and where is the western agenda heading? that's the g 7. really even matter anymore. who's more electable, joe biden? or donald trump, or journalist in the media undermining our society. can americans cross their supreme court is not corrupt. the quizzical look us pull it to the bottom line. we don't simply focus on the politics of the conflict. is the human suffering that the reports are we brave bullets and bombs, and we always include the views from all sides. hundreds of people from several african countries have been ordered out of to nature, but are bar to entry to neighboring libya. the group stuck in no man's land includes women and children. why are they fair and what's next for them? this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much enjoyed them. hundreds of people from various african countries all hoping to reach. europe are stranded on the border between libya and to an agent that you need and authorities want them out and libya won't let them in many, including women and children. so they have no food, water, or shelter, and are relying on a to survive. so why are they stuck in the middle? and how is this stand off arisen? will be asking that and exploring the wider issues with our guests and a few moments. but 1st, this report from make up some sharif a loaf of bread and a bottle of water is hard to come by for african microns into 2 nice impulse. the city of stocks, of today's violence and full sticks functions. people gathered from 5 to 4 supplies disputed by local denise in the fall, and to help us to police side of the amount of the violence and what happened to the michael and susan to main. when we spoke to them, they told us they've been attacked and the women had been raped. the money was

stolen, we hope the government will find solutions full, then we can't let them live in this situation, letting him sleep in the heat and let them be threatened upon me is up. i mean, some of us don't even have a do not to buy a bottle of water. so we want to see a thank you very much. hundreds of fathers on die in need of help stranded in the desert on the boat of libya with no food or water. c which attentions fled to speak of to tennessee. mine was to get into fox and monday. it led to hundreds of miles, winds being rounded up by police and move to this desolate area. human rights watch has it's denise is leaders to hold what it calls collective expansions. but the government says it has no plans to allow the migrants to stay in the mobile. the ultimate solution must be at the international level, the countries of origin transit destination in europe and international organizations must corporate and find as far as the old,

the disturbances in stock. so not new, a place that's become a departure point for thousands of people seeking to cross the mediterranean, toyota, and february preston because site blamed on documented migrants for importing bonds and crime and changing the country is demographic makeup. rights activists accuse the president of soaking racial tension. this kind of inflammatory speech is taking the country by storm and the pushed that no matter how much you try to push back, then this information just spread like wildfire. the hopes of a better life has landed many in the ceiling heat of the desk. now they're looking for any rate out. on the consumption eve, i'll just see the inside story. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our panel of guess from washington dc. lauren seibert

works for human rights watch as a researcher on refugee and migrant rights. she's communicating directly with migrant stuck on the border between libya and tanisha from the capital to this. i mean, susie is a political analyst and specialist onto an asian politics and from new haven in the united states, i have the option value as a p h. the candidate at the danish institute for international studies, or research focuses on migration and border policies into egypt, libya, the mediterranean, and the southern borders of europe. a warm welcome to you want. thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. lauren, let me start with you today. you are in touch with many of the migrants and asylum seekers that are stuck on the border between to nature and libya. what's the latest your hearing from them? how dire is the situation they are facing? and are they receiving any help? a thank you so much. the situation is only getting worse right now. i was just speaking with one of them who sent me photos and videos and an audio recording. just saying that, alleging that the 2 needs in security forces now are i've been beating people of

firing shots in the air. and then yesterday they were, they had told me that the libyans to the arms, libyan man and uniform, had been also doing the same. but well firing shots in the air and pushing them back, although not beating people. so today it just seems, but it just seems that they're just caught in the middle with no ones to help. laura, let me also also ask you of human rights watch is urging tunisia to stop the expulsion of these migrants. have you and your colleagues been able to communicate directly with any to an agent officials? and have you gotten any response we have thought to communicate with an agent officials and, and have not received any official response, nor any further information about this seeming campaign of rounding people up in sacks, in particular. and then a arbitrarily sit detaining and then exposing them expelling them to the border in groups of countries. no,

they have not commented to us on this. i have them from your vantage point and based on all the research that you have done, what might happen next to the people stuck in this no man's land and, and how worrying is the situation for them. a thank you. uh, this is a very worrying situation. um, and it's also unfortunate the only latest in the long chain of events that we have on. fortunately, seen some of the situations over happening over the past year. and what eventually happens is it nothing they are left to fend for themselves. eventually they will find ways the situation will come down and this is the problem and we will continue to see situations like this in the absence of a political and official political framework. all migration from the 2 nations side and as well. impressions that are continuing to pressure to an issue to manage my

grants and assign them, see, because in the country i have them, you brought up politics. i want to ask you about an incident that occurred in february. that's when to an asian president price. i had gave a speech where he talked about migraines from sub saharan africa who come to, to nature and bring with them quote, violence, crime and unacceptable practices. that speech that he gave was widely decried by many rights organizations as being racist. do you feel the pious i it is in some way responsible for the increase in anti migration sentiment and the racial tensions that we've seen explode over the course of the past few weeks to the lash was searching the lids and by the now in some a speech by president coast agents february, when he exactly involves the great replacement conspiracy theory. but this is also speaking to underlying and select sentiments and conditions society. and we've also seen them in recent months and weeks. other tunisia and politicians and the

official also putting fire and gas to the fire with different kinds of the situations when they goods is migraines in the cause of for instance, they are spreading to the closest or they are criminals. so he in fact ignited the fire, but it has been brewing in the country and also brewing because of a lack of political action. i mean, uh, it looks like, you know, you want to jump in, so i'm going to give you that chance. but what do you say i did those words that we heard from present value to help stoke a lot of the racial tensions that we're seeing right now. and what is the overall public sentiment when it comes to migrants into needs are right now from the public as well. thank you. i think there, there was a strong blinking between what the, what happened in february that statement a legit tool. lots of conspiracy theories about media runs a lot of responsibility to towards immigration. now people

generally believe that immigration is an issue, then they call them equal issue. people believe that they don't have a job or the little or i've heard people saying um when i was doing interviews in sikes about the saying that the food food shortages are because of the migraines that they're here. but the churches are everywhere. and she knew that every single economical issue that hasn't been has been use, i guess make migraines. and this is also because we've been living in a constant conspiracy theory situation in the last 2 years. a lot of political actors, including president by side, the government played uh the conspiracy cards. whenever they, they had the chance, misled stool. lots of the fake news, a lot of informations that were not verified and that were used

to accuse migraines of everything. i mean, you mentioned speaking to people on the ground in fox and i want to ask you about that even before what's going on right now. what were conditions like for the migrants who had gotten to as facts and who were trying to use fox as a departure point going forward as well? there was, there was 2 things to take into account to the migraines. i came to spikes and stayed there. and lived there and worked, there was no further objective to go to europe. and um, from what they've told me, racism was always 0 of course discrimination was always here. of course we said that changes. yeah. uh, very had had difficulties to deal with the racism and to put the legal framework on the police force balls through wrestle discrimination and legal measuring migrants

that we're hoping to get to europe. i haven't been in very difficult situation as in the past years, but what changed, what's put the targets on their back is the statement of february, because it takes you to choose them of trying to alternatives and demographic of being responsible for the crimes and choose the etc, misled to people um to people focusing on them to meet the focusing on every single crime that can be committed by a blessed person into media and having long debates and weeks of the media discussions about immigration, which never happened before. lauren, i saw you react in some what i mean was saying there and it looked like you wanted to jump in, so please go ahead. oh, just just but i just that i absolutely agree that unfortunately it's, it's black africans, uh, west and central african. but you know, not to engage in african migraines and asylum seekers who are receiving the blame

for these for these issues. unfortunately, it's easy to scape goat people who, who can be marginalized quite easily, but that's in the, the solution is more complicated than that. will we see you in workers, agencies be able to get access to these migrants and help them anytime soon? i i certainly hope so. it would be absolutely in human if, if neither government on either side allowed a aiden access because we have records. but even the children are, are having to drink sea water for lack of sufficient water that people are really hungry, have they don't have enough food. and so it really, it's, it's incumbent on the teenage and governments as the responsible party here to allow humanitarian aid to, to get in. and at least at minimum, provide medical care and food and water to these people which and for children have them. um, tanisha is under pressure by europe to stop migrants from leaving sparks. and that's become, as we said before, in this program,

a major departure point for migrants. the you is also propose giving to need a $1000000000.00 a package, a presence i, it has said that tunisia would not be a border guard for europe. what role is all of that playing in this to its thing? uh, a huge essential role and ensure that the customer aid has said that the teacher will not turn into your school to go or police man, but in reality, they are already because for years to need your has been receiving millions and millions of years ago from the you to manage the migration to bolstering their national guard, the boarders, and the coast guards, and, and also at the same time, not putting in place any migration policy or framework to govern the presence of all the migrants. thousands of migrants in the country that are either been intercepted by the canadian coast guard and brought back to the country or,

or any residing there. and, and this leaves, again, as of already been mentioned as thousands of people stranded in a state of informality. and marginalization and are able to regularize those dates as unable to access the form of labor market. and, and this is why we're seeing people moving on the edges of, of society. and, you know, we're talking right now about what's going on right at this moment. but this has been going on for some time now. i'm going to 2018. i went on a reporting trip two's ours east and the southeast of tunisia. at that time, there were hundreds of bodies that were being found on the beach every day. these were migrants and asylum seekers and refugees who had tried to leave libya. they drowned in the mediterranean, their bodies were washing up into ours east. i met a man there, a volunteer for the red crescent. he was, he was essentially raising money to bury these migrants because he wanted to give

them some dignity and death. and the reason i bring this up is because, sadly, this situation only seems to get worse. does it not? that is true. and again, i see it repeating myself, it comes back to the non and migration policy from the sinews, inside the reluctance to reform any and migration uh or asylum systems in the country of the, or from becoming a european hotspots. and the valid here as well. because the, the european part is continuing to pressure to, uh, make or transform tunisians is this new a so called safe 3rd country, which we are witnessing and seeing now is, is not the case. and so there's this ongoing negotiation between tunisia and the you in, in an obvious, asymmetric power relation, about migration. so while they are going bolstering there, uh, you know,

border control, with support from the new internal migration policy has been left on the back burner. and that's why we haven't seen any changes. i mean, um, whatever happens between the you in to needs or the fact of the matter is that to me is you're right now is facing a political crisis. and it's also facing economic collapse. how does the country move forward at this stage a? well, that's the interesting question is that as we mentioned, uh, the government to refuse to just to kind of refuse the deal with europe, saying that we won't, we won't do border control for europe. but um, it's the only thing that the government can negotiate on. it's the only way to convince father, right leaders such as maloney or, or the prime minister to vouch for news. yeah. and to vote for to the, during the negotiations. um, however,

the economical um crisis has been going on for you for years now what this uh new is a chain is uh is incapable. and the reason is the last 2 years to choose to form alliances with other countries, builds on economic interest. and now we are seeing a lenses that are based on the political ideology and the fact that um, the change is align with italy. um, based on the um the that some of them wants uh, immigrant migrants and which is which, which is sad in a way because it, it, it was never, it was never a major issue in choose. uh, it became one and it became um, a major, major subject because we chose to blame migraines for all power economical issues.

i mean, let me also ask you, you know, there are groups that are saying that what has gone on in, in fox and expulsion of migrants may constitute a violation of international law. is there any contingent of the government entities that is worried that this might actually be an international law violation and the teenager could face rep, percussion is because of that. well, if, if remember what's happened in february of 2 by side did that statements? uh what happens um was that every blank person engine is yeah. was threatened to get to evicted from it from his own to get fired from his job because people were feeling that the governments will come for them. what is happening right now is that the people themselves are attacking black people in sex. um, what do also happening right now from what i've heard today of sources. tell me that even public trans transport uh is now being checked. uh every

day to see if there's, there's a black people on the, on the mountains, migrants. and uh, if there is, um, the, the agents were also get sanctions. there is really um which ones are we going on right now? it is 6 uh ends. yes. that's cool. that can be and definitely is a violation of violation of human rights. so relation of international law, but i don't think the government is i don't think the government's main goal is to respect international law. a lower and i saw that you wanted to jump and go ahead. yes, i would absolutely agree that this is a violation of international why it's not a maybe it's a certain way because as i mentioned, people are being arbitrarily detained. interested with that is not following a legal process, and they are being expelled in, in mass groups of hundreds. and this is called collective expulsion or mass

explosion, which is, which is prohibited under, under international efforts. specifically, african regional, international human rights law prohibits mass expulsions linked to a racial or ethnic or national groups, which is exactly what's happening here. and i think that you certainly as others types of rightly mentioned that you also need to consider how is it, how is it staff is impacting the outcome, care of what plays out, i think offering money, but then sort of making it contingent on migration control and placing such a heavy emphasis on that is not going to solve the problems and that conditionality needs to be removed from any further uh, from any further offering aid on the east part. lauren, is it not a fact that no matter what policies countries try to put in place to curb migration no matter what deals are made, people who are desperate to escape war and poverty. people who are trying to provide a better and more secure life for themselves. and for their families are going to

attempt to take these journeys no matter how desperate they are is that not the case. yes. and, and that, that brings back to the, the clause, the drivers of migration and peoples countries of origin, which are certainly a much better place, place to focus, focus efforts and trying to address, you know, issues, human rights violations, political violations, issues that push people to free in the 1st place and as long as there are no, there are institutions, regular pathways for migration to countries of safety. people will try these a regular, dangerous routes. i've spoken to people who try it again and again because they are desperate and there is no legal pathway available to them. and so that is another thing that, that, that, that you can do that will actually help is expand legal pathways and make them accessible to people who might not have the money or the sponsors or the contacts to go through certain certain channels for be that. but learn if i could just ask

one more question, do you expect that, that you would actually try to do that? it has in fact in it's my migration management funding efforts with, with africa in many different countries. part of if you look at the project that they're actually implementing, such as that were funded by that you trust sun for africa and all these things they have. there are multi pronged and part of it does include, especially in recent recent funding or recent funding efforts. do include a focus on legal pathways and expanding them, but it is a relatively minor focus. if you look at these documents, they also talk about increasing, you know, the capacity of border control and the, and controlling migration and, and the, the coast guard and the security forces as well. so to me it's, it's really a problem matic, but the emphasis is is more on secure activation, then it really is on the solutions so that there are some efforts,

but definitely more can be done. i have them from your perspective, what needs to be done to improve the situation. i mean, are there concrete steps that could actually be taken right now, and is there political will power to take those steps? yes sir, that's the lowest thing for it in question. um, i think in foliage in using case it is the central key issue is the absence of an official migration policy and asylum law. and without that, we will continue to see these tensions coming in in waves and clashes between 2 museums and migraines again and, and from the use side, august vs as just on the lines of by lower and is that's an increased focus on safe and legal pathways. is one way of doing it and, and also we know from research very clear that increasing border control does not stop migration. it, in fact only makes it more dangerous because it pushes people to go take more

longer routes and increase use of smuggling or criminal networks. so it's an approach that is june to fail. and, and this is why it is important that this security station in migration is, is, is an issue that, that needs to be discussed. and from the use side, it's really important. i mean, they've been signed them so far and we've seen it before in cases also in, in february. so it's really crucial that the, you steps up and, and push put pressure on. she needs you to before his policy, but also to hold back on on more security position as well. and as we heard it and consumers report earlier, the migrants and, and the they asylum seekers that are stuck in this no man's land between 2 ege and libya. they're looking for any way out right now, but in the last few years we've repeatedly seen more and more members of the

international community essentially turn their backs on migrants on refugees, on people who are stuck in really dire in desperate situations. i'm. is anybody going to step in to help? yeah, and that's and that is a really the sides reality of when i did my field work continues as well, especially in the southern part where you haven't any of these issues. and also my friends in the asylum seekers from leave you, you and hcr in iowa will presence in, in senior, were caught severely in their funding. um, so that you went in saturday and infrastructure is, is really under pressure as well. and, and this is also another issue uh who will be there to help and who will be there to, to support the migraines. um i originally also just spoke to some of the migraines i know and, and their insurance right now, but they are fearful for what's happening and sparks and now beginning to think,

where should we go next? but they know they can go to old jerry or you have mass, you put stations there as well. it can go to libya, you have a crisis in its own that's too dangerous. so for me to meet again, the mediterranean becomes the only last desperate solution. i mean, we only have a couple of minutes left, but i saw you nodding along to them. what i found was sitting there and it looks like you want to jump in. so please go ahead. it was just uh, i was just agreeing with what has been said and i think that's what she needs it needs to do is to prosecute anyone or harassed or who attacks migraines in the past few days because i think that's the also an important issue. um, what is going on is horrible and you mean, but besides you, the choosing people, not the only security forces that they're, that they're deporting. people can, using people are becoming aggressive and hateful towards the black people. engineers. yeah, it's want towards migrants. this is

a very dangerous situation for them, and i wish we could do liquids take this seriously. and i seriously come to them because those that when i try my grades, sorry to interrupt, i'll let you finish in a 2nd. but i just want to add that there have been reports out there that there are groups of juniors and people who are actually very humanely and trying to help these migrants that are stuck in this terrible situation. yes, of course. and the to the, to the unfortunate organ amazing were but um, uh i, i'd like to see the sanctions against the people who i talked uh, the migraines and black people. because if we let this go unpunished, i think it will only lead to more violence. i think it will only need 2 more questions um 4 years ago. uh, when we had a problem, its democratic problem is uh can you get the phone to the law against racism and the symbolically. oh, that's only that too. um. it should to, to us,

to an image that's we are trying to fight against racism, but somebody not be loved, this legal framework respected. but um, now we are having people being a tech, just because they're black and, and that's the, the, the thing to do is young needs to come then quickly. all right, well, we have run out of time, so we're gonna have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guests, lawrence seibert, i mean, as you'll see and have them. she'll gladly and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just you or dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash age and sad story. you can also, during the conversation on twitter handle is at a great inside store for me and how many enrollment whole team here, bye for now, the

the mental disease accounts for 15 percent. that's the

the money inside indo here, top stories on al jazeera, tennessee, and libya as foreign ministers have spoken to discuss 1200 black african migrants left stranded on that board as by tennessee and police all were rounded up into his ear and busts to the border libyan board of gods are refusing to let them in human rights watch accuses to miss he is violating international monic. traina has moved from the city of the war. a naval libyan board of woodson is here. i cannot express

in words how dire the situation is. i mean from what we saw.