we, i'm listening freedom shot soldiers to 16 people, corruption, compassion outages. 0 was a selection of the best films from across our network of channels. media has accused, as if i showed up costing off the dispute region of the border of color box. as a vice john says it's active to stop smuggling, but why has trouble with fund once again? i'm term you broke up to succeed in bringing a long term solution. this is inside story, the other. welcome to the program. i'm adrian instead of going to disputed region of

know going to kind of back has been a source of conflict between now media and as a by john for more than 30 is the 2 side. so for several boys, the most recent in 2020, the going to kind of back is internationally recognized as positive as a by john, but it's also claimed by media. now this increased tension once again without media saying that the area has been effectively cut off by as a by john. well, this is the leaders of both countries or in brussels for brought a piece to mediated by the european union will get so i guess in just a moment. but 1st, the report from alpha 0 satisfied us to thousands of people protesting against azerbaijan, disclosure of the latch. in cordele, it's a main road that connects all menia with the disputed region of nicole in a car. but as we are by john has accused the armenian branch of the international red cross of allowing its vehicles to be used to smuggling. in a statement the i c l. c said that no unauthorized goods have been found. an old

cargo is subject to a customs check by us or by john people in the corner car box, say they on the brocade and that the roads closure is a humanitarian crisis. if you're not concerned about their or the many people with health problems, many communities are successively deprived of to put trinity to have drinking water, presidents or food or communities far from the capital have become prisoners. and on the connection for many regional centers and the capital is phone call you and talk to you just real buggy in february ordered as our by john to allow free movements of people and goods through the latch and cargile. but that hasn't happened. the 5 kilometer road is in the corner car box only land link with armenia . it's a mountainous region with a 95 percent estimate communion, population that lies within as are by jones territory. it's recognized internationally as positive as are by john. but controlled by ethnic on union forces, the former soviet republics

a fort to was the control of nicole know car box, including a 6 you will that's ended in the ceasefire in 1994. then again, in 2020, when more than 5000 people were killed while the russian broke could si fi and did, that's conflicts and domino was forced to give out much of the land. it controls like a tensions have continued to gorgeous. earlier this you pro is there by showing the act of his book till throwed several times costing of the 120000 people who live in the corner car about media. and the officials accused him of creating food and fuel shortages you rusher in the us has since been trying to find solutions in an attempt to settle a decades long comp. firefighter for inside story. so

let's bring it out, i guess for today's discussion from the other found with joint by richard. get a go see. and who directs the think tank? regional studies center from bar crew as me to jennifer jennifer of who is on the board of the center of analysis of international relations. and from his from bowl but joined by matt price that has a full of us on best the to as a by john, thank you all for being with us. richard. let's start with you. as a by john says that the card or the lunch in colorado was being used for the illegal transfer of goods. and the median militias are present in the going to kind of box. so it's actions of justifiable. what's your response to that? well unfortunately it's a bit disingenuous. this is now entering the 7 model of an ongoing blockade of newborn a car law in pa. busy since last december, what i would actually cite the united states and the european. ready union, which are on the record in terms of expressing concern over worsening is mandatory

in crisis. and it's just that you might have periods and the crisis is made or what, what do you make of that? um, as about john as being disingenuous here. uh, i mean, it says that it's that the lunch in colorado is illegally blocked, but the measures a clearly planned, other aimed of creating conditions, incompressible with life for the people. i'm not going to kind of back who are being subjected quotes to ethnic cleansing. what's your response? i will say this is absolutely ridiculous to call it as my cleansing 1st of all, because as i've heard, john has not impulse the blockade and election is part of as or by john's territory, which was returned to us by john as a result. of the 4 to 4 day war back in 2020 and as about john's, absolute right is to maintain control over his quarters and no country should be blamed for wanting to maintain a control lower as border, especially the borders which were being used for illegal activities. for example, like

a feeding the military material and all the military transportation materials to the motor meeting. i mean, i'm malicious in the parts of pfizer, which are new territories that are currently under supervision of the russian military forces and as a bridge and has getting warnings about this for a long time. at luncheon road is being used for military purposes for illegal smuggling of as a by johns mineral resources that were being exported for a long time. however, this the result space and warnings were not heated. election road is supposed to be used only for me with a fully, for humanitarian purposes and civilian purposes. unfortunately, this didn't happen. so, but as a bunch on did finally, on in april, it's finally established a border control post election road, which is working. and if you go to online uh, social networks and everywhere you can see the videos of armenian residents passing peacefully through these territories. so the border control post provided that it is being check whatever is being brought to as a bunch on it territory. so there's no room for the illegal activities now,

no room for smuggling any minute and resources of the john or any armaments to outcome in malicious. so i think this is just the frustration of our menus side because as much as finally maintained its control over its borders. so it's not of that a situation that is to grow cassandra scribe. so we kind of talk about this thing, friends. and by the way, this was also substantiated by the international court of justice rules inc, which rejected our menus, but the demands against us about jobs. so it's not, it's okay. whatever they want to portray is, i'll get to message just about that. but i want to get richard a, a chance to come back on on what he just heard that richard as well, i would add that it's most distressing and disturbing that this has now separate and models of an escalation that includes the cut off with natural gas theater, appearance of electricity added regardless of the issue, the bigger outcome is more distressing in that these actions files are been drawn,

doing very little to inspire confidence in any opportunity for. busy more peace and it's the international committee for the red. busy and the small contingent of washing peacekeepers, several, the only ones which free access in and out of the car was put on. unfortunately, the latest escalation has directly impeded even the red cross massive we had talked last month in washington business trying natural between between the presidents of the european council. i mean, he is private as soon as the by jones president in brussels this weekend, waterhope is the that these 2 sides. can i have a, achieve a long lasting, sustainable disagreement, a well, adrian, i'm a, i'm a perpetual optimist. i mean, i had to be as a diplomat um, but there have been moments of dark pessimism in my own mind when it comes to the

kind of conflict. but now i think the momentum is positive and quite strong. you have clearly presidents that lead of who wants a peace agreement and prime minister passing on of our media, who also does a prime minister. partially. john made a remarkable declaration a few weeks ago saying, armine, it recognizes the territorial integrity of us, or by john and on a scale that that includes caught our bach. any area where our median troops are still present. that's remarkable. as similarly, i think we've seen showing the show as he mentioned president of the european council and, and he blinked in us secretary of state, also expressing not just hold but optimism that as long as both sides continue to show up goodwill, that a peace treaty is is within reach, but there are opponents. there are radicals on both sides, but indeed, i think, particularly in our media, pushing young faces an uphill battle. his popularity has plummeted since he's

signed onto the ceasefire statement that ended the military phase of the 2nd quarter about work. and there are a lot of extreme nationalists who i think, really don't want there to be a peace agreement. i think the vast majority of armenian citizens, however, do want a peace agreement. and so i think that's why we use impression young show such courage and continue pressing ahead for that agreement. the key of course, is for situations like the one on watching corporate or to de escalate. and to get to a point where the, the controls and the flow of people and goods are going at a normal pace. i hope we will get there. that's really what this as about your own blog from these tools. what would a solution to the nikoto kind of our question look like to as a, by sean, as well uh, solution to uh, i wouldn't say not going to clear about conflict because our position is that the conflict is over and now we want to work on the post conflict normalization and establishment of bilateral relations with armenia. by the way,

the drop piece piece treated that as being current we discussed is also called the normalization establishment piece tree, the normalization of the assumption of biological relations with armine, our expectation, 1st and foremost, is the mutual recognition of sovereignty and territory integrity on both sides both sides and a kind of under this under status then off and we are ready to recognize that we have recognized pardon me as territory integrity and so data armenia. they also recognized as origin territorial integrity during the last meeting between the leaders of the countries with the mediation of the rich in you and you had a territories have been recognized in terms of figures figuratively like 2980 for i mean that 86.6 for us or by john. so in theory, they have recognized territory and 3rd to integrity, including heart media. and i, we have heard from mr. price and i subscribe these worth that of mr. prussian yet has also been wall coal about expressing his supporters of our jobs territory and target. the problem is that there are a bunch just forces going armeno,

who do not one piece and for us in order to achieve a piece. again, as i said, and i, i kind of repeat this enough is the recognition of territorial integrity and these privileges would like to manipulate was the idea of parents, old integrity and stipulate that will turn towards integrity for us about john excludes car boss and feel clear about there should be some other arrangements. this is unacceptable for us or by john. therefore with thing, the number one perspective and number one precondition is the recognition of territorial integrity of both countries. and i think we are very close to that. we are close to that, but we have to make sure that those through a bunch of sources do not under uh, let's say i under the bed disrupt the entire process and i want to come back to election road issue, mr. mr. greg or something mentioned the guy that even icbc is prevented from moving out. it is so with the election road that's absolutely not true because a lot, you know, it has been open from the very 1st day for all the military and purposes, including for i c r c. vehicles at old dominion. patients have been moving back and

forth from last year or by the way, recently the r c, r c, we close were captured trans transferring and the smuggling dealer go goods that were on declared according to us about just registration so that we can see that even ice there's, there's kind of a subject or an eviction on, unfortunately through the i see, i see that they're supposed to say that the i c, i'll take this band step. but that they say that that, that they're all the other thing that they said that they weren't individual drivers, and they weren't punished by, they didn't know all the fact that it actually happened. so it actually shows that there is, in the absolute necessity to install border control points where they are because as we see the integrates there was it still continue on unfortunately. okay, richard, of course, at the center of this is a unfolding humanitarian crisis. i mean, he is foreigners, the roads on twitter, this week of the supplement. the blockade update the lunch in colorado. and total siege of the go to kind of our got people is having a data reversible and devastating impact on the lives of people that he went on to

claim the 2 young children had died as a direct consequence of the serious humanitarian situation. as he described it, and that in the 21st century, this should not be tolerated. what i, what are the, what, what daily life is like right now for the people of the going to kind of back as well. unfortunately, it's marked by severe shortages. so food shortages of critically need. ready medicines and unfortunate. ringback in some new climate the uncertainty and insecurity where it's very much a medieval siege if you will. remember. busy the. busy name of thrones. it's most distressing for another reason, however, that these actions why also but john tenant, you only undermine the army during government as it for lock that we are over. it is strength of. busy any kind of constituency in our media again speech it is. busy dangerous and rather destructive. secondly,

the why lateral diplomacy is very much that by lateral, it's between our media and also bridge on negotiating and it through state peace treaty. it's not directly related to newborn oak horrible. this also tends to exacerbate concern not for the beach treaty, but some of the day after the peach street, i'm greatly worried about the necessity being to invest in a durable lasting piece. and this current blockade actually creates a new environment on a certain team that directly threatens any kind of paint for a durable piece just as barriers you want to try to come back on. that's what are your thoughts? yeah. yeah, uh 1st of all about those kids that side unfortunately they were the police report by the way distributed that these kids unfortunate the died because of hate. they remained in the cost environment in the car and they for over suffocated because of

the heat. so i understand that armenian side would like to use this fact as a propaganda to use against us or by john and again to talked about this uh, quote unquote located issue. which as i said in the, in the beginning, which was totally unconditional or refuted. also by the international court of justice, this wasn't the case or mr or grab as john also spoke about the negotiations and the fees between our media as a bridge on a happening, which potentially is excluding horrible. well, you'll see. that's what i said in the beginning that for us, for as a by john it's number one issue that our media recognizes as a by john's territorial integrity, including car box within the boundaries that as a bridge on our media became independent after this over to and then this, uh, this integrated, so car box was part of pfizer by john and army. it has to recognize which by the way, did they do to recognize by recognizing as or by jobs here as well. and so it goes into the super, it's ugly. and within the borders of $86.00,

a 1000 square kilometers. however, the fact is that they would like to manipulate was the idea that terry tool integrity for us to put you on excludes court of law, which is unacceptable. absolutely unacceptable that. but i'm sure that armina will get there, and that we are still working towards peace and this issues will be also your iron data. okay. our, our account at this moment in time, verify what you say about the kids. what i can do is report what i mean is foreign minister rose on twitter and there's, there's your version of events as well match up. again, you say the momentum is, is positive here towards peace. i just wanted this. does rush still has any role in, in bringing about peace between the 2 sides and keeping the peace? is it possible you've got these talks about going on? as we said in washington and over the weekend in, in, in brussels, the vatican, the secretary of state even visited the region earlier. but is it possible to reach

any kind of lasting settlement without russian engagement? yeah, i think it is. i mean, if you asked me this question when i was us the us mediated, it was a kind of conflict and i had a russian ambassador, a counterpart in a french one. then i would have said, no, russia, of course, he's the biggest regional player and has at that time had been quite constructive and helping the 2 sides come closer and closer together with our joint mediation. but that all changed with russia is the 2nd invasion of ukraine last year. it's, it's impossible to conceive of a country that is committing war crimes for perhaps crimes against humanity, with one of his neighbors and being a peace maker with 2 of its other neighbors. it's just inconceivable. on top of that, president putin is now seen as being sold politically weekend. but by that promotion you need that he really doesn't have much clout him in, in,

in us or by joining our media. having said that, though, i think the leaders of us are by john intermedia realize that it's important not too familiar president to do so from time to time fruits and convince the leaders and they make progress at those discussions. but the real action, the real action is happening in the talks that are broke, or by you council president michelle and, and us secretary of state blinking. and who then it may, shouldn't be russia can continue to be russia to the who should keep the pace once once a once the lasting piece deal is reached. yeah, it's a great question. so there are russian peacekeepers on the ground now, originally 1900 of them. and that's because russia had the only potential peace keeping force that was ready to be deployed immediately on november 10th, 2020, when the military phase of the war ended. but throughout my period as the us mediator, we all, we, the us and france always rejected the idea that the final peacekeeping force could be, could be russian. there's

a rule of un peacekeeping that you never have peacekeeping troops from combatants in the conflict or from neighboring states. and russia is obviously a neighboring state. so we had always foreseen that the o. s. c. e, for example, which would invent a peacekeeping force. so i think now there's going to have to be some sort of ad hoc arrangement that's mutually agreed by us or by john and armenia. russia will oppose any peacekeeping force. that is not russians. but i think probably russia's vote is not going to meet as much now as it would have in the past. a man, i'm just thinking aloud here how. how does that, the regional rivalry between turkey and russia play into this right now? particularly considering recent events with, with turkey appearing to smell russia over the will and ukraine and would a following of relations between armenia. and so if you benefit the whole region and the situation as a whole, or i'm, i extra heading into the realms of a fantasy and a wish thinking that, oh, not at all. well,

i mean in terms of normalize relations between our media entity. so those 2 countries have been working on that for a long time. i mean, since, since basically the end of the 2nd car about 4. but turkey never wants to move faster than makes us or by john comfortable. and so now us are by john. i think he is comfortable, he wants to see armine, a restore, it's it's trade ties and transportation ties both with us or by john in our media as a way to lay the foundation for lasting piece. the launching court or dispute is something separate. i mean, major reintegration of our media into the regional economy, i'm convinced is something that both bako and hunger, a wanton of force, that would be great for regional stability unless you're rusher or iran that want to play their own specific games and keep maybe the complex modeling a bit, as far as tricky and russian relations are concerned, you're turkish leaders and the turkish people know they fought more wars against russia than any other countries throughout ottoman and russian and imperial history

. so the turkish side never wants to back down in front of russia, and therefore has been a strong supporter of ukraine, but nor doesn't want to provoke russia unnecessarily. and therefore tricky is not joining the sanctions against russia, nor has president data one come out as voice it personally attacking or criticizing president there to one s a has president bite. and i think cooking actually respects everyone's approach. and keep in mind that turkey, it does have a small contingent of peacekeepers on the ground in azerbaijan, much smaller than the russian one. but those turkish peacekeepers are really their eyes in the years for nato, i think, to, to, to help keep the rushing peacekeepers honest. a richard, let's just sort of expand upon something you touched upon in a, in a previous onset, about what the future holds for these 2 countries in terms of the co existence that the neighbors, they caught avoid. that fact, do you see any hope of, of

a reconciliation or refreshment? a you said it yourself, you, you worry about what happens off to a piece, tracy assigned why, as well as specifically i was a little wild on. fortunately the possibility for reconsider. ready ocean or approach more any time soon. however, armine is approach to both starkey and algebra. john is based on pursuit of normalization diplomatic relations and normalizing the situation as the basic 1st step for currency and international relations. this is very much realistic. however, i am concerned regarding i was overdrawn due so that word for the band. so i can start with the proper rather understandable, but dangerous use of bella cross rhetoric from the also bridge on the on for a terry and government. i'm worried about the absence of genuine democracy will be

an impediment to ensure elastic peaks or, or i do think that this is a time for de escalation. in other words, if, as our algebra, johnny guest has know that if i remember, john is correct in the conflict is resolved and the negotiations are no. ready longer opposed, nope, on our car wall then then lift the blockade engaged in dialogue with the elected representatives of our media and in the corner car box, the argument government's position is not so much more moderate in this regard as mirror are you are you optimistic that a piece deal can be done on soon and they will last if i can just jump in. now let me see other issues. while as of right, john is very optimistic that reconciliation can happen and we are working on again, program on great integration of armenian population of also for john to as i've

been trying to society based on our constitution, they will have older rights insured. and i don't want to be a pest domestic, like our, i mean youngest, the expressed his ideas. i'm sure that answered, but john, in our medium population, can live together. they have lived together for many decades during the solvent times they lived together in the 3rd countries, they can live together even as a bridge as well. i think this is a very deterministic statement to say that recalculation kind of happened. it's kind of happened that it will happen, and my, my worst also that mark my words authorize about john wants to adult to is harming and residents can. they was already one meeting in the con kennedy with armine residents as diverge on a representative. and unfortunately, the next invitation, extended by as it by john to where i'm and your representatives were turned down because they were kind of dictated by those separate us in remaining and liberated as a projected territory. because they wanted to speak only was the presence refreshing peacekeepers that sound good. all right, i'll,

i'm sorry to cut you off. i'm going to, we've got about a minute left. met. the final thoughts are yours. do you share as mayor is optimism that all of the 3 of us going to be back to this time next year as will be about what went wrong? a shift. i think we're going to be hopefully back with you adrian talking about what went right. yes. as i said in my opening remarks, i am optimistic, it's clear that the national leaders of both countries wants a peace treaty it's. it's clear also that there's publications to an extent earlier on the as or by johnny side a several months ago along the lodging. court, or when some journalist insisted on russian peacekeepers pushing into the armenian occupied area that's supposed to return to azerbaijan. the control of the russian peacekeepers said no, we're not going to of problem be part of that project ation. and now i think what we heard about with the i c r c trucks bringing in unacceptable and material to our

meeting and soldiers who are supposed to have left already by the way. those eyes are by johnny areas. that's also a propagation. so it's time to end all those provocations and give space for the national leaders to make the difficult compromises that everybody, at least outside of the extreme, is want to see happen. and i'm optimistic that we'll have okay. that we've got a random many thanks. indeed, richard, to get to go see, and it's made a jeff at over at matt prize up to being part of today's inside story. and thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the website l 0 dot com for further discussion on this issue, join us at our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash a inside story. and of course, you can join the conversation on twitter handle at h a insight story from me, adrian, for the good. how the team here. and so thanks for being with us. we'll see you again, bye for now the, the

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