dream does assert and democratic society. we dream different revolution. the 1st of a 3 part series out as a well exclusive regional events, people and forces to check the deck in. our dreams were many. we start to with great dreams, which ended up with sense. the 2nd time, the sixty's in the, our politics analogies era as well show recovers from was it called foggins verbally and as a new focus on private tommy's. so used in many conflicts around the world. but how much of a press all the to the global older on ton that the sculpt. this is inside story, the how it welcome to the the going to hell robin. the mutiny by rushes involved the most and make really push on the lights on the shot. we will,

the private tommies. they operate in complex settings around the world. best services have been employed by governments onto piracy operations and even by some engineers. but what's other risks of the soldiers for hire and how much of a threats all of a to the international order and international peace, and what role will they play in the future? we'll put those questions on more to our guests in just a few moments. the 1st this report from alex, but the wagner moose, and regroup once in lock step with russian president vladimir, who's in n o, an existing, she'll threat to shoot you an option that will we will protect our people in our statehood from any threats including internal be trail and what we're facing is betrayal. exorbitant ambitions and personal interest led to treason, a tens of thousands of slices loyal not to the kremlin, but to you have any promotion. he's growing his private military force and to a global power active, not just in ukraine,

both across africa. wagner has worked for governments and miller trees and the central african republic, libya molly and sue don fighting rebel groups for goshen has also reported military and political influence in chad, mozambique, and some bob way she, a scale of wagner is operations has exposed the risks of private armies and vodka is just one of many recent years, have seen major masonry activity in human nigeria, ukraine, syria, and a rock among other places. these painted dikes about what the lowest govern private armies, and if they can be held to account when they find his commits crimes, no one knows how much the industry is worth. bus businesses booming. one of the most advanced and best known masonry groups of the american academy, formerly known as black horses, it tied a substantial role in both iraq and afghanistan. so the us government or, well you tell you based a g 4 race contract is at one time was responsible for providing mealy

a food of old non military convoys in iraq. today the group is present and move in 125 countries. companies like these are operating on nearly every continents and provide teams of thousands of highly trained prices for hire. but it's not only governments who are paying for the services. multinational corporations are the biggest new clients. they're using moves and rates to protect their investments. especially mining sites and shipping routes, even in g o's including safe the children and will vision have turns to guns for hire, to protect the operations and dangerous regions. and with conflict on the rise world wide, it looks likely that private military companies. i hate to stay at like, speed and side story the let's bring it all guess way in honolulu, hawaii show my face a full and military contract doing all of the multiple mastery in copenhagen. so

can the cloud them in the all of the you and working group on the use of medicine, race and the washington dc and don't less the a falkland group x. but with focus on conflict in africa will welcome to all of our guests on inside story, a lot of the basis to, to hit on this particular program that's just begin with the fact shown. if i can come to you 1st and hopefully we can do, it seemed to show that the best reason can be more dangerous and more lethal militarily and politically. the one might imagine a bit of a wake of coal release that 12 lead is, as it is. i mean, it certainly shows the risks of relying on private for us to do your bidding, especially a mass like the wagner group. but we can't forget that mercer is of the 2nd oldest profession. they are very hard to control. they can be very fickle. what we saw over the past weekend is this is not new in history. so i think the problem also is,

is that role leaders up to this point have generally seen mercenaries as cheap hollywood billings. and that's not true. they're very dangerous. john left the can i get your opinion on this? because as shown just mentioned historically, i mean we can go back to william the conqueror of the 11th century, you know, using high and sold to come back to and make conquests of england. really a and stop. you might say the british moment k as a whole list here as well from, from syria to 8 to lead to even the pope using mess and res. what's your general opinion of what we've seen over the last sort of 48000 is a continuing story, isn't to it's about what's going on. even though i say outside of russia. yeah, i mean 1st i would agree with god sean, make faith. that is the use of mercenaries and their role in conflict. there's nothing new. and really it's only been in the past 200 years or so that we seen the

development of national standing armies. and i think, as mr. mac fitness pointed out in his own, but in the beginning to revert and change again to the product ization of security and warfare. i think specifically what it means for governance, especially within russia at the moment, is uh yes, but mercenary groups are in of, can both work for the state, but are driven by and by profit. and they can be an incredibly useful tool, but a dangerous to the same time if they're not satisfied with a particular outcome. so we'll talk about the sort of legality of what's going on globally in a moment. but in terms of investments, this difficult business isn't it rarely pay the right pipe price. you buy the right man in guns that yours, but it will come back to bite you in the posterior. if you haven't paid enough, and this is what seems to be developing goal has been

a historical scenario for quite some time. well, i think what we've seen that the weekend is the, the consequences or the on regulate seats, privatization of the, the, the use of for sun and, you know, my kim valley, we wrote many centuries ago that the mercenaries are dangerous. they're, they're unreliable. you kind of, you kind of trust them and i think that's, that's very much for where, you know, what we've, what we've seen here, but be over and above that the are usually problematic for civilian populations the that so i'll just say the other armed forces or no other arm, notice the actors are not, not dangerous as well. but when mercenaries are involved in an arm conflicts, what we see is that the levels of violence against civilian population rises substantially. the prolong the conflict can always see what their involvement in libya, how they, you know, they, they undermine the piece piece process and they,

they, the stabilize whole whole regions showing congress coming that you would not. and sort of shaking your head. that is something you want to say. yeah, i would also say that history also shows that, you know, mercenaries can be dishonest, but so kind of our clients. i mean, that the pope's who hired and mercenary armies were instruments for not paying them . when i worked in africa, nobody wanted to work well. this is probably gonna start gonna, nobody want to work with us because of the intake they get paid. so it's not just most things ripping off their clients. it's also why it's much going off and mercenaries, but i agree as far as there is a, there's a saying in africa that when the ellison, despite, the graphs gets trampled and civilians are they brass and this is an element of private work fair. ah, that's, that's deeply problematic goals. okay, i'm gonna come back just to draw on like live, just a little bit more focus on russia and what's going on that before we move on to the much, why the picture, i mean

a precaution promotion. now why does he stand right now? he's perhaps on his way to a fellow ruse. does he have any leverage? does voc that have any leverage now with must go. what is the state of play with those messen raise of his toby's company? for i mean, there's just to say anything with certainty right now, i think we need to have a degree of humility as we try to kind of predict where precaution is sitting at the moment. we don't know if he's in valor is at the moment. um, one of the things that i have been looking for is whether or not we would see any shakeup. uh, within the ministry of defense. uh, where uh figure such a short little bit awesome. uh, uh, as a, as far precautions main rivals uh, within the russian government and essentially the figures that he was trying to house um and as far as i saw, i do receive a metal. so it seems like, uh, it seems like he is not going anywhere. and so to the question, you know,

remains whether or not uh, it goes in himself is able to retain control over the group. um, i think, you know, at the end of the day, uh, regardless of a change in management. uh they, they're wagner over the course of several years as adults, significant infrastructure in africa. and not only physical infrastructure, but something i think is even more important, which is actually just the contacts and, and networks and relationships. and so like any c, e o comes into a new company. you can't fire 2000 people and expect to bring in 2000 who to get the thing running again perfectly low. so costs pays really watching what's going on in the debt and analyzing what's going on from the sidelines. that announcer, those areas of conflict. it does really make you think about tackling the issue of medicine, rees, and how to i should say, and not just legalize it, but control if it can be. i mean, it seems the largest number of must result ex,

military personnel themselves. haven't found that place in society after they've left the forces and they are a gun for hire. so is it not a combination of trying to tackle the problem at souls, which is what do you do with x millet tray, your ex, military trained personnel looking for a korea after they've left the forces to yeah, i mean, i think certainly that so that's been the traditional profile, oldest of nurses, and we have to be very specific about the language that we're using here. you mentioned you come back to me on the legality of yeah, of the situation. yeah. so what we have to understand is that marketing has a specific international legal definition. it's a very difficult definition to to, to meet on is essentially just if i can summarize it is somebody who has been recruited specifically to participate in a non conflict. and that they did directly participate in the non conflict. that's when we get into the difficulties. different states take different views of the

quotes, it means to directly participate and it was still empty. so you will see some that will say, you mentioned some, some american companies earlier, for example. and you, you put them under the mercer a label. others would say, i don't, america, us would say they're not in our series because not directly participate in the facilities. they were not actually function. so it could be really careful about the, the language that we, that we use here. because there are specific um, there is a specific regulatory framework that doesn't facts. criminalize the recruitment of training, the financing, and, and the use of mar surveys. let's come back to your point, somebody who that, who march to raise our working group is, is what this is about to finalize a report on recruitment practices. because quote yes, the traditional profile of, of, of, of, of mercury is somebody who's a, ex,

ex military personnel retired military person who's been been trained and has come back to experience because that's fine. they're, they're used uninstalled testers as much is one of the problems that we've, we've seen in recent years, is a phenomenon called we called present sri recruitment. we're, we're seeing people who are be taking advantage of because they are the, comes of a, a conflict affected country. so for example, syria, we've seen this nonsense, i'm unclear. they are being, in some cases quest or i put under pressure to become mercer's or the actually fraudulently decreases as, as most recent promised nationality or large sums of money, which never materialize. we've all seen in the, in the, in, in the russian context very recently. clear individuals were recruited from the presence and to find for the group in and ukraine's that, well,

some of them did in fact volunteer to do the others. still others where we're pressurized or, or are put under the address to, to become, to become most of these the and so there's only a little of problem there. people are. so just becoming victims, you know, some circumstance. i mean, they're all layers and you need a new type lease of the soul to the out. it is very difficult to say the terminology, but for the sake of the time we have obviously we get, we're going to use my services as generic to so i just come back to you because um, so could, did mention syria. i mean, the real well the results from the us and rees law and with a conflict. you know, the salaries can be, you know, several full mold and you would get passed on the, on the domestic market. the way that best summaries, if we just use that term for now, all used is different in the different context. if we look at syria, for example,

we know that message we will use, you might say to get rid of iso and to protect the oil reserves. and in doing so, the most reason have a loyalty to assess in state or a country, find the companies from that state or country actually get contracts. there is a, a subliminal aim here, isn't that? yeah, so it's a quick truck. well, i mean, i think looking at the speed, looking at the extract of industry and mercenary development, there's a twin story to be seen here. not all attractive industry of course, but um, i mean for goes in its own model is, you know, he is in molly. he is in syria, he's doing mine. so what happens is he goes to a government like molly. so say, look, i can prove, prove you, i have the wagner group and i also have the internet research. i can see the trolls factor, which he also owns to do just information cyber. and in exchange i want to,

you know, mind for gold or oil or you know, or whatnot. and we've seen this model work for him across syria and across africa. and if you wanted to, you could keep, that may be moving. but as a, as one of my colleagues just said we'd, it's really hard to get inside the mind to me and, and provision. but yes, there is something to be said about, you know, welf money and fire power. yeah, the quick, pretty close. that is interesting because john can i come to your washington dc, isn't sometimes even simpler than baptism to it. for example, in nigeria, under the radar deal forward to use that. so we believe also brought in mess and raise to try and push out boca rom. i mean, what was your understanding of what was going on by as well and just to go back to one thing that mister mcveigh said, which i think is interesting is that um it is a model uh the the, the kind of exchange that security provision for concession rights and natural

resources, but even that, that's also not a, uh, uh, a model that you need. wagner and uh for advocates, governments. uh, the that there's a correlation but not necessarily causation. that in places where there are natural resources. there, there are conflicts and governments of those countries tend to be cash strapped. they don't have a lot of cash on hand. and so for them, the easier thing to do as well to take advantage is to give away concessions that they don't necessarily control. and they don't have to give away any, any cash out of pocket. and so these deals also do work for the interest of the african government. so we're looking for security permission as to like syria. i think, you know, one of the things that we forget about wagner is that it's just, it's very standard for a gmc to be operating in africa. and that is where the demand is for private

military company involved. there is no exception. and so i think we sometimes split the carpet for the horse, women were surprised that they get there. so you can clients and places where there's concept because uh people, countries are not very good business for pnc. uh, and uh, more over how sourcing is. i think this or if they can explain that is our experience to contractors in africa is pretty standard because unfortunately, africa for a lot of the major countries such as the us and russia, is not a major priority. and so they don't want to put their own troops on the ground and would prefer to outsource the contractors if they can. okay? that that's the harsh reality of you might say what's going on on the ground. so kind of just coming hey with you, because obviously, you know, it's a, the u. n is, is watching what's going on. the e u has also made the state but what last september i'm just going to bring in what they said to the human rights commission. in geneva as hate charles c, 51 on the 28th of september. however, the roles and actions of medicine res,

categories, specifically defined and international law, should not be confused with the activities of private, military and private security companies. the use of which is lawful in certain circumstances that go on to say the report recommends that states adult legislation and regulating the activities of private military and security companies. and so we've, we've just touched on the early part of our conversation. let's not do a lot of it too much, but it is fault with problems, isn't it? even if it is approved by different member states, it in different ways us. absolutely, and i think you're quoting from uh, from my presentation to the human rights kind of so less, less 10 bucks. yeah, i never know if that was a report on, on the problems of because we are you in working with you. we do work for the us. we are independent human rights experts. and so we, we, we purchased by much, much human rights perspective. and so that report that we presented last year was a, by the lack of a capability and access to justice for, for, for victims,

full of mercenaries, and indeed private military and security companies. but at the moment there's a, there's a, regulates re gap. so as i mentioned earlier, we do have a very clear framework that criminalizes, the recruitment of training they use um the financing whole mercenaries within a very specific definition. but then we have these other actors which are not legally defined to private military companies, private military security companies, private security providers. there is a soft, low framework for them. but there isn't an internationally an international binding instrument. and the international community has been meeting over many, many years. i'd be part of that process. and they have been unable to reach an agreement on whether there should in fact be a binding instrument to address that particular the human rights. the elements of the problems associated with these kinds of factors,

because it actually doesn't in a way, it doesn't matter what you, what you call these actors. if you commit human rights violations, you commit human rights violations. if you commit war crimes or crimes against humanity, which is what we've been seeing was the, the wagon a group in car, in, in molly, it doesn't matter actually, doesn't matter. they can, the individuals can still be held criminally responsible under international law for those, for those crimes. that's what problem is. yeah. because it actually wouldn't happen as, as of when they happen. i just want to jump in because i just want to be the on site the, because they're all scenarios that are being discussed internationally about wessa . again, madison reese o groups can actually age governments a in, in certain scenarios. let's just go to pockets. dawn, for example. sure. just want to get your opinion on something. we've seen over the as the polio vaccination scheme that's being tried and tested in the northwest of the country that has often come under attack by individuals who to trust in the

state itself called seem to protect health workers. as one example. this is what n g a is a saying, all road and groups could possibly protect the health work is to of that to do a civic service. this is the grey, uh, rearranging taste of what is a medicine rate and what isn't and how they all paid. that's right. so i think that it's a moral calculus issue and then you can almost see in the future, i mean what we see, what we saw was wagner over the weekend. this is not the end of it. and also mercenary is or arm groups center, call them, they're like fire. they can either burn down your house, but they could powers you mentioned. so you can imagine how maybe even in the future in n g o might hire a mercenary group to intervene and stop. i say i sold 2.0. so a lot of good and a lot of bad can come out of most very good sponsors. sure. bad,

okay, so let me bring, give it a, a different types of medicine. me, those protecting oil tankers and shipping in, in places like the straits of malacca in asia pacific at the gulf of guinea, west africa, or even in the gulf of age. and in the middle east, some of those we've seen oil time because hijacked before, but now we're seeing a scenario where there are and then to be brought in by companies to protect those sorts of vessels. there is a, a justifiable reason sometimes to have such a mess and resembled in those locations and on those vessels. yeah, i mean i, i think that it has a strong with thing it's, it's a very complicated issue. and ultimately it comes down to a, the right ones. ok, gone on the morality and into finding what is the greater good, everybody's able to frame uh their, their certificate interest as some sort of exception and necessary exception to the

rule that should apply to others. i think it, interestingly enough, i've wagner group develop, got a lot of the private security that, that was occurring in shipping lines, especially during the small, the piracy prices. and i think whether we like it or not, there's a, there's going to be a demand for that. and that's one thing that i don't think we've addressed is, is the, the demand side, and not the, necessarily, the supply. so, i mean, ultimately, mercenaries are a product of conflict that they're symptom of into illness or not the illness and the good stuff. and the daughter group i think is come about as well at a particularly interesting time. we're seeing. okay. i sort of existential crisis and peacekeeping, specifically in africa, fair, i citizens have seen decades with you in peacekeeping missions that have failed to protect civilians and a lot of cases, intervention. after that,

you want to interventions the situation has become worse. okay. and so the main for, for military solutions, if the, if there is about to and then come back to sort of, i quickly because obviously, you know, you, we talked to somebody with a little while ago about the sort of legality of such groups. and in some countries that aren't allowed in some countries, like all the us, for example, has the largest number of security companies that seem to work internationally from our research. and even within the constitution of the article one, section 8, individuals or groups are allowed to authorize the hire of privateers, as they call it. and of course, constitution didn't get a couple 100 years ago. but while you look at the, you and your on your appeal to the was to try and regulate the issue of medicine raise. should it not be also pushed tools north america as well from the human working group perspective. and our culture regulation is truly international. it's not, we don't, we're not thinking on any one particular country we,

we think the international community should be regulating. and they, they, they use over some nice the use of private military and security contractors and regulating the services that they, they provide. and that they should be the, because any, we get there, they're not going to disappear. this is, this is the unfortunate reality when it comes to the sorts of actors that are perhaps not, not providing combat services. we have, you know, they're not going to disappear but, but as i said, there is international regulation. the, the, the prohibits the use of most of these been arms conflicts, but when it comes to the other sorts of activities and the other sorts of services that they're providing, we do see regularly 3 gaps. and that's usually problematic. an allstate, no matter where they are in the world, should be addressing this is i'm not sure. virtuous. think of that. certainly we have to leave the conversation that we've had, but i really would like to thank all of my guest special,

but fate soak mccloud and john black. the thanks so much for joining us on this edition of inside story and thank you for watching as well. as you can see, the program again, any time by visiting our website, the challenges in adults come on for further discussion k 12 facebook page on facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle that is out, hey, j inside story for me. so rahman, i'm the entire team here. thanks very much for your time. and your company the the i'm child starts the razor, the hiding side,

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