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hello and welcome to the program. i'm serial then yay! it's been a decade in the making. the euclid telescope was originally meant to be lifted into space by a russian. so use rocket. but the european space agency handed the launch operation in the end to space x. after russia invaded ukraine, backed by a budget of one and a half $1000000000.00 euclid 6 to unveil the secrets of dark matter in the dark energy, the drives, the exhilarating expansion of the universe. what precisely is it searching for? we'll get to our guests in a moment 1st though, this report by any hobby lobby. 5431 the president, this quest to answer some of the biggest questions. it goes knology. b, u, p in space agencies usually tell us school is traveling one and

a half 1000000 kilometers away from earth to unravel the mysteries of dark energy and dark matter. after a decade of hard work, you please will use its expensive fields of you to chart the most accurate 3 dimensional map of the universe recreate to smoke dynamic pressure. it will precisely map the positions of about 2000000000 galaxy x q, and research has hope it will enable them to better understand the origins of the universe and what it's made off. it's the major logical advancement at looking at the universe from space, the part of the universe you'll kids will map about the 3rd of the sky. and it will see all the way to about 10000000000 years ago, right. the whole universe is 13800000000 years old. the expansion of the universe is accelerating, and research is believe dark energy is the force behind it. despite making up 95

percent of the calls, most doc match the undock energy cannot be detected directly. dark energy is estimated to account for 70 percent of the universe, while dark matter a mix up about 25 percent. all visible material like planets, dust gas installs form only 5 percent. and over the course of 6 years, euclid is designed to achieve more than any previous telescope. opening up a new era of exploration and understanding of our universe. we had all a b, d for inside story. the. let's bring in our a guess. yeah. fail re euclid mission manager, the european space agency. you are joining us from the european space operation center. that's in darmstadt. germany in court of chris gonzales is with us professor of extra galactic astronomy at the university of manchester. thank you

for being with us. and joining us from southern me to pull boston friends is paul taylor. you're a senior fellow at the friends of your, of the think tank. welcome to each and all of you. i want to ask the same question to all of you just to kick us off on a scale of one to 10. how excited are you by this mission? just a number for now, and then we'll get into the why of it. all right, let's start with you here and then by us because i'm working on the same stuff. i was expecting a 12 from you, but that's what we'll get back over, but we'll get back to it. chris, as i would, i would also say 10, but i would go higher if i could it's it's one of the most exciting things that's going to be happening for a long time. okay. no surprises there. will want to know why in just a 2nd, paul? well, i would say about 5 actually, because i think it's very fascinating. it's in terms of the pure science and all knowledge of the universe. but i'm not sure that it's really going to help your to

remain competitive in the space age. and i think. ready there are lots of bits missing and the fact that it has to be launched by an american launcher because we don't currently have a european. lots are available that could do it. is a symptom of the problems. yeah, i knew that that was a particular area of focus of yours, and that's why we mentioned that at the top of the show, look, those grades are on brand for all of you. let me start with with care and chris peer especially, i know as so as the, the mission manager for this, i'm sure you've had to explain this mission. you've had to give the one hour presentation version of it and you've had to give the 22nd version of it in your power points or to various deciders. give us just the 22nd version of what this mission is for. so the 22nd, the suddenly stopped by the key. we don't know what 95 percent of the universities made off on. so that's we all, we need to understand what the legal documents i'm not gonna cheat on you. keep is

going to be the largest and most i'd create a free the my profile. we need us to date on peace is going to be, i think main bring both focus more energy on. so a lot of financial federal physics of course, to be clear. i know you're not wearing the e. s a polo like periods, but you've been involved with this euclid admission for, since it's inception right since 2011 more than a decade. and you also gave this a 10 out of 10 on the excitement scale. it would have been a 12 if i had allowed it should be a 12 for you. um do you want to build on what you just said? for sure, so as pier said 95 percent of the universe, we don't know what it is, dark matter dark energy, most. that's dark energy and that's the main focus of euclid is. understand the dark energy by mapping the universe. the 3 d, we're looking at how galaxies and dark matter is concentrated throughout the universe all time as well. my doing now we can figure out what is the dark introduced? is it something which is constant and universe or to something which is increasing

stress? then we can understand, perhaps new physics and euclid is the by far the best instrument for designing this right now. okay, paul, just before we go deeper into the science of this site, we said we said already, we stablish your focus is not so much on the science it's, it's more of a terrestrial nature. it's why europe has fallen behind is falling behind, perhaps in the space race. why it wouldn't be able to launch with a european launcher, it has to use an american company. we'll get to all those questions. what interest you most about this? yeah, i think this is an area where you're really is in the lead is, is this space science? of course it's not just your opponent. so many of these are collaborative projects in which nasa and the are a bit space h. ready see what closely and scientists around the world still have that commonality despite all of the 2 political tensions that they're off of. but the

fact is that you know, the bits of space that i look at, which are your kids security and space. european economic competitiveness in space . the story is not as as dazzling as it is with the clint program. okay. all right paul, i'm going to involve peer and chris a little more heavily. i think over the next 10 minutes or so because we have the privilege of having to is deemed guests and sciences to explain this. let's look since this mission explain it aims to explore 2 unknowns, right, dark matter and dark energy, which despite the commonality in the name the dark, there are actually 2 separate things we need to make that clear from the outset. you said that dark refers to the fact that it's invisible. i believe you'll feel free to correct me if i'm not saying it right. but there are 2 separate things. so let's look at the launcher. what is, who has actually been sent into space and what is right now on its journey a 30 day journey uh to uh, the disappoint, known as a l to again,

correct me. um, the law should basically looks like a big s u, v. it's about 3 and a half meters by 4 and a half meters. it's about it weighs about 2 times. so as i said, a biggish s u v, and it's got 2 instruments on board. let's start with the v is v i as visible image or appear. what's that for that? maybe just to say you're talking about the spacecraft because they don't show as broad testing space as a directed us to walk. the stay was now and 2 point, but 63 of a spacecraft. ok, which contains the spacecraft. it says what the scope, i mean the points from us. so this is on the major in the easy but a line. so what i, i can see on the talk to you as a very low single here, because we need to buckle, gosh, a fraction of what's can be small than 6. so under the make up, it says ok. and the so it's like the very last camera. i'm the so come to some nice,

well, hold on, hold on. let's say, let's stay on the 1st part because as we said, it's really kind of to submissions into one, if i'm not mistaken. so vis, as you said, is it a mirror image or with a large field of view, it can look at about one 3rd of our sky. is that right? no, no, talk to one sun, but we obviously salvation a little bit 6 us we we corvette one for the we, we one for the west guys up to 10. we don't use a light chose so of course, how does this work? how do we map that one 3rd of the universe? so? so this is basically the field of view which is 3 times the size of the moon on the sky. so if you see the moon on the sky, this can take a picture of 3 times as large as that in area. and so what this does is, is every day it does a total of the transfer degrees in the sky. and so it takes pictures 10 for degrees, and over the course of the mission it will cover it all sort of the sky. so any one day doesn't do the entire sky. it just does show 10 degrees,

which is about 20 times the size of the mean. and then that is done every day and a new part of the sky. and then you make a map of the tire sky through that process. and it's, it's a 3 d map. well, the picture now pretty the picture just pictures and you see the galaxies and starts to see anything in the universe and that direction. so what we do is we measure what's called the the red ships, which is, is how fast the galaxy numbers moving away from us, which is a measure of the distance. these things are, are highly correlated. this comes back to hubble's law. we known about it for a 100 years. the further away galaxy is the faster it's moving away from us. so we can measure that processional velocity. how fast moving away from us will know how far away is. so that's really the mapping. the mapping is done in the analysis of the images themselves. so this takes pictures and then all we have is the other instrument which takes them forever. pictures from the ground based imaging from telescopes on her that are that are also scanning the same part of the sky. and we put that together. you can figure out how hard each galaxy receive

a bit is how far away it is. and then when you do that, you can make a math with these 2000000000 galaxies that, that was or you can make them out of the tired universe or take some analysis. it's not something you get right away. when you take a picture, you have to actually analyze the data with other dat. here, why is the european space agency spinning $1400000000.00? that amount isn't dollars, which is about half of its annual budget on this mission. the b service because it so, so we were talking before about so the, the sheet dying say are some the and this is actually these all scientific questions on the inside. you keep these questions well raised a quite a long time ago, but in 2007 be fault with us. and then there was a quote for proposal for formations and these were items i, i priority questions. and then we basically selected the, you keep it, it'd become the united nation as would be just nice mission fall sonya john c. okay

. on the we will basically be we have the 2 pete on, right? so when we launch, as we say this is going to be the largest the most to i can write of these maps and this is going basically to bring another like me to the, in terms of a trustee about determining some permit. so, so we want these called w, okay, which is the value close to one so far we, we think it's close to one, but we need the measurements to figure out the factory. it's one or 2 different than one off each of irene waste time in the universe on. so it's a really important question. so, wheeling pissing of the same down. wheeling boosting, we think a spacecraft, we'll be being state of the often semantics sleeping, club bush and also we but because of so many just train you are. so each 4 syllables because she insane. honestly the sheep in space industry or so. let's look at the 2nd tool and we'll put up the picture again of the 2 instruments that

are on this euclid telescope. this one is called n i s p near infrared, spectrometer and photometry. or what chris, what does that to, what does it do? what does it measure? so, well, this is, let's see, the visual light or the optical, like, like, i like, what are i see in these get galaxies? this is the near forever version of that. so it takes deep nearer for rent imaging, so this is why we just read or what our life and our, our own eyes can see. and it also takes very poorly spectroscopy. so it takes a spectrum of the distant galaxies that we see. and that's important for many different reasons, but especially for knowing exactly as long as i was mentioning before, the red ships already lost with each of these galaxies. and from that you can measure or really accurately, how much dark matter there is a different ethics and the universe been. and that will give you an idea of what the dark energy is. so it's in somebody's the, the end forever and of this. but it also has

a fair rep on it that will let us measure, basically the internal properties and velocities of the galaxies. that will, we'll say. so this measures specifically, this is to answer the dark energy question or to start answering the dark energy question. correct? so both of these instruments are designed to answer the dark energy question. that's the primary mission of it. so it has other science that it can do vast amounts of science for these images and data. but the main goal is to do the dark energy, and that's how the instruments were designed to do. so, yes, and, and appear a little refreshment course on dark energy. our universe is expanding. so some of our viewers may notice some may have forgotten it. some may have never known this, but our universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, and that's what you're trying to figure out. yes, so what can the meaning of the end of the ninety's slut to came? i was just surprised that somebody there was indeed we did take that,

but so you know, this was expending at the next 2 to 3. whereas if we take only your receiver tends to pull things together, we were expecting the rates which was strolling so full. but we are to, seriously, i looked up and one of them is that involving be stuck in energy. and the next step is to understand what is ducking, energy. and this is really the order origin model called on the 20 years ago from what you keep us going be. so that's one. so basically the questions you can keep as the concept chris, if we don't know 90 percent of the universe, right. whether it's dark matter, dark energy, both of them combined is estimated, composes 95 percent of the universe. the remaining 5 percent is what we see what we can already know the stars, the planets. we see that that's only 5 percent of the universe. if we don't know, almost all the universe percentage wise, what does that,

what does that mean about the level of our scientific knowledge right now? if we don't know most of what there is to know, maybe we're wrong about what we think we do know right now. so we know that these things exist because we can see either observational faxed of noted, are matter for almost a 100 years and, and dark energy now 25 years or so. and so we know that they exist being so low, the under buying physics of it. we don't know what is the particle that makes it or, or we don't know what is the, the effect of the universe or just creating the acceleration. right. what is the, the dark energy, there's something into a space, something to do with in the way that matters and the universe has constructed. there's many different theories about us. there's no lack of ideas. what these things are. so it's not like we don't know anything about properties of the dark matter of energy even though quite a bit about dark matter. no more but dark energy learn a lot more from experiments like euclid. so although we don't know exactly what

they are, we do have some idea of how they interact and, and, and the properties. and this is, this is this. so we don't exist. so we just want to find out more about it. so it's not like it's an unknown completely. we do know a bit about it. got it. all right paul, let's bring your back into this conversation. thank you so much for your patience. we have to dive into the science. so to, to get to some of the wider questions here, as i said earlier, more terrestrial questions, if you feel that europe has fallen behind in the space race by what measure as well. i think 1st slowly falling behind the launches, we don't have any launcher that's currently capable of uh, sending a uh, a rocket into space. uh once around 5. well, that's a piece of his final mission this week. until we get our on 6 great big, lumbering rock, a french largely developed the rocket which has been put back and back and is now

suppose to fly to the 1st time the end of this year. but we're not sure of that, but also um you know, where, where we've. busy back and other measurements, i think this, well, we don't have a reusable lordship, a new space set to the set to which is the private sector above the nerves in space is way behind the united states. and to some extent, you know, behind what china is doing and the real problem about roots of every. ready is the lack of investment with just not investing as much as easily united states of trucks. the world's biggest space budget is estimated. united states spends about $55000000000.00 a year on space trying. there is estimates spelled on all i have those i have those numbers let's, let's put them up. so we all know what we're talking about. as far as actual government spending on space budget, you're right. that the us absolutely worst everyone else to the tune of about $62000000000.00. this was in 2022 right? the last year. right. $62000000000.00 invested by the us as go down the list. china

is pretty far, but very far behind. 12000000000. japan number 3 at just about 4. yeah, just about 5000000000 russia just behind a 3 and a half. $3400000000.00 the in you falls out of the top 5 and it stands at $2600000000.00 invested. so again, it means that the us is investing 30 times or story because there are, you know, the individual member states have the national space budgets as well. right? but, you know, that's, but that's the amount of the use buttons collectively. and it's not impressive. and you know, there are various other measures you could look at. we have a 2nd hole. why is that? by the way, why is europe spending a lot less than the us? why is you have spending? well, as you said, i was gonna say spending less than china, but if you tell you up all the european countries individually, i'm not sure what the total, what that totals it comes to that just a single reason. it's because of the united states,

the space program from the outset has always been military lead. it's been about power. it's been about 2 politics and the $800.00 pound gorilla, or all the $800000000000.00 gorilla is the us defense budget. and only american space contract does the people that the jeff pays offices and they eat on mosques and so on. they are people who are feeding partly off that defense budget and they're getting contracts to launch satellites for the department of defense. and that the subsidizes their civilian business, telecommunications and the internet connectivity is face tourism even um and the europeans have nothing like that uh, collective military budget. and um, so that there just isn't the same central driving force, which also drives the chinese and also drives the russians. although both of them have also been involved to

a scientific exploration just as we europeans. and so, you know that there are a number of other measures you can look at, for example, if you look at space situational awareness is it's cool. how do we know what's going on in states? how do we, though it's something some piece of junk is about to hit the european satellite. the answer is if the americans tell us, because the europeans themselves have no comprehensive picture of what's out that it loads a little bit. and so, you know, the low us old, which is getting more and more crowded there and more and more private set to satellites being launched every week of the. and the result is that there is more and more space debris that is around there caused by space weather storms go. ready by close by this fire isn't uh thing launches that go wrong. it doesn't dual fact full back to us through extrude gravity. and therefore there's more and more junk cluster in utah, but the europeans really don't have

a picture of their own. they rely on the united states for that information. okay, i'll have another that hold on for i can see pierce browning and wants to jump in here. don't go, you know, maybe just as we were talking about budget your thoughts. so you say the we're, you can talk about what you wrote, you opened commission spending, but the futile kind of 2022 of the budget. tough of esau view, open space agency coming from each summer stage. press b were been, you know, on the we are, we all books are going to be your, uh okay, yours, sorry, sorry. i remember. and uh, we'll say about 7000000000 euros full 2022. okay. okay. fair enough. so that's the remark. we were making that if you add up what the issue is spending plus with the european space agency as mending, plus what individual member states are spending. it's a different number and that's a fair point. so guess, i mean we have, we have leadership in the hopes of ation on the meaning delta to things which can be seen are supposed to keep close. okay,

but here the how do you feel about the fact that you have to launch euclid right? this largely european projects on an american launcher, a private launcher for me. and they told me there was no feeling in the sense that we knew we have to be shut, but give us something either she insight in space, say us, okay. we have some other mission which was worthy, and then there is a pragmatism to say, okay, we want to keep the speed of shipping space, say us, right? oh yes, but long shot, but we trust supposed to be around so on. so use most motivated to put in more so we went very pragmatic to say we chancia is available. no, uncomfortable with our mission. i think it's also for records and chris. yeah, i agree. i mean i've been part was part of the discussion. we're going to have a russian lodgers till the invasion of the ukraine. and then the around was just not of in interval. and so space x was really the best option. and otherwise you

could have launch after a lot of other upcoming missions. we're going to launch in the us and we'll put here in space and strong arm be behind us. and that's something i think that we would like to avoid senior in so space x was really the only option to get you put in space as possible. and, and paul, perhaps speaking to a point that both pierre and chris have made in various forms since the beginning of the program. this research, this fundamental space research is also something that's going to help contribute putting your back on the space map of course. and, you know, it has commercial spinoffs, and of course, many of the, you know, there are many areas in which you're physically vague. and i, i always like to mention, i kinda like. ready the satellite navigation and positioning system, which is a refuted to be the world's most accurate about what copernicus which is the other types of ation satellite that is, you know,

vital and explaining it in studying how find that changes working. how a cro patents are changing and all those sorts of things. um we, we have a number of really important assets that as europe stands, but there are areas where we will be moving into those areas which are commercially . and. ready and they'll be le, terribly important, they are about money and power and where we need to catch up the are in commission amongst others, is trying to do that. so what are they got this project which is beat approved to produce a european uh, secure connectivity constellation of satellites. that's something that will allow for a telecommunications internet also for military communications. and it's something which will give the europeans more of their own capability of less need to rely on other countries. now the pallets,

they're all really important areas where europe is doing its best to catch up. but i have to say in the, in the new space commercial areas, we're still lagging behind and i think folding further behind the united states in some ways. all right, gentlemen, thank you so much to all of you. that's all the time we have for this conversation . but i think we've been able to explain the science behind it also where it leaves europe in the global space res. thank you all for your time. jeff l. re christopher can sell us and pull a taylor. thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website that's houses here in com for further disc us and do good our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash 8 inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter or handle at a inside story from me several then you and the whole team here, the

the, a supervisor of a genocide, people who are likely to kill the trend or suffering. but it didn't come to hard to do who's dedicated his life to searching the woods for phones that the victims of the shrubbery needs can mastercard, even here is the drove in the hope for finally laying the pos to rest, giving peace to the victims. families cause i need to, if i could just find a think about, i could bury him, phone hunter on out his era. the great thing about being and use present to other networks like i and 0 is that it's of truly global operation. few more challenges here, you'll see news from parts of the world. the other networks just don't come up.

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