when the news breaks, i'm in front of the building up was hit with a door and i talked to you and that's when people need to be hot. and the story needs to be told. i wanted to cry as if i'd never see my parents and country again . with exclusive interviews and in depth reports the irrigation canals are nearly empty. algebra has teens on the ground. they've just staring interaction harriman's access to bring you more award winning document trees and light news. the world is big enough for both the united states and china. other words of the us treasury secretary during her visit to virginia. but for the 2 superpowers continues to engage in frame. is it really what exactly does washington want from china? this is inside story, the

welcome to the program. i'm adrian said, a good relations between the us and china appear to be across roads to high profile us visitors have been to badging within the last month to try to repair the damage relationship, trade sanctions, computer chip secrets, m, taiwan. just some of the concerns of the world's talk to economies of nuclear super powers, but so far as i found a little to show for the mission of diplomacy. so are they just photo ups and political fits or has anything that achieved? we'll explore the issues with our guests and just a moment, but the faster report from i'll just arrows, katia lopez. how are you? i'm it's been described as a step forward and us china relations. us treasury secretary genet yelman's the 40 visits aging may have ease tensions between the world's top to the economy. but most trust remains us in china have significant disagreements.

those disagreements need to be communicated clearly and directly. but president vitamin i do not see the relationship between the us and china through the frame of creek power conflict. we believe that the world is big enough for both of our countries to thrive. trade restrictions and political fallout tough. so what relations between the top 2 economies, both governments acknowledge, however reluctantly, that their economies need one another. so you only, we hope the us, i will take a rational and pragmatic attitude, me trying to off way and work together. how do you know the aging ones, washington to lift billions of dollars in tariffs imposed by former president donald trump and to and sanctions limiting chinese technology firms and their access to semiconductors. jaelyn has also issued requests, calling on the chinese to even the playing field for us companies operating in

china. we have entered into the early stages of a new multi paula global order. that's the 1st thing coming to business with that fundamental reality helps around you. in the realities of the world as it is, as opposed to the hopes and wishes that 1 may have about how the will to be despite political fallout, recent data show a solid trade relationship with 2 way trade worth nearly 700000000000 dollars last year. but economies and alliances are shifting, particularly since russia's invasion of ukraine is to protect. some analysts say competition for economic and military dominance could take an alarming turn between the 2 super powers. and now the waiting has begun to see if humans visit will turn

by lateral attention to collaboration. patsy a little bit. so the young for inside story the by let's bring it out. guess for today's program from china is capital withdrawing by pull trailer city, a vice president for china at global business strategy for old bright stonebridge in the us. capital is elizabeth lara's founder and president of the letters consulting research does not assist from focused on the asia pacific region and also emerging at the mark. see me a research fellow at the center of, of china and globalization, chinese think tank a world welcome to you all pull. let's start with you. what did you make of johnny ellen's visit to beijing? was at least more productive of the data. and so the blinking last month. yes, i think it was definitely more productive. i think um the number of visits uh with key officials but yelling was able to to obtain we're pretty important. she met

with premier lee chon, she met with various senior financial managers of chinese economy including you, gong, people's bank of china. but the finance minister. so i think just with the fact that she was able to establish direct communication with a new economic team and vision was really important. now there weren't a lot of big deliverables, but i think just being able to sit down with her counterparts in invasion and for the 1st time really writing that during so ministration is it is a real significant achievement in itself. even though, um the, the expectations below and there weren't necessarily concrete deliverables coming out of the meeting. so the fact that the meeting itself took place and seem to go very well on both sides is, is a success. elizabeth, would, would you agree with that? what was the visit a success? what, what parts am this, what was she sent that to me. okay, so i agree maybe that 50 percent. um yeah. see

a secretary. all them is able to meet on an oppressive number of people a short amount of time. she must be absolutely exhausted, and certainly the meeting was more cordial than a secretary said anthony, blinking needing in in beijing. but they are not high expectations for this meeting . the same as with secretary blankets, meeting expectations were kept pretty low. and that's because the purpose was to reason on regular channels of dialogue between the united states and china. after you know, the relationship or perhaps hit a low point of need. or, you know, after close is this a to taiwan, chinese support for the russians. invasion of ukraine, this bible, you know, issue the whole host of issues. and so, um, you know, president biden is very, very clearly a um wants to improve relations with china, which is extremely important. so he's sending over lincoln, y'all and,

and then john terry will go shortly to talk about issues that are areas where we can have some agreements with staging. you know, the economy. everyone can agree on that. we want to improve economic relations. that's not, that's a touchy political issue. and, and of course, with john kerry going, talking about climate issues. and again, that's something that you know, trying to in the united states can agree on. so as far as you know, restarting a normal tox meeting with, you know, the new economic people over in beijing, in those terms, it was successful. and they worked at the chinese make of, of janet galen. uh do they trust to see? yeah, that's great question. adrian and so i think 1st a little bit of context since the early days of reform, china has had apprehensions and suspicions that the us would sooner or later

weaponized global public goods like the us dollar like see lanes of communication like access to technology, access to markets and the last few years unfortunately, have shown that those suspicions were not ill founded. so i think while secretary of treasury yelling has many soothing words for china. i can't help but think of ralph waldo emerson's uh, quote that your actions are so loud that i cannot hear your words in that. uh the us uh for the last few years certainly is taken actions that are quite at odds with the more conciliatory words that we're hearing on not only from secretary treasury jaelyn, but others in the binding administration as well. so i think that talking is good. i agree with paul, that's good that both sides are talking, but the real resolution to this relationship will not based on uh,

more frequent communications. okay. oh, would you agree with that? a list of, of the top started how many more cd a bite and administration officials will be sent to page in your, in the near future. and, and for what purpose i, we, are we building perhaps towards, to think of bytes. and she summit here is that in the pipeline. absolutely, we're building an on ran, if you will, to a notional bite and c summit on the margins of the apec meeting in november. so that's really the goal here. at least at least one of the goals this, this was something that was also you have this high level cabinet series of cabinet level meetings. was something a 3 to the last time. the 2 presidents met in ball late in november of a that 20 to 2022. so i mean the, the, the issues like the balloon a fair and other this is supply one by congressional delegations have certainly complicated things. but i think now we're back on

a more clear guide quite path to november. now that said there's still a lot of issues i agree with with the and the there's not a ton of issues on both sides. um, just before. yeah, on the arrival, for example, china announced export controls on to political minerals used in stomach and after production, gallium and germanium. and on the us side, of course, uh there are, there had been a series of export controls on trans companies over the last number of months. and then there's discussion of an outbound investment mechanism which yelling us it seems to have previewed for her chinese host and characterizes very narrow. but of course, beijing is, is a little leery of, of some of these measures that us has taken and has characterized as narrow because they do have broader implications for chinese technology sector for example, or for, for the economy. so i think they're up and up to the lead up to november. they're going to continue to be measures taking on both sides that are going to complicate what we've been calling this many saw in the bilateral relationship. pull china is

. premier said to try to us ties can now see rainbows after a round of wind and rain, which is a pretty beautiful way to, to, to put it, but is p right away. and for a period of, of calm, of weather in terms of relations between the 2 nations or utils. about how many sol of that so many things that that could be royal this, that will we could end up back in the deep freeze if we don't cancel. and i think that's a great question. and i think right now, if you're coming out of the business, i think you can see that there's clearly the will on both sides to try to make this as many fall in the relationship work. but at least until november, when we would have this notional, a bite and c summit. but i think there are forces on both sides that are, that are intent on undermining the spa. so you, you see around the visit these high level visits, for example,

a number of media's media stories probably linked by forces on both sides trying to paint the other side is naive in trying to seek this, this many thoughts. so i think, i think my sense is that will probably is that the relationships will be able to, whether some of these, these tensions going into november. but then the question becomes what, what, what is the substance of that summit? where do we go from here as we saw it in the yellow and visit china pressed the one on things like tariffs on, on some of the export controls. so some of the really hard things in the relationship that neither side really seems to want to budge on. and so it's hard to see how we can continue to just have park and dialogue at a high level and not have some major movement on both sides on some of the sort of court issues that are doubling their relationship for china. for example, taiwan is a huge issue and, and we have lots of measures, for example, new us congress to increase military support for taiwan. we've had as well have

a series probably of the congressional delegation going to taiwan. so there are these very, very tough strategic issues that neither side really can or, or will tackle due to domestic political pressures. and so i think the relationship, you know, for the moment will, will be honest, this more even keel. but there's another role underlying problems have been, have been really seriously addressed in any of these meetings. beside a little meeting so far, elizabeth, trying to get insights, but it is possible for the 2 nations to help sleep co exist. is that how the white house sees it, but what happened to buy things? not on my watch. a stipend concerning the rise of china. and i'm wanting practice aren't going to have on, on any prospect of, of harmonizing relations between the 2 countries. hello publicly, both sides the homepage and the washington want to say that we can co exist, you know, a young man had use the term healthy competition. to educate that we're

not enemies, we might be economic rivals as so, you know, that's a natural situation when you have the 2 largest economic powers in the world that there do, you know, she even said there was, there was room for the 2 countries to co exist in the world, and so she said things that are please and of course to be genes e r m. and one of the reasons that she's all are there now is because in the aging, she is seen as one of the people who is more favorably disposed towards the aging, rather than perhaps some other people in washington. and so she's saying things that, you know, that make washington, you know, if you're willing to engage with china, certainly areas. now there are, there are issues in the us, china relations that are really irreconcilable differences. you know, and as, as the other guests, you know, mentioned, you know,

try one us out trying to see the status of both of those are really irreconcilable . you know, then there's a trade war and export controls. are those irreconcilable, or can they be managed right? some of these issues are not going to be solved to taiwan is the issue that cannot be solved because the united states and trying to see very, very differently on that issue. however, it does need to be manage. it is extremely important, not just of course, economic wise, because after all businesses want a stable environment in which to do business, right? um, but militarily, these, these issues, these differences, if they cannot be resolved, must be managed. so there really is piece in the inductor step back, because if they're not managed well, then there was a possibility of, you know, conflict between the united states and china and others. but how much pressure is us business putting on the administration of its relationship with china?

well, there's tremendous pressure, undivided administration. an american businesses are obviously still present in china. of course, there was a bit more skittish about the environment there after, uh, trying to, you know, promulgated but it was after the national security law. and also, you know, a chinese authorities have been investigating some due diligence firms, including the american firms banning company. and this company and, and, and, you know, and of course, secretary young and didn't bring up those issues when she was in beijing. of course, goldman sachs came out with the report just the other day. um, you know, flagging some of the problems and the chinese banking industry and they were around, he criticized and taken to task 5, aging for essentially publishing information that was counter to change his best interest. so that has a real chilling effect on us businesses. but if you weren't in china, you know,

you might, you know, expand your operations in some other country or move some of your operations to another place, vietnam, the lazy and mexico and what's called china plus one, where you're probably not going to pick up and move your entire factory and to a trade between china and the united states increase last year. and so businesses, they still, they still see that they can make a lot of money despite the risks and, and, and, and the lack of, you know, intellectual pop property protections. they have, they still see if there was money to be made. so they want a smooth environment in which to do this. and i thought just probably matter if that makes sense to them. i mean, what does china want from the us in order to make that relationship? so i hesitate to say mohan mooney as all the old productive, even perhaps less on tagging this stick is, is what i'm, i'm looking for here. how does a china feel about investing political capital into developing relations with the

ministration? but maybe because there's an election next year gone in 18 months. yeah, and that's always the struggle i think dealing with united states is that in some sense, it's structurally incapable of honoring any long term agreements. adrian. but i think the issue here is that from the chinese perspective, we, us behavior paints a pretty clear picture that the us is looking to work china's growth and development. so the question is, what is trying to doing and response to this? and i think it's reaction is based on a very accurate reading of the prevailing power dynamics. so a china always has been committed to working with any country, including the united states on the basis of mutual respect and respect for sovereignty. but i think starting march 2021 of the last good meeting, we can see

a see change. we're trying it has said if we can't make you see the light america, we will make you feel the heat. and that was shown in the very sharp exchanges in alaska, but also i think, shown in these up looming restrictions with gallium and germanium through not only important comp in inputs for semiconductors but also for high powered radar. which of course, is crucial for uh, many aspects of the american military. so i think china is showing that it's willing to go toe to toe with the u. s. a. and make them feel the he, what is trying to want to answer your question. i think is the recognition that china really is an e cool of the united states. and what's happening in the us is that it's going through these 5 stages of grief, from denial,

anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. so i would say that the secretary yelling is certainly in the bar and getting phase, but we still have key republican, some others in the us that are still in the denial and anger phase. so i think what china is hoping for is for the us to move as quickly as possible to the acceptance phase, and that will lead to a much more harmonious, prosperous, not peaceful world. okay, but the board about the election next year, of course, and a said that are investing political capital when, when everything could change again next year at the end of next year. and here's the ironic thing. uh, so i think that's a very good point. i think certainly working with whoever is in power at the time is still a chinese priority. but if trump does get re elected, i think you're something to, to know to could be in some ways very positive for china. he's on record saying

that taiwan is very close to china and far away from us. so what can we actually do about it, which some is interpreted to mean that he recognizes the writing on the wall and may actually very pragmatic way. so adrian knew that could be an argument that it might make sense to wait and see what happens in 2024. but on the other hand, a time is always precious. and i think that, you know, china has been very vigorous in pursuing diplomacy, not just with the united states, but with the e u. many other countries around the world, saudi arabia, ron, the solomon islands, and doris. and i don't think that will change pool um, would you agree with what i did? and it was saying that about the, the anger phase and the acceptance phase. and we heard something similar from a warrick in, in our reports at the beginning of the program when he was talking about the,

the us not realizing that we're at the beginning of a new multi polar world or the, the, the us is still hoping and wishing that things were different. yeah, well, i think that's it, that maybe the maybe a good way to characterize it. but i think you know, that in the us there's, there's, there's sort of this new bipartisan agreement that china represents this, this, uh, this threat that, and some, some terminal impacts essential threat um to, to us, to interest them. so you have this, this policy that by the administration has adopted called a line and best and compete them. and the alignment part of that is building coalitions in europe and asia with an eye to sort of containing china is rise as a technology power. so this is, this is, this is sort of a c change and in washington that i think will survive a, even a change in an administration. and so the challenge then for china is to,

is to determine how to engage with, give a, given the sort of, the, the, the best best bipartisan agreement on china. and try to get back to some level of above normality in terms of diplomacy. and that, that's what we're seeing with, with, with these visits now. and i think china though is, is, is taking a longer term view and it is concerned about the potential and in 2024 for there to be, you know, what, the change and ministration. but i think they're, they're, they're sort of envisioning, i think officials are, are not, they'll have any, any, any of the illusion that the us policy is going to change significantly. and we have to go back to some, to the sort of obama era or, or, you know, an area where, where, where there were, there was a different approach to china and trying it wasn't, wasn't really polluted. and at that point is that as, as, as it is not with washington as a real appear appear competitor, the only peer competitor in it and a challenge and a threat. right?

so bad that us. busy it is not going to change. okay, i'll go with a change of instructions. i think basically have to adapt. okay, i'm sorry, sorry, b l, sorry to close you down, pull up a time is, is, is again so, so want to get a couple of questions into elizabeth, to and elizabeth to an extent then all of the code on the can trade relations key to maintaining a stable, copious relationship between the 2 countries, no matter what the tension on, on human rights issues, taiwan territorial disputes and such the to meet each other for the, for the sake of their economies. and the economies are definitely so intertwined that decoupling is going to be very difficult. i know this turned you risking is being thrown around rather than the coupling. there are 2 things you know that going on. you know, of course, in china there is something you can to a indigenous ation program going on. it's called made in china 2025 and she's in

pain. came up with this um, just a few years ago. and the intent for that is a to bake china less reliance on the united states and the rest of the world. that is the chinese economy. but also the civil military, you know, fusion industry less reliance on the united states on the west. but jamaica was more dependent on the chinese economy. and so, um, as you can see, what has been happening in china in recent years, as the we growth of the state in the economy. you know, since stop shop things, reform and open english started in 1979. china who had been moving towards adopting more market oriented principals. but after she just came to power in 2012 and then the accelerated and especially with the appointments um for the phone as the

vice premier with an economic portfolio, you see the re introduce reintroduction of this. okay. and i, yes, the saying we need more markets, the price because they are not more state. so that's a really big difference. elizabeth, again, sorry, sort of thought and we've got about a minute and a half left. and the agenda you haven't set the visit was aimed at putting a floor under the turbulence in the relationship between the 2 countries. did she? did she do that? do you think and where did you see that the relationship going now they went all of a sudden done the 2 countries need each other. i think certainly various some dependencies. but i think that deeds not words. so what will determine the future of the relationship will be american actions? not so much of the rec. for beach florida is prepared for any event to ality.

that happens. but i think, you know, the hope is that there is a pot of gold at the end of this rainbow. uh that uh that the young ones visit represents. and that there can be a, a win win outcome is the chinese like to say, okay, the, we're gonna have to leave it manufacturing to, to all of your pull through zillow, elizabeth lazarus, and, and a mock. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again at any time by going to the website that i'll just 0 . don't com for further discussion on this topic, join us on facebook page. you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash a inside story out. of course you can join the conversation on twitter, handle that age right inside story from me, adrian said again on the team here and so on. thanks for watching. we'll see you again by from the

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