a need the opium hours to cracked 10 to call me this revel only to be disappear. of families. tragedy entwined with a violent chapter and the country's history. when you see the blood you say is that going to be my blood on that was to a knife long search for answers and close finding salon. witness on tuesday, around the world is big enough for both the united states and china. the words of the us treasury secretary, during her visit to virginia, 2 superpowers continues to engage in a free pool. is it really? what exactly does washington want from china? this is inside story. the

are welcome to the program. i'm adrian said, a good relations between the us and china appear to be across roads to high profile us visitors have been to badging within the last month to try to repair the damage relationship, trade sanctions, computer chip secrets, and taiwan. just some of the concerns of the world's talk to economies of nuclear super powers. but so far as i found a little to show for the missions of diplomacy. so all they just photo ups and political fits a or has anything that achieved will explore the issues with our guests. and just a moment, the foster report from i'll just heroes, katia lopez for the young it's been described as a step forward and us china relations. us treasury secretary genet, yelman's the 40 visits of aging may have ease tensions between the world's top to the economy. but most trust remains us in china,

have significant disagreements. those disagreements need to be communicated clearly and directly. but present in spite midnight do not see the relationship between the us and china. through the frame of creek power conflict. we believe that the world is big enough for both of our countries to thrive. trade restrictions and political fallout tough. so what relations between the top 2 economies, both governments acknowledge, however reluctantly, that their economies need one another. see only if we hook the us. i will take a rational and pragmatic attitude me trying to off way and work together, you know, basing one's washington to lift billions of dollars in tariffs imposed by former president donald trump and to and sanctions limiting chinese technology firms and their access to semiconductors. jaelyn has also issued requests, calling on the chinese to even the playing field for

u. s. companies operating in china. we have entered into the early stages of a new multi paula global order. that's the 1st thing coming to business with that fundamental reality helps around you in the realities of the world as of ease, as opposed to the hopes and wishes that 1 may have about how the will ought to be. despite political fallout, recent data show a solid trade relationship with 2 way trade worth nearly 700000000000 dollars last year. but economies and alliances are shifting, particularly since rushes invasion of ukraine is to put. some analysts say competition for economic and military dominance could take an alarming turn between the 2 super powers. and now the waiting has begun to see if he owns visit will turn

by lateral attention to collaboration patsy a little bit. so the young for insights story let's bring it out. guess for today's program from china is capital we're joined by pull trailer city, a vice president for china at the global business strategy from old bright stone bridge in the us. capital is elizabeth lara's founder and president of the letters consulting research other than us just from focused on the asia pacific region and also emerging and the mark a senior research fellow at the center, the china and globalization, chinese think tank a world welcome to you all pull, let's start with you. what did you make of johnny ellen's visit to beijing was at least more productive of the data. and so the blinking last month. yes, i think it was definitely more productive. i think um the number of visits uh with key officials but yelman's able to to obtain we're pretty important. she met with

premier lee chon, she met with very senior financial managers or chinese economy including the gong people, bank of china, but the finance minister. so i think just that the fact that she was able to establish direct communication with a new economic team in beijing was really important. now there weren't a lot of big deliverables, but i think just being able to sit down with her counterparts in invasion and for the 1st time really right in that during so ministration is it is a real significant achievement in itself. even though the expectations below and there weren't necessarily concrete deliverables coming out of the meeting. so the fact that the meeting itself took place and seem to go very well on both sides is, is a success. elizabeth would, would you agree with that was was the visit a successful walk for it's a it's what was she sent that to me. okay. so i agree maybe about 50 percent. um

yeah. see a secretary. all them is able to meet some of an oppressive number of people a short amount of time. she must be absolutely exhausted. and certainly the meeting was more cordial than a secretary said anthony, blinking needing in in beijing. but they are not high expectations for this meeting . the same as with secretary blankets, meaning expectations were, you know, kept pretty low. and that's because the purpose was to resume regular channels of dialogue between the united states and china. after you know, the relationship or perhaps hit a low point of need or, you know, after low season is a to taiwan child support for the brushes, invasion of ukraine, this bible, you know, issue the whole host of issues. and so, um, you know, president biden is very, very clearly a um wants to improve relations with china, which is extremely important. so he's sending over blanket. yeah. alone. and then

john terry will go shortly to talk about issues that are areas where we can have some agreements with staging, you know, the economy, everyone can agree on that. we want to improve economic relations. that's not, that's a touchy political issue. and, and of course, with john kerry going, talking about climate issues. and again, that's something that you know, trying to in the united states can agree on. so as far as you know, restarting a normal talks meeting with, you know, the new economic people over in beijing, in those terms, it was successful and they worked at the chinese make of of janet galen a do they trust to see? yeah, that's a great question. adrian and so i think 1st a little bit of context. since the early days of reform, china has had apprehensions and suspicions that the us would sooner or later

weaponized global public goods. like the us dollar lights, the lanes of communication, like access to technology, access to markets, and the last few years. unfortunately, you have shown that those suspicions were not ill founded. so i think while the secretary of treasury yelling has many soothing words for china. i can't help but think of ralph waldo emerson's uh, quote that your actions are so loud that i cannot hear your words in that. uh the us uh for the last few years certainly is taken actions that are quite at odds with the more conciliatory words that we're hearing on not only from secretary treasury jaelyn, but others in the binding administration as well. so i think that talking is good. i agree with paul, that's good that both sides are talking, but the real resolution to this relationship will not based on uh,

more frequent communications. okay. oh, would you agree with that? a list of, of the top started how many more cd a bite and administration officials will be sent to page and in the future. and, and for what purpose i, we, are we building perhaps towards, to think of bytes. and she summit here is that in the pipeline. absolutely, we're building an on ran, if you will, to a notional by the see summit on the margins of the apec meeting in november. so that's really the goal here. at least at least one of the goals this, this was something that was also you have this high level cabinet series of cabinet level meetings. was something a 3 to the last time. the 2 presidents met in bali in november of a that 20 to 2022. so i mean the, the, the issues like the balloon a fair and other this is supply one by congressional delegations have certainly complicated things. but i think now we're back on

a more clear guide wide path to november. now that said there's still a lot of issues i agree with with andy, there's not a ton of issues on both sides of just before. yeah, on the arrival, for example, china announced export controls on to critical minerals used in stomach and after production, gallium and germanium. and on the us side, of course, uh there are, there had been a series of export controls on trans companies over the last number of months. and then there's discussion of about investment mechanism which yelling as it does seems to have previewed for her chinese host and characterizes very narrow. but of course, beijing is, is a little leery of, of some of these measures that us has taken and has characterized as narrow because they do have broader implications for chinese technology sector for example, or for, for the economy. so i think they're up and up to the lead up to november. they're going to continue to be measures taking on both sides that are going to complicate what we've been calling this many saw in the bi lateral relationship. pull china is

premier said to try to us, ties can now see rainbows after a round of wind and rain, which is a pretty beautiful way to, to, to put it but is p, right. i'll wait in for a period of, of calm, of weather in terms of relations between the 2 nations or you talked about how many sol of that so many things that that could be royal this, that will, we could end up back in the deep freeze if we don't cancel and i think that's a great question and i think right now if you're coming out of the l visit, i think you can see that there's clearly the will on both sides to try to make this as many fall in the relationship work. but at least until november, when we would have this notional, a bite and c summit. but i think there are forces on both sides that are, that are intent on undermining the spa. so you, you see around the visit these high level visits, for example,

a number of media media stories probably linked by forces on both sides trying to paint the other side. is my eve in trying to seek this, this many thoughts? so i think, i think my sense is that will probably is that the relationships will be able to, whether some of these, these tensions going into november. but then the question becomes what, what, what is the substance of that summit? where do we go from here as we saw it in the yellow and visit china pressed the all and on things like tariffs on, on some of the export controls. so some of the really hard things in the relationship that neither side really seems to want to budge on. and so it's hard to see how we can continue to just have park and dialogue at a high level and not have some major movement on both sides on some of the sort of court issues that are doubling the relationship for china. for example, taiwan is a huge issue and, and we have lots of measures, for example, new us congress to increase military support for taiwan. we've had as well have

a series probably of the congressional delegation going to taiwan. so there are these very, very tough strategic issues that neither side really can or, or will tackle due to domestic political pressures. and so i think the relationship, you know, for the moment we'll, we'll be honest, this more even keel. but there's another role underlying problems have been, have been really seriously addressed in any of these meetings. the site level meeting so far, elizabeth, trying to get insights, but it is possible for the 2 nations to help sleep co exist. is that how the white house sees it, but what happened to buy things? not on my watch. a stipend concerning the rise of china. and i'm wanting practice aren't going to have on, on any prospect of, of harmonizing relations between the 2 countries. well, publicly, both sides the homepage and the washington want to say that we can co exist, you know, a young man has use the term healthy constitution to educate that we're

not enemies, we might be economic rivals as so, you know, that's a natural situation when you have the 2 largest economic powers in the world that there do, you know, she even said there was, there was room for the 2 countries to co exist in the world. and so she said things that are please and of course to beijing's e r. m. and one of the reasons that she's all are there now is because in the aging, she is seen as one of the people who is more favorably disposed towards the aging, rather than perhaps some other people in washington. and so she's saying things that, you know, that make washington, you know, if you're willing to engage with china, certainly areas. now there are, there are issues in the us, china relations that are really irreconcilable differences. you know, and as, as the other guests, you know, mention, you know, try one us out,

trying to see the status of both of those are really irreconcilable. you know, then there's a trade war and export controls. are those irreconcilable, or can they be managed right? some of these issues are not going to be solved and taiwan is the issue that cannot be solved because the united states and trying to see very, very differently on that issue. however, it does need to be managed. it is extremely important, not just of course, economic wise, because after all businesses want a stable environment in which to do business, right? um, but militarily, these, these issues, these differences, if they cannot be resolved, must be managed. so there really is peace in the inductor step back, because if they're not managed well, then there was a possibility of, you know, conflict between the united states and china and others. but how much pressure is us business putting on the administration of its relationship with china?

well, there's tremendous pressure, undivided administration. an american businesses are obviously still present in china. of course, there was a bit more skittish about the environment there after, uh, trying to, you know, promulgated but it was after the national security law. and also, you know, a chinese authorities have been investigating some due diligence for us, including the american firms banning company and this company. and, and, and, you know, and of course secretary young and didn't bring all of those issues when she was in beijing. of course, goldman sachs came out with the report just the other day. um, you know, flagging some of the problems and the chinese banking industry. and they were around and criticized and taken to task by aging, for essentially publishing information that was counter to china as best interest. so that has a real chilling effect on us businesses. but if you weren't in china,

you know, you might, you know, expand your operations in some other country or move some of your operations to another place, vietnam, the lazy and mexico and what's called china plus one, where you're probably not going to pick up and move your entire factory and to a trade between china and the united states increase last year. and so businesses, they still, they still see that they can make a lot of money despite the risks and, and, and, and the lack of, you know, intellectual pop property protections. they have, they still see if there was money to be made. so they want a smooth environment in which to do this. and i such as pride matter that makes sense to them. i mean, what does china want from the us in order to make that relationship? it has hesitate to say mohammed monia, so although productive and perhaps less on tiger lipstick is, is what i'm uh, i'm looking for here. how does a china feel about investing political capital into developing relations with

administration, but maybe because there's an election next year gone in 18 months. yeah, and that's always the struggle i think dealing with the united states is that in some sense, it's structurally incapable of honoring any long term agreements. adrian. but i think the issue here is that from the chinese perspective, we, us behavior paints a pretty clear picture that the u. s. is looking to work china's growth and development. so the question is, what is trying to doing and response to this? and i think it's reaction is based on a very accurate reading of the prevailing power dynamics. so a china always has been committed to working with any country, including the united states on the basis of mutual respect and respect for sovereignty. but i think starting march 2021 of the alaska meetings, we can see

a sea change. we're trying it has said if we can't make you see the light america, we will make you feel the heat. and that was shown in the very sharp exchanges in alaska, but also i think, shown in these uh, blooming restrictions with uh, gallium and germanium. they're not only important comp inputs for semiconductors, but also for high powered radar. which of course, is crucial for many aspects of the american military. so i think china is showing that it's willing to go toe to toe with the u. s. a, and make them feel the heat. what is trying to want to answer your question, i think is the recognition that china really isn't equal to the united states. and what's happening in the us is that it's going through these 5 stages of grief. uh, from uh, denial, anger, bargaining, depression,

and acceptance. so i would say that the secretary yelling is certainly in the bargaining phase, but we still have key republican, some others in the us that are still in the denial and anger phase. so i think what china is hoping for is for the us to move as quickly as possible to be acceptance phase, and that will lead to a much more harmonious, prosperous, not peaceful world. okay, but the board about that the election next year, of course and a said did are investing political capital when, when everything could change again next year at the end of next year. here's the ironic thing. uh so i think that's a very good point. i think certainly working with whoever is in power at the time is still a chinese priority. but if trump does get reelected, i think you're something to, to know to could be in some ways very positive for china. he's on record saying

that taiwan is very close to china and far away from us. so what can we actually do about it, which some is interpreted to mean that he recognizes the writing on the wall and may actually been very pragmatic way. so adrian knew that could be an argument that it might make sense to wait and see what happens in 2024. but on the other hand, a time is always precious. and i think that, you know, china has been very vigorous in pursuing diplomacy, not just with the united states, but with the e. u. many other countries around the world, saudi arabia, ron, the solomon islands, a 100 yours. and i don't think that will change poll um, would you agree with what i am? the eddie was saying that about the, the anger phase and the acceptance phase. and we heard something similar from a warrick a in, in our report at the beginning of the program. but he was talking about the,

the us not realizing that we're at the beginning of a new multi polar world or the, the, the us is still hoping and wishing that things were different. yeah, well i think that's it, that maybe the maybe a good way to characterize it, but i think you know, that in the us there's, there's, there's sort of this new bipartisan agreement that china represents this, this uh, this threat that and some, some terminal and excess dental threat to us interests. and so you have this, this policy that the by the administration has adopted called a line and best and compete them. and the alignment part of that is building coalitions in europe and asia with an eye to sort of containing china is rise as a technology power. so this is, this is, this is sort of a c change and in washington that i think will survive a, even the change in an administration. and so the challenge then for china is to,

is to, is to determine how to engage with, give a, given the sort of the best best bipartisan agreement on china. and try to get back to some level of above normality in terms of diplomacy. and that, that's what we're seeing with, with, with these visits now. and i think china though is, is, is taking a longer term view and it is concerned about the potential and then 2024 for there to be, you know, what, the change the ministration. but i think they're, they're, they're sort of envisioning, i think officials are, are not, they'll have any, any, any of the illusion that the us policy is going to change significantly. and we have to go back to some, to the sort of obama era or, or, you know, an area where, where, where there were, there was a different approach to china and trying, it wasn't, wasn't really fluid. and at that point is that as, as, as it is not with washington as a real appear appear competitor, the only peer competitor in it and a challenge and a threat. right?

so bad that us. busy it is not going to change. ok the with a change of constrictions by engaging have to adapt. okay. i'm sorry, sorry. b l, sorry to close you down. pull up a time is, is, is against us. i wanna get a couple of questions into elizabeth and at and elizabeth to an extent then all of the code on the can trade relations key here to maintaining a stable crossing this relationship between the 2 countries. no matter what the tension on, on human rights issues, taiwan territorial disputes and such the to meet each other for the, for the sake of their economies. and the economies are definitely so intertwined that decoupling is going to be very difficult. i know this term d risking is being thrown around rather than the coupling of their 2 things you know, that is going on. you know, of course, in china there is something in a 10 to a indigenous ation program going on. it's called made in china 2025,

and she's a pain came up with this um, just a few years ago. and the intensive for that is a too big china, less reliance on the united states and the rest of the world. that is the chinese economy, but also the civil military, you know, fusion industry less reliance on the united states on the west. but jamaica was more dependent on the chinese economy. and so, um, as you can see, what has been happening in china in recent years, is the we growth of the stage and the economy. you know, so stop shop things, reform and open english started and 1979 childhood who had been moving towards adopting more market for re ends and principals. but after she just came to power in 2012 and then the accelerated and especially with the appointments um,

holly phone, as the vice premier with an economic portfolio, you'll see the re introduced re introduction of this. okay. and i, yes, the other thing we need more markets price because they are not more state. so that's a really big difference. elizabeth, again, sorry, sort of brought and we've got about a minute and a half left and the john, you haven't set the visit, was aimed at putting a floor under the turbulence in the relationship between the 2 countries. did she? did she do that? do you think and where did you see that the relationship going now they went all of a sudden done the 2 countries need each other, but i think certainly various some dependencies. but i think that deeds not words. so what will determine the future of the relationship will be american actions? not so much of the wreck last week trying to use per herod for any event to ality

that happens. but i think, you know, the hope is that there is a pot of gold at the end of this rainbow. uh that, uh the uh, yelman's visit represents. and that there can be a when we an outcome is the chinese like to say, okay, the, we're going to have to leave it manufacturing, they to all of your pull trill, elizabeth lazarus and, and a mock. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again at any time by going to the website that i'll just 0 . don't com for further discussion on this topic, join us on facebook page. you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash a inside story out. of course you can join the conversation on twitter, handle the inside story from me every, instead of going on the team here and so hot, thanks for watching. we'll see you again by from the

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