states line with this follows through courageous the judges spearheading the stand against reforms. critics, please leave the highest guardians of the constitution, vulnerable to politically motivated sanctions based on their reading. the judges, under pressure on that, just either donald trump is heard on tape discussing classified documents. it's a crucial piece of evidence in a federal investigation into his handling of sensitive documents. so how will this affects the case and the republican race for the white house? this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm for the back people. it's a 2 minute recording that could prove devastating for donald trump. he said that

i wanted to attack isn't amazing. i have a big problem. the media outlets in the united states have obtained an audio recording, in which the former president appears to have knowledge keeping classified documents. after leaving office, the recording was reportedly made in july of 2021 and the documents apparently referred to sensitive information about a possible attack on yvonne trump is facing 37 federal charges where he's handling of classified documents. he's pleaded not guilty. so just how damaging is this recording and when it effects next he is presidential race. we'll put these questions to our guests in just a moment. but 1st, this report from my white house correspondent, kimberly alcott in his 1st public remarks since the release of a controversal audio recording, donald trump lashed out those,

investigating him for allegedly removing classified documents from the white house . this stuff doesn't hold up and people know it is a continuation of the greatest which aren't of all time. that's all it is. the tennis primary purpose is election interference and we're not gonna let this election be stolen from us, no more relaxed. and what else? what the former president made the remarks will campaigning in new hampshire on tuesday and the new audio recorded during a 2021 interview with his new jersey golf course. trump appears to show classified material to a vendor writer working on a memoir of a pentagon plan for a us attack against iran, presented to him 5, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, mark, milly trump, was president. milly, let me see that. i'll show you an example. he said that i wanted to attack

in amazing this was they presented me, this is off the record, but they presented me this. this was him. this is the defense department and then. yeah. okay. so it's not amazing. this totally winds my cation, except it is highly secretive. the us justice department charge trump with $37.00 counts of mishandling top secret documents. the audio seems to counter drugs, claim dozens of boxes found last year, his mara, lago state word. just newspaper clippings, prosecutor say many of those documents were instead highly classified. the recording may also prove the government's case. the trunk did not declassified the material as he should have. well in office for the military given to me.

i think we can probably just present i could the last yeah, no, i can see the above for president trump is currently awaiting trial. he's pleaded not guilty to the charges his trial date is set for august, but prosecutors are pushing to have that date. moved to the end of the year, i, kimberly held in washington for inside story. while trump's legal issues extend, well beyond this case in march, he became the 1st former president to face criminal charges. after he was indicted for falsifying business records, it was in connection with the payoff he made to the point starts to me. daniels, one of the biggest cases is the justice department's investigation into trump's role and encouraging a violent attack off

a capital in january 2021. the case includes his efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election and as the georgia investigation, which focuses on trumps reported attempt to have official se alter the results of the states. 2020 presidential vote at spring in august. now for today's show in washington dc, john malcolm vice president of the institute for constitutional government that the heritage foundation. he's also a former us settled prosecutor in birmingham in the u. k. scott and lucas professor at the clinton institute university college dublin. and also in washington dc, bruce find a former us associate deputy attorney general and a constitutional lawyer. gentleman, welcome to inside story. thank you very much for joining us, bruce fine in washington. let me start with you for my present. trump has always said that the documents he took with him from the white house where declassified. but this published audio recording appears to contradict this, how damming is this,

and is this a nail in the case against john? well, i think it's an exaggeration to point to just one piece of evidence is conclusive, the burden is on prostate or to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. and this certainly under cuts the president's forward claim. maybe it's still maintains that, that he could just think about the classifying the document in his head. and it became the classified by magic here, at least the tape, if it's all physics suggest that he knew that you would need to do certain things in a formal way. did you classify doc? many hadn't done it at least with regard. this document concerning a potential attack on iraq. so this is not helpful to mr. trump. i think it may force him to consider testifying, which he probably doesn't want to do in the case, right to try to undermine its impact. but i wouldn't say that it's makes it

a slam dunk bruce, is it clear from the indictment? if the documents that were referencing the recording are the ones we covered by the, by the investigators? well, the indictment parallel is exactly what you played in terms of putting in transcript in written form. the exchange especially, you know, it's too late to be classified as so that's, there is a parallel there which woodland authenticity to the, the, the audio that we listen to. but you have a trial so that the other side can cross exam. you never take anything at face value. right? drawn malcolm. what was your 1st reaction when you heard this recording? does it tell you anything you didn't know ready? no, it doesn't tell me anything. i didn't know already because that transcript is contained in paragraph 34 of jack smith's indictment that is pending down in florida. but just as a picture is worth a 1000 words, you know,

an audio recording has more of an impact than reading a transcript on on camera. it also leaves open, i suppose. the possibility that jack smith could've died. a former president, trump, for disclosing classified information to a person who didn't have the requisite clearances, and he could do that in new jersey since this exchange took place of his resort in bed minister, new jersey. i doubt he's going to do that. i think if he was going to do that, he would have done it already. and i agree with, with bruce, you know, look, these are our allegations. the former president has taken somewhat of a scatter shot approach. he said, well, i to classify these records and i had to write to keep them under the presidential records act. and each one of these pieces of evidence puts a kink in that defense. johnny sat in the tape, it's so cool that he has these classified documents, those are his words. why did he do it? you think, was this just about showing off to? oh i have, i have no idea. i mean,

there are stories out there that he was convinced by associates, that he had a right to have these documents onto the presidential records act. maybe he did it because he wanted to confront people who were you were saying bad things about him, which is what he appears to be doing in the tape that you just played. there could be myriad of reasons as to why he kept them all the we shouldn't have. okay, scott lucas, your thoughts about this tape and what you heard? how dining is it for donald trump? well, library, 1st of all, with john with bruce that it doesn't change the substance of the legal case against donald trump in this indictment. indeed, the existence of this audiotape, not the type being played, but the existence of this type became down at the end of mac, wasn't a week before trunk was indicted. but on the political front course, what this does is this amplifies as it were, the indictment, it amplifies the seriousness of it. and it does cause a real problem for donald trump's public defense,

which is varied from all the planted documents. i didn't know the documents were there, and then of course, that idea that he could be classified the dealer with a signature or in his mind that's kind of gone. now, what i find most interesting about this is the context of this case because this document was one of the most sensitive in future us government. it was a document about us war plans on here wrong. now why would donald trump release us for plans on iran to a writer, a publisher, as well as to staff who were in the rear? it is because she wanted to score a point against the current. and then chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, mark miller, donald trump, who else assurance series of grievances would really want to make really looked at and making look like a war longer on a wrong and portray trump is the sensible responsible statement. who the for the war and the reason why i presented this stuff document as he thought it helped that case. and as he makes clear consequences be down,

even if he wasn't supposed to be revealing that document to anybody this courtney said doesn't change the substance of the case. trumpet said in the past that he could shoot someone on 5th avenue and no one would care. is this the case with his recording? do you think his followers, he's supporters. will care about this? well, you know, there are some people who come hell or high water have stuck with donald trump throughout his years as a candidate, as president, even to the point of when he allegedly incited the capitol attack in january 2021. and i don't think it shows that neither one of those folks. i don't think it shows that either one of those folks who are probably a gas truck. but there are a lot of americans who aren't. and one of those 2 count and i take what this does is it sort of blows away the initial defense of truck supporters, which is there's nothing to see here folks. let's move along. let's talk about other issues that highlights the fact that no, this is

a serious issue. this isn't just the court case. this is a court case about leasing documents, and it's not just about leasing documents. it's about losing top secret documents, which are vital to american national security. there was fine. what do you think the defense of trump could be office can, can his defense team come up with anything to counter this evidence? well, it's difficult. i mean, we're just talking about this one count. yeah. we're talking about in the day. but that ledges not only that, he retained the national defense information, which is the standard and the espionage act. it doesn't use the word codified information, but he's also being indicted for obstruction of justice, but less for the obstruction of justice aside for the moment. um, what can his defenses be? well, he could say he didn't have any reason to believe it could be adversely prejudicial to the interest of the united states. and in fact, and i've written about this, my a, my view was that, and i don't know whether you take the issue is that you can make an arguable case

that the espionage jack is overbroad under the 1st amendment. because you don't have to prove there was actual injury or impairment to the national security of the united states. just that there was reason to believe that it might happen. it's a standard of actually injury that was established in the pentagon papers case and new york times versus united states. so we could challenge the constitutionality, the, you know, jack, under the 1st amendment is never suggested. they would do that in the past. he'd kind of praise the espionage act as applied to others, but i believe that is his best defense. otherwise, you don't have to under the 5th amendment to have any defense. all just tell the prosecutors got approved beyond a reasonable doubt. you know that i had reason to believe this would be damaging to the interest the united states and i shared with people not authorized this, not the strongest case in the world if you're not taking your own defense. but he might do that. john, do you agree with, with both? how do you prepare a defense when it's right there and take?

well i certainly the defensive piece has talked about is one he is likely to raise . he has also talked extensively about the presidential records act that his belief that he had a right to have those documents. this is an audio tape, not a video tape. i suppose. he could argue, i alluded to these documents, but didn't actually show the documents. you know, i didn't want to go to where i just disagree with bruce, not as a practical matter. i agree with you that any time a defendant takes the stand. it is a very, very risky proposition. but this is donald trump are talking about, i think it will be extremely difficult to keep him off of the stand. he will just want to tell his story. bruce, do you think is going to take the step as well? you can try to extract blade from the track record. we know that, you know, he did not take the stand in the civil case, but by gene a carol i guess on the sexual assault issue, we know that his attorney

a john dowd and i knew john when i was at the justice department told from you i never got to let you be deposed by molly, and he said, oh, from it because you know you're going to destroy yourself. so in the past is lawyers have urged him not to testify and he hasn't done so on the other end. he has been subject to depositions before, and it's really my view is as lawyers will urge him not to testify, but he may decide he's got to testify any way he thinks he can sway the jury. you can see how he performed on the cnn uh town hall interview, kind of barging through with the interrogator. but i think it's very, very risky. but at this stage you got to take risk given the substantial launch, ease confronting. all right, got lucas. let's talk about the political implications of all this. this is not the 1st case against donald trump. i mean, they are either cases, the hash money payment case or january status in 6th and insurrection investigation and the republican presidential candidates. except for chris chrissy. perhaps i

have largely defended donald trump and criticized jacks. jack smith, right, can this be the opening perhaps for some of the republicans to change or to not this if you like the sales, but fortunately, they're not here. so let's talk about the record today. remember, it's not just the case of trumpeting under and died. i mean, the fact is, is the truck organization was convicted in 2022 in new york state or business malpractice. there are pending cases in new york state regarding fraud and tax members associated with the truck. and of course there was the conviction on sexual assault, but between carol and the not too nice with trump being ordered to pay off $500.00 . so that's what link the link link, the legal records that he's compiled. for that side, what you've seen so far from the republican chatted. this is using ronda santos

before the governor who's trying to out trunk truck is trying to take a fairly straight positions and went over the trunk voters. so he's probably not going to go after truck for oh, i want to be so relaxed searching. why someone like john rando santa so reluctant to go off to trump because the republicans, politicians are being held hostage by donald trump is a perception the trunk voters are still a significant part of the republican constituency. and so it was the alienate trump, voters. they don't have a home in the primaries next year. it's as simple as that is the reason why might touch, even though donald trump was willing to let like trance, be attacked on january. the 6th 2021 did nothing to get him out of that predicament . during the trap. what talk? why mike pence has been blow to come out against trump. it's why other candidates have tried to avoid comment on these legal matters, picks up for, you know, a chris christy. right is coming from slightly different background of the way that his campaign talked is wrong. but i'll just refer you to something chapter the

couple of years ago, which still is striking to me, and that is, out of time when donald trump had survived the 2nd engagement, the trial was not convicted. but at a time when he even mitch mcconnell, so the majority leader was like the courts must hold him to account kevin mccarthy who is currently the republican house, straight for speaker. right initially criticized probably capital attack. and then within 2 weeks he went to florida. if you punch the lesions to trump, and i think you see other candidates who think, do i stand up against trump, or do i not necessarily fell down before him? take a pass on this. they go for the latter, because they say that trump floats in certain states, key states or central to their chances of advancing john malcolm. your thoughts? why do some republican candidates want to take a pass on this and does it? what impact does it have on the republican primary and on republicans fearful that if comp represents them, they might lose the house and send it to the next election. well, 1st of all,

joe biden, this himself vulnerable. ready there are a majority of people across political across political parties. so i think he's who . busy is and should not run. i agree with a lot of what scott said. the other thing that i would say is donald trump has done a remarkably good job at persuading a broad number of people. a very, very large number of people that there is a 2 tiered system of justice that play that targets conservatives. and here's also convinced to supporters that they're not really after donald trump. they are after them and that they are using that they're trying to go get to them through donald trump and the donald trump is standing up for them as their champion. and i think that other than that, scott is, is right. everyone else is sort of waiting to see what's going to happen, see whether these other indictments make a dent, and they want to be able to get all of those current. trump supporters to come over and vote for them if that happens right,

bruce fine for our international audience. what happens if a presidential candidate is indicted? well, he's already been indicted. so you're seeing it. you know, as you're speaking, the 3 of us and i, the watching thing, what, what, you know, when it heading to the campaign, i mean, and, and you know, when it heard him in the polls are the practical ways under which it shouldn't be able to campaign for example, as well, i don't think that you know, which is his numbers have been impacted substantially by the 2 outstanding indictments we have now one in new york and one of them are alive. i do think that the political fallout would be great. or if he's indicted for the january 6 insurrection, and on that score, i do want to call attention to another candidate, mike pence, basically said, distancing himself. and my view legally, substantially from from said on the morning of january 6,

trump approached him and said you got to choose between me and the constitution. in other words, you know, are we gonna have a rule of law or rule of man? and pen said i chose the constitution and we know what from did defense and kind of let about paying to drive. and so, the reason why january 6th loom so large politically is because under section 3 of the 14th amendment, if there was a conviction under insurrection, there's a disqualification of any one in that position from ever occupying, not only the presidency, any office under the united states, i do think that would that would that would move the issue in a different direction because it's going to be very difficult for mike tends to walk back, is words which are about as and from an a to use you can get it. okay. interesting . so what happens then if he's elected, let's say, what have for speculating, of course, if he's elected with a case still in progress as well, we have this very unusual feature, create a president part to himself. now i confronted that issue that didn't have to reach

fruition that the justice department present nixon was under investigation by archibald cox and that, and he was fired and it was the special prosecutor leon drawers game. and there is where as well as the pressing nixon gun, a part of himself, whitford prevented prosecution. there was no clear recognition whether there would be any obvious conflict of interest that would prevent that pardon, from being effective. so it's an unknown territory, and it's possible if president trump were elected, he could part himself and move all these cases off the docket because you can issue a part and even before and a die not only after and date. so those are the states when it comes to the rule of law, at least as a possibilities. a underscore is an unknown constitutional terrain right now on child a territory. scott lucas trump still holds a commanding lead over. he's announced primary opponents. could that change who or what do you see us? his biggest challenge right now. i have

a lot of speculation. indeed it plays into donald trump's hands to speculate about political ramifications. because what trump is trying to do is to play the victim. and at the same time, so you can prosecute me if you pursue this. it only makes me stronger. the fact the matter is that we still have 8 months before the 1st republican primaries across, as we still have 17 months before it is the general election. and that's a long and winding road. what i can tell you right now is that this lays out into something which here would be the case of facts of the legal process versus white noise. and the white noise, which will be there on social media, it will be there on certain media outlets in the united states is to try to simply cover up the legal process to wish it a way to turn it into a deep state plot against donald trump. to raise of other distracting issues. and that raises a broader issue because if that white noise trial, yes,

the legal facts with this case and of the other case, or obscured, or ripped apart by to suction, by misrepresentation. it says something about the challenge to american democracy challenge which could be of this greatest point. since 1965, it's still a long time, as you say, soc scott until the republican primary not abiding team. interesting. he has been very quiet for the time being. what will this change in your view over the next few months as a campaign heats up? how do they handle this without commenting on the legal developments, without looking like they interfering, in the case one way or another? you don't comment on the case because it would be interference. that's not just a political decision. that's a legal decision. this is a case which is being brought up by the justice department has been bought by federal prosecutors. the traditional branch of the united states must remain separate from the executive branch, and that must be respected by the president,

whether he's named joe biden or someone else. so i would expect no comment on the details of this case. now, for the future, no matter how much again, what was thrown out to try to force or push joe biden, due to making a comment, which would be appropriate. all right, john, your thoughts? how do you see all this post proceeding and progressing? it's complicated, isn't it? to, to deal with classified documents in court. it is uh, is so commenting on what scott said, that's not the only reason joe biden won't comment on this. he is himself still under investigation by a special counsel or possession in his own right or classified documents. and there is all of these reports out there from whistle blowers and whatnot. this is son hunter vide and just got a real sweetheart deal in delaware. and that the department of justice obstructed that investigation. so president biden enters into very, very hot water if he comments, at least at this stage on this indictment scott's also right. there's

a long time between the 1st carcasses and primaries. no longer time before the election. i think the president trump probably about 50 percent of his support is very, very firm. the other 50 percent are fishing around it could be persuaded to join other candidates. and i think that is way to see what other shoes brought. okay. uh, both side, i'll give you the last word, your thoughts about joe biden, and the democrats. can they capitalize on this? and how do you see this case against donald trump? progressing and proceeding? well, i certainly agree the position of mister bye and you should be complete silence. that's what it means to have a rule of law rather than a rule of man bosses is so important as the center piece of our democratic dispensation. they shouldn't, he shouldn't say a single word other than that there is a presumption of innocence. mr. trump is entitled to all the rights and any other defendant would have, let's say of this decided the court of law and in advance,

we accept the verdict. no matter what it is, we don't hedge one way or the um, and i do think this particular election and the investigations of mr. trump are truly the greatest test of our democracy. certainly since watergate, our processes are under threat. mr. trump, his question, they are legitimacy. basically saying, i don't need to comply with the constitution in 2019. he said without any push back that i have article to where i have the right to do anything i want as president i yes, that takes hold in this country. the revolution of 1776 has been under. okay gentlemen, thank you so very much for your insight. it was very interesting to hear your thoughts on this both fine, john malcolm scott lucas, thank you very much and thank you as well for watching. you can always watch this program again any time by visiting our website that i'll just era dot com for further discussion, go to on facebook patients, facebook dot com forward slash

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