well disclose the explosion of loss and culture. intellectuals were building new dreams and the idea is because the revolutions of the 1960 is when the political parts of the mind for music to tv, the poetry of protest and revolution make for making the 60s in the arab culture. oh no jews here. your frame is to be supplied with plus the ball is by the us. that's the spice have found by many countries and most later members, the united nation. so such weapons are against humanitarian law because the indiscriminate us. so what's behind the us decision? this is inside story, the are welcome to the program. i'm adrian instead of going full is a dirty business,

but the decision by the us to supply cluster bombs to ukraine has crossed the line that many of its nato allies wouldn't. the u. n says the weapons breach international humanitarian law, the us says it has no option but to send them to ukraine because it's running as of conventional munitions, both the cues rush out of using cluster bombs in the wall. so why is the us doing this now? we'll be discussing it without guests in just a moment, but 1st a report from laura com. these costa bones are considered so dangerous, living funds by more than 120 countries. but the us says they'll be included in a new military aid package to ukraine. need to join the convention funding. they use. no, his russia is worn out. so just how dangerous all day. the missile countess does contain hundreds of smaller homes that spread out in the this means they are indiscriminate and can have

a wide spread. i'm devastating impact. the international committee of the red cross says as many as 40 percent of the bullets fail to designate and compose the threats to civilians. decade slay to human rights watch accuses ukraine and russia of killing civilians with cost to weapons. the problem with cost to munitions is does rate because these munitions dropped large numbers of what are our bob let's, depending on how they land. some of them don't go off with these prime ministers soon. i didn't directly criticized president job binding, but did say the person does not support the use of the weapons in general. here, k is signature, e to a convention, which prohibits the production or use of cluster munitions and discourages that use . the u. k has itself been criticized for sending other weapons. the can cause loss of environmental damage and serious illness. to people long off to the was it ended

in march she confirmed with provide all the piercing rounds that contains depleted uranium thus used by the us in a rock in the 1st gulf full 32 years ago. they've left the legacy of kansas and illnesses among people that i have in other countries, bones point a to the international. you can watch to a b, i a, a, a says a could be a risk. the people who handled fragments of depleted uranium on the 2019 study and the general environmental pollution link. the use a shelf in the war to rock, to a sharp rise bus to fax and come to the us says it must send cost to bones. now because ukraine is running out of conventional weapons, but even some health representatives and biden's democratic policy have criticized the decision, saying the weapons will kill civilians and leave the us unable to multiply the high moral ground to the war, fight the tactics it previously accused russia does use a nor holds the inside store, reach out to 0. well, let's take

a look at the legacy left by cluster bombs. the united nation says that in the last year it finalized the account 2021. it recorded at least 360 casualties globally. much traffic is, are expected when the boy ukraine is included. in the 1st 6 months of the conflict, $215.00 civilians were killed on $474.00 injured by cost of weapons. the cost of mediation, monica used by the u. n. shows that most victims of cluster bombs are civilians. in 2020, it says they made up all casualties of such weapons worldwide that you really call for will casualties with children. but the age was no. costa. well, when women and girls among the victims were people in countries where it was ended some years ago, such as cambodia, los, and iraq let's bring it out. guess then for today is discussion for washington dc. we're joined by william

taylor, executive vice president of the us institute of peace at a full, the us on best of the, to ukraine from moscow. dimitri by the editor at in allstate, internet media projects, and also joining us from washington, dc. sorry, a go, washington director of human rights watchable. welcome to you. we'll. let's start with you 1st that you are in favor of the transfer of these weapons to ukraine. as i understand it. why is that? when i'm in favor of ukrainians. a big being victorious over the russians. the russians have invaded their country. i'm in favor of ukrainians, having the ability to stop the russian invasion. i'm in favor of united states supporting ukraine and us attempt to stop the russian invasion. and the rest of nato is joining in that effort. so i'm in favor of ukrainian victory. it turns

out, as you just reported, that the way that the ukrainians can move to victory goes through our tower. they need our tower. and it turns out again, as you reported that the artillery rounds, the stocks both in ukraine and is united states are running out that they are running out. we are running out ukrainians are running out of the unit. terry, artillery weapons munition that is not in foster bottom. so the only thing that we have left to provide the ukrainians to stop the russian invasion and to push the russians out of the country out of the brain. are these comfortable? no one likes this. no one is comfortable with this decision, but if the decision is to allow the russians to overrun ukraine, which they have said they want to do,

this is what the russians are after is to destroy the ukraine. wipe it off the map . adrian, this is what they've said. if that's the choice, then we have to provide these, well, i just want to play with a clip of white house press secretary jen saki speaking in the, the early days of the war about customizations. here's where she said, no legal costs are bombs and being used by the russians. if that's true, what is the next step of this and ministration that is there a red line for how much will be tolerated against civilians in this a man or that's the legal potentially it is, it would be, i don't have any confirmation of that. we have seen the reports if, if that were true, it would potentially be a work crime when it may have the potential use of cluster munitions in ukraine. is that by russia is a war crime. the insinuation here is the rules apply to others and not

to the us and its allies. rules apply to everyone, adrian, you're no doubt about that. all the rules apply to us, the ukrainians to the russians and everyone. there's no doubt about that. the question is, how to stop this even legal, immoral invasion by the russians of ukraine. and if the only choice is to use these weapons that have been banned by some countries, but not others. if that's the only choice, then i think we have no, it's a moral choice. it's a moral choice to support the ukrainians in their defense against the russian regression demitra, babich and moscow. what do you make and what are your thoughts so far? well, let's get the fact straight 1st, there was a human rights. what the report, i think back in the early 2015 may be within late 2014, that the ukrainian troops used to gloss to weapons and it was very well document

that then confirmed there were 200 sports people on the ground who interviewed the victims who showed the places where the cost of blocks for used properties that were weighed 30 ports of the use of cost of us by russia bought the 1st. i didn't see them. i mean, i didn't see them uh or in, in the international news reports. there was a, if they were, they were a lot of was documented. and also let me remind you that the in 20142015 these of our north russian troops who participated in the war that started there at north, in 2022 about these where uh then we'll go in search of the so called pro russian a separate or just us uh, the key of government you pulled them. uh, let me again remind you that the government didn't give came out to bottle offense to a wireless cool in february of 2014. so ukraine as far as i remember,

denied using the last 2 weapons in ross and united choosing less to weapons. so we have these situations here when our ukraine definitely used glocks to weapons. roxanne probably allow the united states once you're going to use glass to weapons on massive scale. that's terrible. i don't want to whitewash the russian government . there is a big discussion going on in russia where that it was bought, that you know, to, to get involved in an all out. well, you know, that will stop the bone being and the shading or don't boss, which continued for 8 years. but certainly, if this is not the way to stop the wireless by a tardy saying, these kinds of just weapons, it's like, i get to make sure i'm against using that. that's using the term eco y, as in the chance has been the impoverished you utilize the job of the size. i was going to be by using chemical weapons. you know? yeah, i just got to ask you to retrieve it to make sure i was going to ask you to us as

cross on it. if, if you cry and uses these weapons supplied by the us, does it cost on a red line? for russia, is it, would it be then, do you think be justified in, in responding in kind? does it give russia to use a to, to, does it give brush or a, an excuse to use weapons that are other weapons, other kinds of weapons sort of band for humanitarian reasons. as uh, well you said that uh, and even though no one is the russian government set so far, uh, and you know, on that subject, i think that will be a logical consequence. i don't think the resolved will be the ukraine unami pushing the russians out of their land. you know, let me remind you of the media. so people use their best and as their wives with russia in the last 8 years, same crime here in don't ask, in lieu gods, these are russian people speaking russian and they will not become ukrainian in future. so if they were great in government returns to control over,

they started just as a going to be a huge human tragedy. what is going on now is also human tried to do by pressure. we will not give up those stairs. if you bring us used bosco weapons rocks, you may also use some very destructive weapons, not necessarily new ones, but some very destructive weapons in order to protect the people who roderick and see. this is citizens, the people living in the, in the, in bone. you have now the people living in the building castle next to great music . i see the references on file, so every single used to protect them from across the street. okay, so sir, i'm sorry to keep you waiting. i'll be with you in just a moment because i know you've got lots to say, but i just want to give william the rise of reply. that way. where is the threat to the people who are you crying from? from russia, it's not as life threatening to use it as, as the uses of cluster munitions. adrian, the read to the people of ukraine from russia is existential. literally, the russian government president pulls and it has said that there is no such thing

as ukraine. he wants to was ukraine off of a map. so yes, there is a direct threat to ukraine. ukrainian citizen is ukraine civilians. we agree about the needing to protect civilians. everyone agrees about the need to protect civilians. it is, it's ukrainian civilians that have been killed by russian indiscriminate attacks. ok. not just by own cluster bombs. so, so yes, there is an ex, essential threat to ukraine from russia in this invasion is recognized by the world . sorry, i go. what's the human rights watch this position on this? sure, thanks for having me. and let me just say, i deeply respect ambassador taylor and i agree with most of the things that he has said today, except that cluster munitions are going to make the difference in this conflict that has not been proven. it is very hard to see exactly the military utility,

because the pentagon has not shared its data either on gun rates or the effectiveness of these weapons against the russian threats. and there are 2 big problems that i see. one is humanitarian. there is no way to make these weapons harmless, absolutely no way, and we have already documented ukrainians using cluster munitions. we just put out our findings earlier this week that civilians ukrainian civilians have already been killed by the ukrainians, using cost through munitions. again, there is no way to make these harmless and 2nd, there is a global norm being broken here. the majority of the nation of the world's nations have bad these weapons specifically because they are too dangerous for the battlefield. i am worried both about what is going to happen in ukraine and what is going to happen on this slippery slope for conflict in the future. so other, any circumstances that would justify the use of cross commissions and you, if you,

i don't, i don't believe so. they are in shortly indiscriminate. and this argument that russia is using cluster munitions with a very high done rate. you know, the argument that ukraine should use, cluster munitions, as well as a race to the bottom. and i am very concerned about that, including for and you, cranny and civilians. they continued to kill and pollute, often years after they've been deployed, regardless of which side prevails. in this conflict, someone is going to have to deal with a long term human and environmental impact, or leave large tracts of land unusable. i mean, who's, who's like, go to pay it to, i mean, who is responsible for clearing up in the united states is the largest donor to uh, do you mind the efforts around the world? and because it used cluster munitions and anti personnel landlines in various places. around the world, it's giving a lot of money already because of the exxon exploded ordinance. these does that are all over you. credit is $73000000000.00 to clean them up. that is without the u. s

. cluster munitions being set. so this is going to be a massive, expensive cleanup effort. and president biden is going to have to address this when he goes to vienna and talks with the european nations about reconstruction, rebuilding and the money that it's going to take to clean these up and rest of the techno. and i know you want to come in, the us dropped an estimated 260000000 trusted munitions in loss between 19641973. so far, fewer than 400000 not point 47 percent have been cleared and at least 11000 people have been killed according to which has these weapons pose a fault race, a threat to civilian this when they do their intended ministry targets. don't think there's a reason why so many nations refused to use them. the adrian again, no one wants to use these weapons. every one would like to have the regular of the unitary weapons, a unitary ammunition for the our towers. there's no doubt i don't dispute or anything the server just said or that you'll just send. and you asked about the

clean up. yes that's there will have to be played off. yes, the unexploded ordnance you will have to be cleaned up. it turns out adrian, as you well know, that the mining that the russians have done is extensive up and down the line. the estimates are 10000000 minds, not any personnel, much somebody for personal mind, but mostly anti tank minds. they are the about 10000000 up and down the line in ukraine, but the russians are planted. they'll all have to be dug up. they'll all have to be d, v if you and you're exactly right. the united states as preparing. so it has already provided and has provided the d mining capabilities we will provide more, i'm sure the gradients are working on d mining capabilities. they're going to have to be cleaned up all of those $10000000.00 and the tank mind up and down the line are going to have to be an at the same time that they're planning up the any tank minds and defusing them. they

will be cleaning up the, the costs of munitions, the dogs that are still there, by the way, the done rate of the russian mines, the russian, a cluster mind fussing munitions is in a 30 to 40 percent range, whereas the dog rate, according to the defense department is one to 3 percent so that they will still have to be cleaned up. no one likes these weapons, no one likes. does that munition would it be better if we didn't have to use them? but if the choice is allowing the russians to run over your brain and take it over the best that, that's the danger disability is that the danger to do we brand new civilian dmitri rusher says the transfer these plus the munitions to ukraine. smacks of desperation of what does it tell us about the conflict itself. the fact that, as we heard from a best a tell you, the ukraine is running out of the conventional military weapon, raised munition and which side uh,

if it either is able to gain some sort of advantage militarily as well. i think the best i knew from here would be a compromise. unfortunately, it's the united states and the, the european union who don't want to compromise a single grade. they. so she prepped the negotiations, so that's what went on in east on will last year. even in march and we were very close to a compromise with ukraine. it did not presuppose russia around, you know, william green or wife and ukraine. uh, off the map suddenly which i never said a foot and said that the if you wanted to make your brain secure, what actually if you want, if you're going to be the minute drive and do not support this is the exact quote. he didn't want to destroy your brain as a country. he probably means that he wants to destroy either your brain and reveal, even though he didn't go as far as saying that as for the future as for the

perspective so, well, let me tell you that of course it's a sign on the street because the united states, why does this uh, pre keep it that uh, sending us made across the web store the congress. there was no waiver, all the, all these pretty patient by the congress. so if we believe the washington post, for example, president bar them is in fact uh, somehow uh, maybe even uh, making an extensive use of his presidential powers. to me, these shows that tonight the space has become and i don't want to go steve, just like the nazi of the corporate. just i know what you go states in the past. we know that in to 33 in states, i do. what would your goal was before the war? the main thing for the alternative or like georgia, which is no rain, so they're not the states and that you were being union. you still have your brain . s a think that they don't care about the losses. they don't care about you bringing people, they want your brain to win as the say. so that's why the radio to bend the

rules to, i'm sorry, breach the loss, to send the most destructive weapons state. just want to see the side when. as for our share of cost, well, very, very unhappy about these but very on said about the need to put the land mines a certainly what didn't present what did the plan that when he stopped at the so called me to get the reason you know, the family last year, because sort of way the we will have to clean it up because there are, after all, mostly russian, people leaving an east and you green. and if you read the united states press, it recognizes this back in the night, just back of the 2000 only. now they keep saying that your brain is such a separate country built in different from russia. it has a completely different identities. you know, we have a joint identity in many ways, and we will have to clean the top our cells in future. that's very unfortunate because as you rightly said, gloss to weapons are very dangerous. they keep exposing,

they keep cheating people. years after they have been used on is huge. whatever level it's shorter inc. it's, it's up to a theme for a different police simplex human rights, which on these occasions, not the sample cost of us do brain and for break even both rushing. okay. but any use of cost of weapons and this what i want to bring in sir, if human rights watch. uh, once again, as we start at the beginning of the program will, is a dirty business center. and those as be held in our report depleted uranium used by the us and the rock in iraq and 1st gulf war uh 32 years ago has left the legacy of kansas and illnesses among people that didn't other countries bombed by nato, ukraine's also been using british supplied weapons that contain depleted uranium is human rights watch concerned that the people of the border region in ukraine and russia will suffer in the same way as people in iraq have done. and we don't have any research on depleted uranium at the moment so we can get into that

a little bit later. let me just make 2 quick comments about what's been said. first president binding actually made this decision and signed a waiver completely within the rule of law within the united states. it's a shame that he did because congress thought that these weapons were far too dangerous to send anywhere and made a prohibition against transferring them to any weapon. president biden within the law, signed a waiver. and it basically, just as we're going to prohibit these except when we really need them. and i think that that's really unfortunate. i also just want to go to this done rate because everyone is talking about what the pentagon has reported about the gun rate. we actually have human rights watch has done a bunch of research and has pentagon reports going back to the, to thousands. they actually have a 14 percent done rate on these very weapons. now perhaps there are variance that the pentagon is looking at, but they have not provided any data. so within our democracy, there is no transparency about where these numbers are coming from. and so to

repeat them that there was a 1.5 percent on rate, a $2.00. we're hearing these variations. every answer is different. where, where they tested on what kind of ground and what kind of circumstances we're not getting any of those answers. and i think that that is a real problem in this case. ok, i best of the time that we might just put a very quick forward from you if you, if you want to. i give them the do force in any rock about this use of depleted uranium. then most times of nature have signed up to this international panel trust to munitions now to the secretary general. i am still in the book said that the, the alliance didn't have a full position on the use on the baffle field. and that the decision on that you should be down to individual countries. i mean, what are we to make up that the best? no unity among other lines. so the use of width is that many members find a bar and, and a pledge not to use secure general's exactly right. they know what they know as an, as an organization doesn't decide on weapons,

individual countries. individual members do, we've not heard any condemnation from nato members of this decision. why? because they recognize it's a hard decision. they recognize it, that they don't like these weapons. we don't like these weapons, the congress doesn't like these weapons. the defense department doesn't like these weapons, but they all recognize that the alternative that is no artillery round for the ukrainians and so on. acceptable is unacceptable, morally, militarily, politically, it makes no, it makes no sense to have the premiums run out of weapons and not be able to defend themselves against the russians that are in bathing their country. so the nature of the nato members, they don't like it. we don't like it however they recognize and they, they buy their statements. they recognize that as an individual decision by the american sheriffs. exactly right. the president may use the waiver that's in the law. he doesn't like it, he's present bite and said he doesn't like this of this decision. but again,

if the, if the decision, if the alternative is to let the russians overrun the ukraine, is he's not gonna let that happen. okay, and we've got a, we've got about a minute left. is there anything you want to say about that the use of depleted uranium? i know we're talking about cluster munitions, but the, the, the use of depleted uranium in that region of the world right now. i have nothing to add to what you what sir, is that okay, all right, make sure you will leave the date that the last which to you then bear in mind, i've got about a minute left on the program. so i need you to give me a fairly concise onset on what you've heard and from a uh, washington guest. and the last few moments to uh well i, i would just say that it looks uh, our opponents uh, that when you to use glass wi fi, the, when you do use depleted uranium. how come there for peace? how comes the defendant democracy, by such means, the same goal was about the breaking down. if they destroyed monuments,

if they can. so, for the days, if they destroy li engine, maybe they are the device. maybe they all could buy these country where they change order traditions. all of the rules may be not off, but they are that there's a that i'm afraid we're going to have to write it as always on inside story. even though what i'd, i'd love to give the rights of reply, that's what even sarah, in, in washington and i'm afraid time is against us when use weights for no one on that . and that's next. thank you all for being with us, william taylor, dimitri babich. and sarah, you go and thank you for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again at any time by going to the website of elders 0. don't com for further discussion on this issue. join us on our facebook page, you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside start at story. i have a course. the conversation continues on twitter. i'll handle it a inside story from me, adrian. instead of going on the same here. and though,

thanks for being with us, we'll see you again, bye for now the the, what we do, and i'll just, sarah, is try to find those 2 stories and he's the people who allow us into their lives, dignity. and do you mind if you need the opium hours to correct and call me this travel only to be disappear? of families. tragedy entwined with a violent chapter country's history. what do you see to say, is that going to be my blood? that was to a knife long search for answers and

close finding salon. witness on out to 0 to mom and boy in most you something space shawna which is nice within the team, make it a unique eco system. just being hosted by human activity on a number of fronts when to run a test of intensive farming, that comes too much the how do you take size and the fact is devastating at the classroom at the university of most yeah, marine biologist. i mean, it has just team 3 different species and needs to maintain events with 48000 c homes 520212000 tremaine is create extraordinary. this is what is one of the house is not ensuring that no one can continue to let things change

future generations to the animals. that once drives to the mama. no, we don't exist. and this aquarium, the hello, i'm emily anglin, indo hobbies at the top stories on al jazeera, tennessee, as president guy said, has rejected criticism over the mistreatment of black african migrants and refugees . 700 people are being left stranded without food or water on the portal with libya, they were relocated after protest following the king killing of attorneys in policeman. malik train that has spoken to my friends from the libyan side of the border with 2 e's. yes. this whitestone says libya just a few meters away on the other side is too easy in territory. and now we have to be really careful not to call.