i'm charles don. the rate of 400 sites dramatize the podcast from i'll just here to this season, re here from some of history's dogs notable women, unconventional and extraordinary office. i am free that god of the communist revolution of everyone in china, new my state. you've heard all of them power it's time you have from these and 6 of hindsight is out now subscribe. wherever you listen to pop, cast a new frame is to be supplied with cluster bombs by the us. that's the spies are found by many countries, and most later amenities the united nation. so such weapons are against humanitarian law because the indiscriminate us. so what's behind the us decision? this is inside story. the

are welcome to the program. i'm adrian for the golden rule is a dirty business, but the decision by the us to supply cluster bombs to ukraine has crossed the line that many of its nato allies wouldn't. the u. n says the weapons breach international humanitarian law. the us says it has no option but to send them to ukraine because it's running as have conventional munitions, both the cues rush out of using cluster bombs in the wall. so why is the us doing this now? we'll be discussing it without guests in just a moment, but 1st a report from laura com. these costa booms are considered so dangerous, living funds by more than 120 countries. but the us, us, that'd be included in a new military aid package to ukraine. need to join the convention funding. they use know his russia for now.

so just how dangerous all day. the missile countess does contain hundreds of smaller homes that spread out in the this means they are indiscriminate and can have a wide spread. i'm devastating impact. the international committee of the red cross says as many as 40 percent of the bullets fail to designate and compose the threats to civilians. decades late to human rights watch accuses ukraine and russia of killing civilians with cost to weapons. the problem with close to munitions is does rate because these munitions dropped large numbers of what are our bob let's, depending on how they land, some of them don't go off british prime ministers soon. i didn't directly quit fights. president j binding, but did say the person does not support the use of the weapons in general. the here, k is signature, e to a convention which prohibits the production or use of cluster munitions and discourages that use. the u. k has itself been criticized for sending other weapons

. the can cause loss of environmental damage and serious illness to people long off to the was event. in march, she confirmed with provide all the piercing rounds that contains depleted uranium thus used by the us in a rock in the 1st go full 32 years ago. they've left the legacy of kansas and illnesses among people that i have in other countries. bones point a to the international you can watch to a, b, i a, a says a could be a risk. the people who handled fragments of depleted uranium on the 2019 study and the general environmental pollution link. the use a shelf in the war to rock to a sharp rise bus defects and come to the us says that most send cost to bones know because you crave is running out of conventional weapons. but even some house representative and biden's democratic policy have criticized the decision, saying the weapons will kill civilians and leave the us unable to multiply the high

moral ground to the war by adopting tactics. it previously accused russia. as you say, nora holds the inside story. i'll just, sarah. well, let's take a look at the legacy left by cluster bombs. the united nation says that in the last year it finalized the account 2021. it recorded at least 360 casualties globally. much traffic is, are expected when the boy ukraine is included. in the 1st 6 months of the conflict, $215.00 civilians were killed on $474.00 injured by cost of weapons. the cost of mediation, monica used by the u. n. shows that most victims of cluster bombs are civilians. in 2020, it says they made up all casualties of such weapons worldwide. that you really call from casualties with children. with the age was known a costa well when women and girls among the victims were people in countries where it was ended some years ago, such as cambodia, los,

and iraq. let's bring it out. guess then for today is discussion for washington dc. we're joined by william taylor, executive vice president of the us institute of peace out of full the us on baset, a to ukraine from moscow. dimitri by the editor at in allstate, internet media projects, and also joining us from washington, dc. sorry, a go, washington director of human rights. watch a welcome to you. we'll. let's start with you 1st that you are in favor of the transfer of these weapons to ukraine. as i understand it. why is that? when i'm in favor of ukrainians. a big being victorious over the russians. the russians have invaded their country. i'm in favor of ukrainians, having the ability to stop the russian invasion. i'm in favor of united states

supporting ukraine in us, attempt to stop the russian invasion, and the rest of nato is joining in that effort. so i'm in favor of ukrainian victory. it turns out, as you just reported, that the way that the ukrainians can move to victory goes through our tower. they need our tower. and it turns out again, as you reported that the artillery rounds, the stocks both in your brain and if not it states are running out that they are running out. we are running out ukrainians are running out of the unit. terry, artillery weapons amunition. that is not in foster bottom. so the only thing that we have left to provide the ukrainians to stop the russian invasion and to push the russians out of the country out of your brain. are these comfortable? no one likes this. no one is comfortable with this decision,

but if the decision is to allow the russians to overrun ukraine, which they have said they want to do, this is what the russians are after is to destroy the ukraine. wipe it off the map . adrian, this is what they've said. if that's the choice, then we have to provide these, well, i just want to play it when he made a trip of white house press secretary jen, saki speaking in the, the early days of the war about cluster munitions. here's where she said, no legal costs are bombs being used by the russian. if that's true, what is the next step of this administration? is there a red line for how much will be tolerated against billions in this a man or that's the legal potentially it is, it would be, i don't have any confirmation of that. we have seen the reports. if, if that were true, it would potentially be a work crime when it may have the potential use of cluster munitions in ukraine. is

that by russia is a war crime. the insinuation here is the rules apply to others and not to the us and its allies. rules apply to everyone, adrian, you're no doubt about that. all the rules apply to us, the ukrainians to the russians and everyone. there's no doubt about that. the question is, how to stop this even legal in moral invasion by the russians of ukraine. and if the only choice is to use these weapons that have been banned by some countries, but not others. if that's the only choice, then i think we have known as a moral choice as a moral choice to support the ukrainians in their defense against the russian regression demitra, babich and moscow. what do you make of what you've heard so far? well, let's get the fact straight 1st, there was a human rights. what the report, i think back in the early 2015 may be within late 2014,

that the ukrainian troops used to gloss to weapons and it was very well document that then confirmed there were 200 sports people on the ground who interviewed the victims who showed the places where the cost of blocks for used properties that were weighed 30 ports of the use of cost of us by russia bought the 1st. i didn't see them. i mean, i didn't see them uh or in, in the international news reports. there was a, if they were, they were a lot of was documented. and also let me remind you that the in 20142015 these of our north drops and troops who participated in the war that started there at north, in 2022 about these where uh then we'll go in search of the so called pro russian a separate or just us uh, the key of government you pulled them. uh, let me again remind you that the government didn't give came out to bottle offense

to a wireless cool in february of 2014. so ukraine as far as i remember, denied using the last 2 weapons in ross and unites using glass to weapons. so we have these situations here when our ukraine definitely use glass to weapons. roxanne probably allow the united states once you're going to use glass to weapons on massive scale. that's terrible. i don't want to whitewash the russian government . there is a big discussion going on in russia where that it was bought, that you know, to, to get involved in an all out. well, you know, that will stop the building and the shading. oh, don't boss, which continued for 8 years. okay. but certainly, if this is not the way to stop the wireless by twice, i mean, these kinds of it weapons, it's like, i get to make sure i'm against using that. that's using the term eco y. as in charles has been the impoverished you utilize the jobs of the side. i was going to

be by using chemical weapons. you know? yeah, i just got to ask you to retrieve, to make sure i was going to ask you to us as cross on it, if, if you cry and uses these weapons supplied by the us, does it cost on a red line for russia? is it, would it be then, do you think be justified in, in responding in kind? does it give russia to use a to, to does it give brush or a, an excuse to use weapons, the other weapons, other kinds of weapons sort of band for humanitarian reasons. uh uh, well you said that uh and the, even though no one is the russian government set so far, uh, and you didn't know on that subject. i think that will be a logical consequence. i don't think the result will be the ukraine unami pushing the russians out of their land. you know, let me remind you of the media. so people use their best and as their wives with russia in the last 8 years, same crime here in don't ask and lou guys,

because these are russian people speaking russian and they will not become ukrainian in future. so if they were great in government returns to control over, they started just as a going to be a huge human tragedy. what is going on now is also human. try to do by pressure will not give up those stairs. if you bring us used bosco weapons rocks, you may also use some very destructive weapons, not necessarily new ones, but some very destructive weapons in order to protect the people who are actually can see this is citizens. the people living in the, in the, in don't you have now the people living in the building have so next to great music, i see the references on file. so every single used to protect them from across the street. okay. so sir, i'm sorry to keep you waiting. i'll be with you in just a moment because i know you've got lots to say, but i just want to give william the rise of reply that way. where is the threat to the people who are you crying from? from russia, it's not as life threatening to use it as, as the use of, of cluster munitions. adrian,

the read to the people of ukraine from russia is existential. literally, the russian government president pulls and it has said that there is no such thing as ukraine. he wants to waste ukraine off the map. so yes, there is a direct threat to ukraine, ukrainian citizens, ukraine civilians. we agree about the need to protect civilians. everyone agrees about the need to protect civilians is it's ukrainian civilians that have been killed by russian indiscriminate attacks. okay. not just by own cluster bombs. so, so yes, there is an ex, a central threat to your brain from russia in this invasion is recognized by the world. sarah. yeah, go, what's human rights watch this position on this? sure, thanks for having me. and let me just say, i deeply respect ambassador taylor and i agree with most of the things that he has

said today, except that plus your munitions are going to make the difference in this conflict that has not been proven. it is very hard to see exactly the military utility, because the pentagon has not shared its data either on done rates or the effectiveness of these weapons against the russian threats. and there are 2 big problems that i see. one is humanitarian. there is no way to make these weapons harmless, absolutely no way, and we have already documented ukrainians using cluster munitions. we just put out our findings earlier this week that civilians ukrainian civilians have already been killed by ukrainians using classroom munitions. again, there is no way to make these harmless and 2nd, there is a global norm being broken here. the majority of the nation of the world's nations have bad these weapons specifically because they are too dangerous for the battlefield. i am worried both about what is going to happen in ukraine and what is

going to happen on the slippery slope for conflict in the future. so other, any circumstances that would justify the use of cross commissions and you, if you, i don't, i don't believe so they are in, in the shortly indiscriminate. and this argument that russia is using cluster munitions with a very high don't rate. you know, the argument that ukraine should use, cluster munitions, as well as a race to the bottom. and i am very concerned about that. including for new cranny and civilians. they continued to kill and pollute, often years after they've been deployed, regardless of which side prevails in this conflict, someone is going to have to deal with a long term human environmental impact, or leave large tracts of land unusable. i mean, who's, who's like, go to pay it to me, who is responsible for clearing up the united states is the largest donor to uh, do you mind the efforts around the world? and because it used cluster munitions and anti personnel landlines in various

places around the world is giving a lot of money already because of the exxon exploded ordinance. these does that are all over you. credit is $73000000000.00 to clean them up. that is without the u. s . cluster munitions being set. so this is going to be a massive expensive cleanup effort. and president biden is going to have to address this when he goes to vienna and talks with the european nations about reconstruction, rebuilding and the money that it's going to take to clean these up. and both of the techno and i know you want to come in, the us dropped an estimated 260000000 trusted munitions in loss between 1964. 1973 . so far, fewer than 400000 a lot point 47 percent have been cleared and at least 11000 people have been killed according to which has these weapons pose a fault race, a threat to civilian this when they do their intended ministry targets? don't think there's a reason why so many nations refused to use them. hey, adrian again, no one wants to use these weapons. every one would like to have the regular,

the unitary weapons, the unitary ammunition for they are tell. or there's no doubt. i don't just do anything the server just said or that you just said, and you asked about the clean up. yes. if there will have to be played off. yes, the unexploded ordnance you will have to be cleaned up. it turns out, adrian is, you will know that the mining that the russians have done is extensive up and down the line. the estimates are 10000000 minds, not any personnel, much somebody for personal mind, but mostly anti tank minds. they are the about 10000000 up and down the line in ukraine, but the russians are planted. they'll all have to be dug up. they'll all have to be d, v if you and you're exactly right. so the united states, as preparing so for and has already provided and has provided the d mining capabilities, we will provide more. i'm sure the gradients are working on

d mining capabilities. they're going to have to be cleaned up all of those $10000000.00 and the tank mind up and down the line are going to have to be. and at the same time that they're cleaning up the any tank minds and defusing them, they will be cleaning up the, the positive munitions, the dogs that are still there, by the way, the dug rate of the russian mind, the russian a cluster mind fussing munitions. um is in the 30 to 40 percent range, whereas the doug rate, according to the defense department, is one to 3 percent so that they were still have to be cleaned up. no one likes these weapons, no one likes to sound munition. would it be better if we didn't have to use them? but if the choice is allowing the russians to run over your brain and take it over, that's that, that's the danger disability. that's a danger to the brand. new civilian dimitry rush us as the transfer of these plus the munitions to ukraine, smacks of desperation. what does it tell us about the conflict itself?

the fact that, as we heard from a best, a type of the ukraine is running out of a conventional ministry, a weapon, res, amunition. and which side if either is able to gain some sort of advantage militarily as well. i think the best sell you from here would be a compromise. unfortunately, it's the united states and the, the european union who don't want to compromise a single grade. they. so she prepped the negotiations, so that's what went on in east on will last year. even in march and we were very close to a compromise with ukraine. it did not presuppose russia around, you know, william green or wife and ukraine. uh, off the map suddenly which i never said that a who wouldn't send that the if you wanted to make your brain secure. what actually if you want is you going to be the minute drive and do not support. this is the exact quote. he didn't want to destroy your brain as

a country. he probably means that he wants to destroy either your brain and reveal, even though he didn't go as far as saying that as for the future as for the perspective so, well, let me tell you that of course it's a sign of just the reason because the united states, why does this uh, pre keep it that uh, sending us made costs the web store the congress. there was no waiver, all the, all these pretty patient by the congress. so if we believe the washington post, for example, president bar them is in fact uh, somehow uh, maybe even uh, making an extensive use of his presidential powers. to me these shows that tonight the space has become and i don't want to go steve, just like the nazi of the appointment. just i know what you go states in the past. we know that in to 33 in states, i do. what would your goal was before the war? the main thing for the alternative or like georgia, which is no rain, so they're not the states and that you were being union. you still have your brain

. s a think that they don't care about the losses. they don't care about you bringing people, they want your brain to win as the say. so that's why the radio to bend the rules to, i'm sorry, breach the loss, to send the most destructive weapons. they just want to see the side when. as for russia, of course, well, very way on friendly about these, but very on said about the need to put the land mines a certainly what didn't present, what did you know the plan that uh when he stopped at the so called me to drive the ration you know the family last year, because sooner away the we will have to clean it up because there are, after all, mostly russian. people living in east and you green. and if you read the united states press, it recognizes this back in the night, just back of up to thousands, only now they keep saying that your brain is such a separate country ability, different from russia, it has a completely different identities. you know, we have a joint identity in many ways,

and we will have to clean the top our cells in future. that's very unfortunate because as you rightly said, gloss to weapons are very dangerous. they keep exposing, they keep cheating people, years after they have been used on is huge, whatever level it. so i think it's, it's up to a theme for different police simplex human rights, which on these occasions, not the sample cost of us to print and receiving both rushing. okay. but any use of cost of weapons and this what i want to bring in sir, if human rights watch. uh, once again, as we start at the beginning of the program will, is a dirty business center. and those as be held in our report depleted uranium used by the us and the rock in iraq and 1st gulf war uh 32 years ago has left the legacy of kansas and illnesses among people that out in other countries bombed by nato. ukraine's also been using british supplied weapons that contain depleted uranium is human rights watch concerned that the people of the border region in ukraine and

russia will suffer in the same way as people in iraq have done. and we don't have any research on depleted uranium at the moment so we can get into that a little bit later. let me just make 2 quick comments about what's been said 1st president by and actually made this decision and signed a waiver completely within the rule of law within the united states. it's a shame that he did because congress thought that these weapons were far too dangerous to send anywhere and made a prohibition against transferring them to any weapon. president biden within the law, signed a waiver. and it basically, just as we're going to prohibit these except when we really need them. and i think that that's really unfortunate. i also just want to go to this done rate because everyone is talking about what the pentagon has reported about the gun rate. we actually have human rights watch has done a bunch of research and has pentagon reports going back to the, to thousands. they actually have a 14 percent done rate on these very weapons. now perhaps there are variance that

the pentagon is looking at, but they have not provided any data. so within our democracy, there is no transparency about where these numbers are coming from. and so to repeat them that there was a 1.5 percent on rate, a $2.00. we're hearing these variations. every answer is different. where, where they tested on what kind of ground and what kind of circumstances we're not getting any of those answers. and i think that that is a real problem in this case. ok, i best of the time that we might just put it before i quit for from you. if you, if you want to. i given the do force in any rock about this use of depleted uranium, then most times of nature have signed up to this international panel trust the mutations made to the secretary general. i am still in the book said that the, the alliance didn't have a full position on the use on the baffle field. and that the decision on that you should be down to individual countries. i mean, what are we to make up that the best? no unity among other lines. so the use of weapons that many members find a bar and,

and a pledge not to use secure generals. exactly right. made what they know as an, as an organization doesn't decide on weapons, individual countries. individual members, do. we've not heard any condemnation from nato members of this decision. why? because they recognize it's a hard decision. they recognize it, that they don't like these weapons. we don't like these weapons, the congress doesn't like these weapons. the defense department doesn't like these weapons, but they all recognize that the alternative that is no artillery round for the ukrainians. and so i'm acceptable. is that acceptable morally, militarily, politically, it makes no, it makes no sense to have the premiums run out of weapons and not be able to defend themselves against the russians that are in bathing their country. so the nature of the nato members, they don't like it. we don't like it however they recognize and they,

they buy their statements. they recognize that as an individual decision by the american shares. exactly right. the president may use the waiver that's in the law . he doesn't like it, he's the president boynton said he doesn't like this of this decision. but again, if the, if the decision, if the alternative is to let the russians overrun the ukraine, is he's not gonna let that happen. okay, and we've got a, we've got about a minute left. is there anything you want to say about that the use of depleted uranium? i know we talking about cluster munitions, but the, the, the use of depleted uranium in the region of the world right now. i have nothing to add to what you, what sir, is that? okay. all right. uh dmitri relief date that the last with to you then bear in mind, i've got about a minute left on the program. so i need you to give me a fairly concise answer on, on what you've heard and from a, i'll washington guest in the last few moments to well, i would just say that it looks uh, our opponents uh, that when you to use gloss to web us the, when you do use depleted uranium,

how come there for peace? how comes the defendant democracy by such means, the same goal was about the breaking down. if they destroyed uh, monuments, if they can. so uh for the days, if they destroy lee or agent, maybe they, uh, they will give buyers. maybe they ought to buy these country where they change order traditions. all of the rules may be not off, but they are that there's a that i'm afraid we're going to have to write it as always on inside story. even though what i'd, i'd love to give the rights of reply. that's what even sarah, in in washington and i'm afraid time is against us when use weights for no one on that. and that's next. thank you all for being with us, william taylor, dimitri babich. and sarah, you go and thank you for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again at any time by going to the website of elders 0. don't com. for further discussion on this issue, joining us on our facebook page, you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash

h a inside start at story. i have a course, the conversation continues on twitter. i'll handle it a inside story for me, adrian. instead of going on the same here. and though, thanks for being with us, we'll see you again, bye for that. the the, the us is a, was of inside the world. people pay attention to this one here. and i'll do this very good that bringing the news to the world from here on counting the cost rights in front of the businesses. can the nation spend its way out of the crisis? that team is called white goals and the race for it is heating off. plus the b is

mining firm is give his thoughts why the biggest share of this diamond riches counting the cost on l. just data when a war crime is committed, is a kind of how does it will follow is that goes in the human rights investigator on his unprecedented journey to the french high court. i visit a pretty place to make sure that i should go up to frank. it's called taking on the arms training. it is fine for justice, for innocent palestinians and their families made in front. oh no. just see if these people have know where to go. they were forced out of their neighborhoods because of the fighting going on between rival gang, what he's offering nothing further about the special forces where they are for the special forces. this area used to be filled with people. but as you can see right now, it looks like a war zone. this is the largest hospital in haiti, and it has been barely working for the past 5 months. as a missionary, sir,

are the barbecue, has created what is known as the g 9. it's a federation of dams and it's one of the most powerful here is road connect, the communal fit to be with an other area that is not far away and were told that it was being used by getting some of the people that had been kidnapped. the i'm on the inside in doha, he had told stories on al jazeera, it's been reveal the meeting has been held between the russian president vladimir putin on the chief of the wagner. mastering group of getting into goshen, the criminal spokesman to meet 3 pest golf toll reports is that the russian president invited a group of unit commanders to the meeting, which was held just 5 days off to the group march towards moscow last month. usually a ship of a nova has moved from.