness pointing out in his own book, the world is beginning to revert and change again to the product ization of security and warfare. um, i think specifically what it means for governance, especially within russia at the moment is uh yes, but mercenary groups are in uh, both can both work for the state but are driven by and by profit. and they can be an incredibly useful tool, but a dangerous to the same time if they're not satisfied with a particular outcome. so we'll talk about the sort of legality of what's going on globally in a moment. but in terms of investment, this difficult business isn't it? rarely pay the right pipe price. you buy the right man in guns, yours, but it will come back to bite you in the posterior. if you haven't paid enough, and this is what seems to be developing goal has been a historical scenario for quite some time. well, i think what we're,

what we've seen that the, the weekend is the, the consequences or the under regulating sheets, privatization of the, the, the use of for sun and, you know, my kim valley, we wrote many centuries ago that the mercenaries are dangerous. they're, they're unreliable. you kind of, you kind of trust them and i think that's, that's very much for where you know, what we've, what we've seen here, but be over and above that the are usually problematic for civilian populations. they deal with that. so i'll just say the other armed forces or no other arm, notice the actors are not, not dangerous as well. but when mercenaries are involved in an arm conflicts, what we see is that the levels of violence against civilian populations rises substantially. the prolong the conflict can always see what their involvement in libya, how they, you know, they, they undermine the piece piece process and they,

they do stabilize whole whole regions. showing congress coming that you would not. and sort of shaking your head. that is something you want to say. yeah, i would also say that history also shows that, you know, mercenary can be deeply this honest. but so kind of our clients, i mean that the folks who hired and mercenary armies were instruments when i came them. when i worked in africa, nobody wanted to work well. this is probably gonna start gonna, nobody want to work with us because of we didn't think they get paid. so it's not just math science ripping off their clients. it's also quite as much we're going off and mercenaries, but i agree as far as there is a, there's a saying in africa that when the ellison, despite the grad scripts, trampled and civilians are they brass and this is an element of private work fair. ah, that's, that's deeply problematic goals. okay, i'm gonna come back just to draw on like live, just a little bit more focus on russia and what's going on that before we move on to the much, why the picture, i mean

a precaution promotion. now why does he stand right now? he's perhaps on his way to a bella ruse. does he have any leverage? does voc that have any leverage now with moscow? what is the state of play with those messen raise of his toby's company? or, i mean there's just to say anything with certainty right now. i think we need to have a degree of humility as we try to kind of predict where precautions are sitting at the moment. we don't know if he's in valor is at the moment. um, one of the things that i've been looking for is whether or not we would see any shake up within the ministry of defense where figure such a short little bit. awesome. uh uh, as these are because it's main rivals within the russian government. and essentially the figures that he was trying to house um and as far as i saw it, we receive a metal. so it seems like, uh, it seems like he is not going anywhere. and so to the question, you know,

remains whether or not a big ocean himself is able to retain control over the group. um, i think, you know, at the end of the day uh, regardless of a changing management. uh victor wagner, over the course of several years, hes thought significant infrastructure in africa and not only physical infrastructure, but something i think is even more important, which is actually just the contacts and, and networks and relationships. and so, like any c, e o comes into a new company, you can't fire 2000 people and expect to bring in 2000 who to get the thing running again perfectly low. so costs pays really watching what's going on in the debt and analyzing what's going on from the sidelines to announce of those areas of conflict . it does really make you think about tackling the issue of medicine, rees, and how to i should say, and not just legalize it, but control if it can be. i mean, it seems the largest number of must result ex,

military personnel themselves. haven't found that place in society after they've left the forces and they are a gun for hire. so is it not a combination of trying to tackle the problem at souls, which is what do you do with x millet tray, your ex, military trained personnel looking for a korea after they've left the forces to? yeah, i mean, i think certainly that says the traditional profile, oldest of nurses and we have to be very specific about the language that we're using here. you mentioned you come back to me on the legality of yeah, of the situation. yeah. so what we have to understand is that marketing has a specific international legal definition. it's a very difficult definition to, to, to meet. and it's essentially just, if i can summarize it is somebody who has been recruited specifically to participate in a non conflict. and that they did directly participate in the non conflict. that's when we get into the difficulties. different states take different views about what

it means to directly participate. and in almost realty. so you will see some that will say, you mentioned some, some american companies earlier, for example. and you, you put them under the mercer a label. others would say, i don't, america us would say they're not in our series. the does not directly participate in the facilities, they weren't actually pointing. so it could be really careful about the, the language that we, that we use here. because there are specific um, there is a specific regulatory framework that doesn't facts. criminalize the recruitment of training, the financing, and, and the use of more surveys. let's come back to your point, somebody who that, who marks to raise our working group is, is what this is about to finalize a report on the recruitment practices. because while yes, the traditional profile of, of, of, of, of nursery is somebody who's a ex,

ex military personnel retired military person who's been been trained and has come back to experience because that's fine. they're, they're used uninstalled testers as much is one of the problems that we've, we've seen in recent years, is a phenomenon called we called present sri recruitment. we're, we're seeing people who are be taking advantage of because they are the, comes of a culturally defected country. so for example, syria, we've seen this nonsense, i'm unclear, they are being in some cases quest or i put under pressure to become mercer's or the actually fraudulently decreases as, as most recent promised nationality or large sums of money, which never materialize. we've also seen in the, in the, in, in the restroom context, very recently clear individuals were recruited from the presence to find

for the group in and ukraine's about some of them did in fact volunteer to do not others. still others where we're pressurized or, or are put under the address to, to become, to become lapse of these, the, and so there's only a liter of problem. there. people are. so just becoming victims, you know, some circumstance. i mean, they're all layers and you need a new type lease of the soul to the out. it is very difficult to say the terminology, but for the sake of the time we have obviously we get, we're going to use my services as generic to show can i just come back to you because, um, so could i have mentioned syria, i mean, the real well, the rewards from us and rees law and with a conflict, you know, the salaries can be, you know, several full mold and you would get pass on the, on the domestic market. the way that the best summaries, if we just use that term for now, all used is different in the different context. if we look at syria, for example,

we know that message we will use, you might say to get rid of iso and to protect the oil reserves. and in doing so, the most reason i have a loyalty to assess in state or a country find the companies from that state or country actually get contracts. there is a, a subliminal aim here, isn't that? yeah. says it couldn't truck? well, i mean, i think looking at the speed, looking at the extract of industry and mercenary development, there's a twin story to be seen here. not all attractive industry of course, but um, i mean for goes in his own model is, you know, he is in molly. he is in syria, he's doing mine. so what happens is he goes to a government like molly. so say, well i can prove, prove to you, i have the wagner group and i also have the internet research. i can see the trolls factor, which he also owns to do just information cyber. and in exchange i want to,

you know, mind for gold or oil or you know, or whatnot. and we've seen this model work for him across syria and across africa. and if you wanted to keep, that may be moving. but as a, as one of my colleagues just said we'd, it's really hard to get inside the minds of me and, and provision. but yes, there is something to be said about, you know, welf money and fire power. yeah, the quick, pretty close. think is interesting because john, can i come to your washington dc, isn't sometimes even simpler than baptism to it. for example, in nigeria, under the radar deal forward to use that. so we believe also brought in mess and raise to try and push out boca rom. i mean, what was your understanding of what was going on by as well and just to go back to one thing that mister mcveigh said, which i think is interesting is that um it is a model uh the the, the kind of exchange that security provision for concession rights and natural

resources, but even that, that's also not a, uh, uh, a model that you need. wagner and, uh for african governments. uh, the, there's a correlation but not necessarily causation. that in places where there are natural resources. there, there are conflicts and governments of those countries tend to be cash strapped. they don't have a lot of cash on hand. and so for them, the easier thing to do as well to take advantage is to give away concessions that they don't necessarily control. and they don't have to give away any, any cash out of pocket. and so these deals also do work for the interest of the african government. so we're looking for secure information as to uh, next area. i think, you know, one of the things that we forget about wagner is that it's just, it's very standard for a gmc to be operating in africa. and that is where the demand is for private

military company involved. there is no exception. and so i think we sometimes, but the carpet for the horse, women were surprised that they get there. so you can clients that in places where there's concept because uh people, countries are not very good business for pnc. uh, and uh, more over how sourcing is. i think this or if they can explain that is our experience to contractors in africa is pretty standard because unfortunately, africa for a lot of the major countries such as the us and russia, is not a major priority. and so they don't want to put their own troops on the ground and would prefer to outsource the contractors that they can. okay? that, that's the harsh reality of you might say what's going on on the ground. so kind of just coming hey with you, because obviously, you know, it's a, the u. n is, is watching what's going on. the e u has also made the state but what last september i'm just going to bring in what they said to the human rights commission. in geneva as hate charles c, 51 on the 28th of september. however, the roles and actions of medicine rees,

a categories, specifically defined and international law, should not be confused with the activities of private, military and private security companies. the use of which is lawful in certain circumstances that go on to say the report recommends that states adult legislation and regulating the activities of private military and security companies. and so we've, we've just touched on the early part of our conversation. let's do a little bit too much, but it is fault with problems, isn't it? even if it is approved by different member states, it in different ways. yeah, absolutely, and i think you're quoting from uh, from my presentation to the human rights kind of so less less than 10 bucks. yeah, i never know if that was a report on, on the problems of um, because we are you and working with you. we do work for the us. we are independent human rights experts. and so we, we, we purchased by much, much human rights prospective. and so the report that we presented last year was a, by the lack of accountability and access to justice for, for, for victims,

full of mercenaries, and indeed private military and security companies. but at the moment there's a, there's a, regulates re gap. so as i mentioned earlier, we do have a very clear framework that criminalizes the recruitment, the training they use um, the financing whole mercenaries within a very specific definition. but then we have these other actors which are not legally defined to private military companies, private military security companies, private security providers. there is a soft, low framework for them, but there isn't an internationally an instructional binding instrument. and the international community has been meeting over many, many years, that'd be part of that process. and they have been unable to reach an agreement on whether there should in fact be a binding instruments to address that, particularly the human rights. the elements of the problems associated with these

kinds of factors because it actually doesn't in a way, it doesn't matter what you, what you call these factors. if you commit human rights violations, you commit human rights violations. if you commit war crimes or crimes against humanity, which is what we've been seeing was the, the, the wagon a group in car, in, in molly, it doesn't matter actually doesn't matter. they can, the individuals can still be held criminally responsible under international law for those for those crimes. so the white problem is, yeah, because it actually wouldn't happen as, as of when they happened. i just want to jump in because i just want to be the on site they because they're all scenarios that all being discussed internationally about west. again madison, reese o groups can actually a government a in, in certain scenarios. let's just go to pockets done, for example. sure. just want to get your opinion on something. we've seen over the as the polio vaccination scheme that's being tried and tested in the north west of the country. so it has often come under attack by individuals who don't trust it.

the state itself can't seem to protect health workers as one example. this is what n g o is a saying, all road and groups could possibly protect the health work is to of that to do a civic service. this is the gray area recently. so of what is a medicine rate on what isn't and how they all paid? that's right. so i think that it's a moral calculus issue and then you can almost see in the future, i mean what we see, what we saw was wagner over the weekend. this is not the end of it, and also mercenary is or arm groups center, call them. they're like fire. they can either burn down your house, but they get power. you mentioned. so you can imagine how maybe even in the future in n g o might hire a mercenary group to intervene and stop. i say i sold 2.0. so a lot of good and a lot of bad can come out of most very good scratches. sure. bad,

okay, so let me bring, give it a, a different types of medicine. me, those protecting oil tankers and shipping in, in places like the straits of malacca in asia pacific at the gulf of guinea, west africa, or even in the gulf of age. and in the middle east, some of those we've seen oil time because hijacked before, but now we're seeing a scenario where there are and then to be brought in by companies to protect those sorts of vessels. there is a, a justifiable reason sometimes to have such a mess and resembled in those locations and on those vessels. yeah, i mean i, i think as, as, as sean was saying it's, it's a very complicated issue. and ultimately it comes down to a and the ones ok gone on the morality and in defining what is the greater good, everybody's able to frame uh their, their specific interest as some sort of exception and necessary exception to the

rule that should apply to others. and i think it, interestingly enough, i've wagner group developed added a lot of the private security that, that was occurring in shipping lines, especially during the small virus it prices. and i think whether we like it or not, there's a, there's going to be a demand for that. and that's one thing that i don't think we've addressed is, is the, the demand side, and not the, necessarily, the supply. so i mean, ultimately, mercenaries our product of complex. uh they are symptom of to illness or not the illness that good stuff. um and uh, the doctor group i think is com a valid as well at a particularly interesting time, or if anything sort of as a central crisis and peacekeeping. specifically in africa, fair, i citizens got seen decades with human peacekeeping missions that they had failed to protect civilians. and then a lot of cases of intervention. after you went to interventions,

the situation has become worse. okay. and so basically what is the demand for, for military solutions if the, if there is but the one that it's about to soak a very quickly because obviously, you know, you, we talked to somebody with a little while ago about the sort of legality of such groups. and some countries that are allowed in some countries, they all do us, for example, as the largest number of security companies that seem to work internationally from our research. and even within the constitution of the article one, section 8, individuals or groups are allowed to authorize the hire of privateers, as they call it. and of course, constitution didn't get a couple 100 years ago. but while you look at the, you and your on your appeal to the was to try and regulate the issue of medicine, res shouldn't not be also pushed tools north america as well from the human working groups perspective in our culture. regulation is, is truly international. it's not, we don't, we're not thinking on any one particular country we,

we think the international community should be regulating. and they, they, they use over some nice to use of private military and security contractors and regulating the services that they, they provide. and that they should be the, because any, we get there, they're not going to disappear. this is, this is the unfortunate reality when it comes to the sorts of actors that are perhaps not, not providing combat services. we have, you know, they're not going to disappear but, but as i said, there is international regulation. the, the, the prohibits the use of mercenaries in arms conflicts, but when it comes to the other sorts of activities, the other sorts of services that they're providing. we do see regularly 3 gaps and that's usually problematic. an allstate, no matter where they are in the world, should be addressing this is i'm not sure. virtuous. think of that. certainly we have to leave the conversation that we've had. but i really would like to thank all of my guests that show that fate soak mccloud and john black. the thanks so much

for joining us on this edition of inside story. and thank you for watching, as well as you can see the program again, any time by visiting our website that i'll just have adults come on for further discussion k 12 facebook page on facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle that is out. hey jake inside store for me. so rahman, i'm the entire team here. thanks very much for your time. and your company, the the dreaming of somebody more amazingly silly. about some disney magic. the

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the level of destruction here, proof of just how fits the fighting has been in recent weeks this russian or don't some on a street has been a place of pilgrimage for centuries. the new change you have any progression begins. he's exile in bella roost under a deal that ended his brief meeting in russia. the hello one, emily, angling this is l g 0. live from jo. house are coming up, rushing as dry caesar restaurants in the eastern, declining city of kind of tours. chilling at least.