to the next step, besides a thrice next talk to a degree peace, clint. on a voyage to the window, see to highlight the importance of protecting this from child on the top to cover system against an expanding list of non made threats. beneath the surface of this desolation is just tv with life. so the remote and celtic century on how to 0 media has accused as a vice out of counseling office to dispute that region doesn't have going have kind of a box. as a vice john says it's active to stop smuggling, but why has trouble returned once again? and can you bro, could folks succeed in bringing a long term solution? this is inside story, the

hello. welcome to the program on adrian. instead of going to the dispute region of know, go to cadillac has been a source of conflict between all media and as a by john for more than 30 is the 2 sides of fort several. was the most recent in 2020. the going to kind of back is internationally recognized as positive as a by john, but it's also claimed by media. now this increased tension once again without media saying that the area has been effectively cut off by as a by john. well, this is the leaders of both countries or in brussels for broad a peaceful, mediated by the european union will get so, i guess in just a moment. but 1st the report from alpha 0 satisfied us to thousands of people protesting against azerbaijan. disclosure of the latch in cordele, it's a main road that connects all menia with the disputed region of nicole in a car, but as or by john has accused the armenian branch of the international red cross of

allowing its vehicles to be used to smuggling in a statement the i c l. c said that no unauthorized goods have been found. an old call go is subject to a customs checked by us or by john. people in the corner car box say they on the blockades and that the roads closure is a humanitarian crisis. if you're not concerned about their already many people with health problems, many communities are successively deprived of to put trinity to have drinking water . presidential food communities far from the capital, have become prisoners. and on the connection for many regional centers and the capital is phone call you and talk to you just real buggy in february ordered as our by john to allow free movements of people and goods through the latch and cargile. but that hasn't happened. the 5 columbus a road is in the corner car box own the land link with armenia. it's a mountainous region with a 95 percent estimate communion, population that lies within as are by jones territory. it's recognized

internationally as parts of as are by john, but controlled by ethnic armenian forces. the former soviet republics, a fort to was the control of nicole know car box, including a 6 you will that's ended in the cease fire in 1994. then again, in 2020, when more than 5000 people were killed while the russian broke could si fi and did, that's conflicts and domino was forced to give out much of the lines. it controls like a tensions have continued to gorgeous. earlier this you pro, is there by showing the activists brooks off the road several times costing of the 120000 people who live in the corner car about or median officials accused him of creating food and fuel shortages you rusher in the us has since been trying to find solutions in an attempt to settle a decades long comp. firefighter for inside story.

so let's bring it out. guess for today's discussion from the other phone, we're joined by richard. get a go see. and who directs the think tank? regional studies center from bar crew as me to jennifer jennifer of who is on the board of the center of analysis of international relations. and from this from bobo joined by matt price. here's the full of us on best of the to as a by john, thank you all for being with us. richard. let's start with you. as a by john says that the card or the lunch in colorado was being used for the illegal transfer of goods that are median militias, a present in the going to kind of box. so it's actions of justifiable. what's your response to that? well unfortunately it's a bit disingenuous. this is now entering the 7 model of an ongoing blockade of newborn a car law. employ. busy since last december, what i would actually cite the united states and the european. ready union which

are on the record in terms of expressing concern over a worsening demand if they're in crisis. and it's just that you might have period and the crisis is made or what, what do you make of that? um, as about john is being disingenuous. yeah. i mean, it says that it's that but, but luxury and colorado is illegally blocked but the measures a clearly planned, other aimed at creating conditions, incompressible with life for the people in the going to kind of back who are being subjected quotes to ethnic cleansing. what's your response? i will say this is absolutely ridiculous to call it as my cleansing 1st of all, because as of right, john has not impulse. the blockade and election is part of us or by john's territory, which was returned to us or by john as a result of the 4 to 4 day war back in 2020. and as about john's absolute right is to maintain control over his borders,

and no country should be blamed for wanting to maintain a control lower as border, especially the borders which were being used for illegal activities. for example, like a feeding the military material and all the military transportation materials to the motor meeting. i mean, i'm malicious in the parts of pfizer. we're trying new territories that are currently under supervision of the russian military forces and as a bridge and has getting warnings about this for a long time. at luncheon road is being used for military purposes for illegal smuggling of as of jobs, mineral resources that were being exported for a long time. however, this the result space and warnings were not heated. election road is supposed to be used only for me only for humanitarian purposes and civilian purposes. unfortunately, this didn't happen. so what as a bunch on did finally on it in april, it finally established a border control post election road, which is working. and if you go to online uh, social networks and everywhere you can see the videos of armenian residents pasting

peacefully through these territories. so the border control post provided that it is being check whatever is being brought to as a bunch on it territory. so there's no room for the illegal activities. now, no room for smuggling any minute and a resources officer about john or any arguments to me and malicious. so i think this is just the frustration of our new side because of which as finally maintained its control over its borders. so it's not of that a situation that has to grow cassandra scribe. so we kind of talk about this in classic, by the way, this was also substantiated by the international court of justice rules inc, which rejected our menus, but the demands against positive jobs. so it's not secure. whatever they want to portray is. i'll get to message just about that, but i want to get a chance to come back on on what you just heard that richard as well. i would add that it's most distressing and disturbing that this is now separate in models. so an escalation that includes a cut off with natural gas theater,

appearance of electricity added regardless of the issue. the bigger outcome is more distressing in that these actions by also been drawn doing very little to inspire confidence in any opportunity for. busy more peace and it's the international committee for the red. busy and the small contingent of washing peacekeepers several, the only ones which free access in and out of the car was put on. unfortunately, the latest escalation has directly impeded it. busy the red cross masked, we had talked last month in washington. there's this tri natural between, between the presidents of the european council. i mean, he is private as soon as the by johns president in brussels this weekend. what hope is that, that these 2 sides can i have a, achieve a long lasting, sustainable disagreement?

well, adrian, i'm a, i'm a perpetual optimist. i mean, i had to be as a diplomat. um, but there have been moments of dark pessimism in my own mind when it comes to the kind of conflict. but now i think the momentum is positive and quite strong. you have clearly presidents that lead of who wants a peace agreement and prime minister passing on of our media, who also does a prime minister. partially. john made a remarkable declaration a few weeks ago saying, armine, it recognizes the territorial integrity of us, or by john and on a scale that that includes caught our bach. any area where our media and troops are still present. that's remarkable. as similarly, i think we've seen showing the show, as he mentioned, the president of the european council and anthony blinking us secretary of state, also expressing not just hold but optimism that as long as both sides continue to show up goodwill, that a peace treaty is, is within reach,

but there are opponents. there are radicals on both sides, but indeed i think you, particularly in our media pushing young faces an uphill battle. his popularity has plummeted since he's signed onto the ceasefire statement that ended the military phase of the 2nd quarter about work. and there are a lot of extreme nationalists who i think, really don't want there to be a peace agreement. i think the vast majority of armenian citizens, however, do want a peace agreement. and so i think that's why we use impression young show such courage and continue pressing ahead for that agreement. the key of course, is for situations like the one on my watching corporate or to de escalate. and to get to a point where the controls and the flow of people and goods are going at a normal pace. i hope we will get there is better. what this as a by john, born from these torch. what would a solution to the corner of kind of our question look like to as a by sean, as well uh, solution to uh,

i wouldn't say not gonna clear about conflict because our position is that the conflict is over. and now we want to work on the post compet normalization and establishment of bilateral relations with armenia. by the way, the drop pres piece treated as being current with this cost is also called the normalization and establishment piece tree. the normalization of the assumption to file actual relations with armine, our expectation, 1st and foremost, is the mutual recognition of sovereignty on territory integrity on both sides, both sides and a kind of under this under status then off. and we are ready to recognize that we have recognized pardon me as territorial integrity and so data armenia, they also recognized as origin territorial integrity during the last meeting between the leaders of the countries with the mediation of the or it and you and you had a territory is, had been recognized in terms of figures figuratively like 2980 for i mean that 86.6 for us or by john. so in theory they have recognized they return to the territory integrity, including heart media. and i, we have heard from mr. price and i subscribe these worth that of mr. prussian yet

has also been wall coal about expressing his supporters of john's territory and ticket. the problem is that there are a bunch just forces in armeno who do not one piece and for us in order to achieve that piece. again, as i said i, i kind of repeat this thing off is the recognition of territorial integrity and these privileges would like to manipulate was the idea of parents, old integrity and stipulate that world territorial integrity for us about john excludes car box and for crap off there should be some other arrangements. this is unacceptable for us or by john. therefore with thing, the number one perspective and number one precondition is the recognition of territorial integrity of both countries. and i think we are very close to that. we are close to that. but we have to make sure that those through a bunch of sources do not under uh lets say under uh that disrupt the entire process. and i want to come back to election road issue, mr. mr. greg or something mentioned a guy that even icbc is prevented from moving out. it is so the let you know, that's absolutely not true because a lot, you know,

it has been open from the very 1st day for all the military and purposes, including for i c r. c recalls and old dominion patients have been moving back and forth from last year road. by the way, recently the r c r c, we close for capture trans transferring and the smuggling dealer go goods that were on declared according to us about just legislation that we can see that even ice there's, there's kind of, is there a subject matter they shouldn't unfortunately for the i see, i see that this is to say that the i see okay, dispatch that. but that they say that that, that they're all, they were the just, they said that they were individual drivers and they were punished by they didn't know all the fact that it actually happened. so it actually shows that there is in the absolute necessity to install border control phones or they are because as we see the glass there was it still continue on unfortunately. okay, richard, of course with the center of this is a non folding. she monetary and crisis, i mean, he is foreigners, the roads on twitter this week of the supplement located update,

the launch in colorado and total siege of the go to kind of are people is having a data reversible and devastating impact on the lives of people that he went on to claim the 2 young children who died as a direct consequence of the serious humanitarian situation as he described it. and that in the 21st century, this should not be tolerated. what i, what are the, what, what daily life is like right now for the people of the going to kind of back as well. unfortunately, it's marked by severe shortages. so food shortages of critically need. ready medicines and unfortunately it's a new climate the uncertainty of insecurity where it's very much a medieval siege if you will. remo. busy the game of thrones. it's most distressing for another reason, however, that these actions why also but john pen and you only undermine the arguing government as it for locker. we're over,

it is strength of. busy any kind of constituency in our media again speech it is. busy dangerous and rather destructive 2nd glint, the bilateral diplomacy is very much that by lateral, it's between our media and also bridge on negotiating and it through state peace treaty. it's not directly related to newborn or horrible. this also tends to exacerbate concern not to the beach treaty, but for the day after the peach tree, i'm greatly worried about the necessity being to invest in a durable last being piece. and this current blockade was actually creates a new environment on certainty that directly threatens any kind of paint for a durable piece as, as barriers you want to try to come back on. that's what are your thoughts? yeah, yeah. uh, 1st of all about those kids that died. unfortunately they were the police report by

the way distributed that these kids unfortunate that died because of hate. they remained in the cost environment in the car and they fiber suffocated because of the heat. so i understand that armenian side would like to use this fact as a propaganda to use because i guess as a, by john and again to talked about this uh, quote unquote located issue, which as i said in the, in the beginning, which was totally unconditional or refuted, also by the international court of justice. this wasn't the case or mr or dr. as john also spoke about the negotiations and the fees between our media as a bridge on happening, which potentially is excluding horrible. well, you'll see, and that's what i said in the beginning that for us, for as a by john, it's number one issue that our media recognizes as a by john's territorial integrity, including car box within the boundaries that as a bridge in our media became independent after this over to and then this uh, this integrated,

so car box was part of pfizer by john and army. it has to recognize which by the way did they do to recognize by recognizing as a vegetarian. so integrity and figuratively and within the borders of $86.00, a 1000 square kilometers. however, the fact is that they would like to manipulate was the idea that terry tool integrity for us to put you on excludes court of law, which is unacceptable. absolutely unacceptable. and, but i'm sure that our main and we'll get there and that we are still working towards peace. and this issues will be also your iron data or icons at this moment in time. verify what you say about the kids. what i can do is report what i mean is foreign minister rose on twitter and there's, there's your version of events as well match up. again, you say the momentum is, is positive here towards peace. i just wanted this. does rush still has any role in, in bringing about peace between the 2 sides and keeping the peace?

is it possible you've got these talks about going on? as we said in washington and over the weekend in, in, in brussels, the vice it couldn't, the secretary of state even visited the region earlier. but is it possible to reach any kind of lasting settlement without russian engagement? yeah, i think it is. i mean, if you asked me this question when i was us the us mediated, it was a kind of conflict and i had a russian ambassador of counterpart in a french one. then i would have said no. russia, of course, is the biggest regional player and has at that time, had been quite constructive and helping the 2 sides come closer and closer together with our joint mediation. but that all changed with russia is the 2nd invasion of ukraine last year. it's, it's impossible to conceive of a country that is committing war crimes for perhaps crimes against humanity with one of his neighbors and being a peacemaker with 2 of his other neighbors. it's just inconceivable. on top of that,

president putin is now seen as being so politically weekend a bit by the precaution. you need that he really doesn't have much clout him in, in, in us or by joining our media. having said that though, i think the leaders of us are by john intermedia realize that it's important not too familiar. president putin so from time to time fruits and contains the leaders and they make progress at those discussions. but the real action, the real action is happening in the talks that are broke, or by you council president michelle and, and us secretary state blinking and who then it should have been russia can continue to be russia to the cushion. keep the pace once once a, once a lasting peace deal is reached. yeah, it's a great question. so there are russian peacekeepers on the ground now, originally 1900 of them. and that's because russia had the only potential peace keeping force that was ready to be deployed immediately on november 10th, 2020, when the military phase of the war ended. but throughout my period as the us

mediator, we all, we, the us and france always rejected the idea that the final peacekeeping force could be, could be russian. there's a rule of un peacekeeping that you never have peacekeeping troops from combatants in the conflict or from neighboring states. and russia is obviously a neighboring states. so we had always foreseen that the o. s. c. e, for example, which would invent a peacekeeping force. so i think now there's going to have to be some sort of ad hoc arrangement that's mutually agreed by us or by john and armenia. russia will oppose any peacekeeping force. that is not russians. but i think probably russia's boat is not going to meet as much now as it would have in the past, a matter of just thinking aloud here, how out is that the regional rivalry between turkey and russia play into this right now, particularly considering recent events with with turkey appearing to smell russia over the will and ukraine and would a following of relations between armenia. and so if you benefit the whole region

and the situation as a whole, or am i extra heading into the realms of a fantasy and a wish thinking that oh not at all less. i mean, in terms of normalize relations between armenia and turkey, those 2 countries have been working on that for a long time. i mean, since, since basically the end of the 2nd car about hor, um, but turkey never wants to move faster than makes us or by john comfortable. and so now us or by john, i think he is comfortable. he wants to see our media restore it's. it's tree ties and transportation ties both with hazard by john and our media as a way to lay the foundation for lasting piece the launching cord or dispute is something separate. i mean, major reintegration of our media into the regional economy. i'm convinced of something that both bako and hunk are a wanton of force that would be great for regional stability unless you're russia or e ron that want to play their own specific games and keep maybe the complex modeling

a bit. as far as tricky and russian relations are concerned, you're turkish leaders and the turkish people know they fought more wars against russia than any other countries throughout ottoman and russian and imperial history . so the turkish side never wants to back down in front of russia, and therefore has been a strong supporter of ukraine, but nor doesn't want to provoke russia unnecessarily. and therefore tricky is not joining the sanctions against russia, nor has president data one come out as voice it personally attacking or criticizing president there to want to say has president bite. and i think cooking actually respects are the ones approach. and keep in mind that turkey, it does have a small contingent of peacekeepers on the ground in azerbaijan, much smaller than the russian one. but those strictest peacekeepers are really their eyes in the years for nato. i think to, to, to help keep the russian peacekeepers honest. a richard, let's just go to expand upon something you touched upon in a previous onset about what the future holds for these 2 countries in terms of the

co existence that the neighbors they called avoid. that fact, do you see any hope of, of a reconciliation or refreshment? a you said it yourself, but you, you worry about what happens off to a piece. tracy assigned why i was specifically i was a little wild on. fortunately the possibility for reconsider. ready nation or were for tomorrow any time soon. however, our meeting is approach to both starkey and algebra. john is based on pursuit of normalization diplomatic relations and normalizing the situation as the basic 1st step for currency and international relations. this is very much realistic. however, i have a concern regarding i was overdrawn to you, so that worked for you. the bands again start with the proper rather understandable,

but dangerous use of bella course right away from the also. but johnny on forward carrying government, i'm worried about the absence of genuine democracy will be and i haven't been to ensure a lasting peace or, or i do think that this is a time for de escalation. in other words, if, as are also but johnny guest has know that if i remember john is correct in the conflict is resolved and the negotiations are no. ready longer above the car, well then then lift the block a engaged in dialogue with the elected representatives of our media. and in the corner car box, we are good in government's position is so much more moderate in this regard as me right? are you, are you optimistic that a piece still can be done on soon? and they will last if i can just jump in now let on a few of the issues. while as of right,

john is very optimistic that reconciliation can happen and we are working on again, program on great integration of armenian population of also for john to as i've been trying to society based on our constitution, they will have all the rights insured. and i don't want to be as domestic, like our, i mean, youngest, the expressed his ideas. i'm sure that as a bridge on an armenian population can live together. they have lived together for many decades during the solvent times they lived together in the 3rd countries. they can live together even as a bridge on as well. i think this has a very deterministic statement to say that recalculation kind of happened. it's kind of happened and it will happen. and my, my worst also that mark my words authorize about john wants to talk to a charming and residents can. they was already one meeting in the con kennedy with armine residents as coverage on a representative. and unfortunately, the next invitation, extended by, as or by john to or i'm and your representatives were turned down because they were kind of dictated by those separatists in remaining and liberated as

a projected territory. because they wanted to speak only with the pressure pressure and peacekeepers. that sounds good. oh, i guess i'll, i'm sorry to cut you off. i've got to, we've got about a minute left to match. the final thoughts are yours. do you share as mayor is optimism that all of the 3 of us going to be back to this time next year as will be about what went wrong? a shift. i think we're going to be hopefully back with you adrian talking about what went right. yes. as i said in my opening remarks, i am optimistic, it's clear that the national leaders of both countries wants a peace treaty it's. it's clear also that there's a publications to an extent earlier on the as or by johnny side a several months ago along the lodging. court, or when some journalist insisted on russian peacekeepers pushing into the armenian occupied area that's supposed to return to azerbaijan. the control of the russian peacekeepers said no,

we're not going to of problem be part of that proper cation. and now i think what we heard about with the i c r c trucks bringing in unacceptable and material to our meeting and soldiers who are supposed to have left already by the way. those eyes are by johnny areas. that's also a propagation. so it's time to end all those provocations and give space for the national leaders to make the difficult compromises that everybody, at least outside of the extreme is want to see happen. and i'm optimistic that that will happen. okay, that we've got a random many sites. indeed richard to get a go see and it's made a jeff photo map prize up to being part of today's inside story. and thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the websites with l 0 dot com for further discussion on this issue, join us at our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. and of course, you can join the conversation on twitter handle at h a inside story from me. adrian for the good. how the team here though, thanks for being with us. we'll see you again,

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